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Posted: 6/19/2011 12:50:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Not sure about military standards, but I know the local cops are asked to carry condition 1.
Personally, I'd never carry a 1911 condition 2. If I'm not running condition one, then I'm not planning to need my pistol in a hurry, in which case I carry my 1911 with the magazine in, but no rounds in the chamber (thus requiring me to rack the slide to fire). |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 1:27:15 PM EDT
[#2]
I worked an indoor range a while back and a question I was asked almost daily was "Sir, do you know that your weapon is charged?"
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Posted: 6/19/2011 1:33:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Military standard with the M1911 was Condition 3 carry, though of course once in combat some men opted to do their own thing. AFAIK the standard with the M9 (outside the wire) is Condition 2 with the safety engaged.
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Posted: 6/19/2011 1:54:16 PM EDT
[#4]
In combat, what came to be known as Condition One was accceptable.
In garrison or training, no. When I entered in 1984, the way we were taught to carry the 1911 was Condition 3: And it was that way for a long time: I found mention of this in the 3rd edition of U.S. MARINE CORPS SCORE BOOK -AND- RIFLEMAN'S INSTRUCTOR: For use with the U.S. Magazine Rifle Model 1903 and U.S. Rifle Model 1917: "The Pistol Course" starts on pg. 129 of the this manual, and item 277 states:
It is dangerous, however, to carry the pistol thus loaded, and, except in emergencies, the pistol should be carried with the chamber empty..." (p.133, Harllee, LtCol W.C., (1919). Philadelphia. (3rd ed.). International Printing Co.)
13. When the pistol is carried in the holster loaded, cocked and locked, the butt should be rotated away from the body, when drawing the pistol in order to avoid displacing the safety lock." (pp. 113-114, Leatherneck Assoc., (1 Sept 1950). Washington DC.)
When the pistol is carried in the holster loaded and locked, the butt should be rotated away from the body when drawing the pistol in order to avoid unlocking the safety lock." (p. 225, Leatherneck Assoc., 14th ed. (1 July 1984). Quantico VA.) |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 2:05:32 PM EDT
[#5]
It doesn't matter what the military does.
The military man's need for a pistol and the armed citizen's need for a pistol is vastly different. A machinegunner or mortarman is issued a pistol as a backup weapon. A backup weapon to his massive weapon. And a soldier has lots and lots of armed buddies. He has a radio or radioman who can call in more soldiers with guns and tanks and airplanes with bombs and artillery. The armed citizen is alone, for the most part, and needs his pistol defensively, reacting to a threat. Especially if it's "the rules" that make a soldier carry a pistol in condition 2 or 3. The rules are geared to the lowest common denominator. A private citizen can seek out his own training and be very proficient in the use of his pistol. A soldier should be a master of his weapons. So should a cop. Some are. Many aren't. It's easier for brass to say, "only carry an unloaded/halfloaded gun" than actually train the men. |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 3:05:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
It doesn't matter what the military does. This is the real answer, it's a curiosity at most. Normal military practice was condition 3. There are plenty of stories out there of insane things like slides safety wired shut, etc. None of which has any relevance to proper carry of the 1911 as a defensive arm by a competent person. Condition 2 is something from TV/Movies. Condition 1 is the proper condition for defensive carry of a 1911. If you're not comfortable with C1, get a DA pistol (or a P7) so you can properly carry C2. |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 3:11:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter what the military does. This is the real answer, it's a curiosity at most. Normal military practice was condition 3. There are plenty of stories out there of insane things like slides safety wired shut, etc. None of which has any relevance to proper carry of the 1911 as a defensive arm by a competent person. Condition 2 is something from TV/Movies. Known folks, mostly old timers, who carried Cond 2. I was surprised to see even see it suggested in a factory manual for a Browning Hi-Power. Not advocating such a practice of course. |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 3:50:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Patton carried revolvers in part as he had an AD with a 1911 in 1916. It would be interesting to know how he was carrying it at the time.
Condition 3 was commonly used in Europe by both military and police with both single and DA pistols. the reasoning was that it was safer than condition 2 and not any slower to bring the weapon into action, and probably safer under stress than condition 2. Racking the slide to chamber a round and cock the weapon is a gross motor movement and easier in some respects than cocking the hammer on many pistols. The same applies to the US military and the 1911. |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 6:09:01 PM EDT
[#9]
I don't know much about times in the past, but nowadays most military guys who are issued 1911s carry in condition one.
S/F |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 6:35:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter what the military does. This is the real answer, it's a curiosity at most. Normal military practice was condition 3. There are plenty of stories out there of insane things like slides safety wired shut, etc. None of which has any relevance to proper carry of the 1911 as a defensive arm by a competent person. Condition 2 is something from TV/Movies. Condition 1 is the proper condition for defensive carry of a 1911. If you're not comfortable with C1, get a DA pistol (or a P7) so you can properly carry C2. I just want to make clear, I carry condition 1 and have no issues with it. He remains unconvinced. I guess it's just what he was trained to do, and that's okay with me. I was just curious how the military was trained, so I could see it from his perspective. |
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Posted: 6/19/2011 6:47:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter what the military does. This is the real answer, it's a curiosity at most. Normal military practice was condition 3. There are plenty of stories out there of insane things like slides safety wired shut, etc. None of which has any relevance to proper carry of the 1911 as a defensive arm by a competent person. Condition 2 is something from TV/Movies. Condition 1 is the proper condition for defensive carry of a 1911. If you're not comfortable with C1, get a DA pistol (or a P7) so you can properly carry C2. I just want to make clear, I carry condition 1 and have no issues with it. He remains unconvinced. I guess it's just what he was trained to do, and that's okay with me. I was just curious how the military was trained, so I could see it from his perspective. As noted above, the conventional military application of sidearms is a lot different that of the armed citizen or law enforcement officer. For a more applicable military perspective, see the contemporary units that train/trained specifically to fight with the 1911. 
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Posted: 6/19/2011 7:47:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter what the military does. This is the real answer, it's a curiosity at most. Normal military practice was condition 3. There are plenty of stories out there of insane things like slides safety wired shut, etc. None of which has any relevance to proper carry of the 1911 as a defensive arm by a competent person. Condition 2 is something from TV/Movies. Known folks, mostly old timers, who carried Cond 2. I was surprised to see even see it suggested in a factory manual for a Browning Hi-Power. Not advocating such a practice of course. Condition 2 used to be pretty standard in the law enforcement community. It was also pretty standard to cock double action revolvers back then too. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 12:43:55 PM EDT
[#13]
the only military units that issue 1911's any more are special ops and they carry cocked and locked- regular joes during the time ofthe 1911's widespread issue were carrying with an empty chamber because that is how they were directed to. No relevance of this compared to civilian carry. the 1911 was NOT contrary to popular belief designed from day one for cocked and locked carry- this is a product of much more modern thinking
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Posted: 6/20/2011 5:10:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Is it that time of the month again? It doesn't matter what the military does, they did lots of things way back when for reasons that don't translate well to an armed citizen.
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Posted: 6/20/2011 7:02:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Military standard with the M1911 was Condition 3 carry, though of course once in combat some men opted to do their own thing. AFAIK the standard with the M9 (outside the wire) is Condition 2 with the safety engaged. The way we (AF) carry M9s is with a round chambered and the safety OFF. Air Force personnel issued a M9 are instructed to carry it this way. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 7:27:45 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Military standard with the M1911 was Condition 3 carry, though of course once in combat some men opted to do their own thing. AFAIK the standard with the M9 (outside the wire) is Condition 2 with the safety engaged. Umm, no, that is NOT the US Army standard for the M9. The standard of carry for an M9 in Combat Arms units is Condition 1 safety on. Perhaps some CS or CSS type units carry in Condition 2, but the general US Army standard outside the wire is Condition 1. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 8:02:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
So, my dad and I were having a debate the other day. He doesn't like me carrying a 1911 condition 1. He spent 20 years, 1967-87 or so, in the military and told me it's not the way the military carries it. I guess presumably he's referring to condition 2. I looked around google images and saw lots of WW2 pics with it being carried condition 2, but modern pictures mostly favored condition 1. So has the military had any policy on condition 1 or condition 2? Has it changed over the years? Thanks. too bad so sad. tell him to get over it and mind his own business. where? in combat? on base? shit. they go around with unloaded rifles and empty mags sometimes. what's your dad's freaking point?! just because somebody did something, doesn't mean it's the right way or a good way or the only way who gives a F what the military policy is or was? also, colors!! |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:20:40 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Really? That would mean the military bought a DA pistol with the intent of carrying it in condition 2 but is now carrying it condition 1? I find that hard to believe given the idea behind the adoption of a DA pistol was to use the DA feature.
Umm, no, that is NOT the US Army standard for the M9. The standard of carry for an M9 in Combat Arms units is Condition 1 safety on. Perhaps some CS or CSS type units carry in Condition 2, but the general US Army standard outside the wire is Condition 1. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:29:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military standard with the M1911 was Condition 3 carry, though of course once in combat some men opted to do their own thing. AFAIK the standard with the M9 (outside the wire) is Condition 2 with the safety engaged. Umm, no, that is NOT the US Army standard for the M9. The standard of carry for an M9 in Combat Arms units is Condition 1 safety on. Perhaps some CS or CSS type units carry in Condition 2, but the general US Army standard outside the wire is Condition 1. My fuckup, I was using 1911 terminology for the M9 - ie C2 as magazine inserted, chamber loaded, hammer down. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:59:12 AM EDT
[#20]
I know some Force guys who carried in 2 or 3 because of getting tired their pistols were cocked
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:13:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
I know some Force guys who carried in 2 or 3 because of getting tired their pistols were cocked They were tired of their pistols being ready to use? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:17:37 AM EDT
[#22]
Of being told their weapons were cocked. Most large instillations overseas are not gun friendly and often tell even Special Ops guys they cannot carry a condition 1 weapon.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:49:34 AM EDT
[#23]
when deployed most bases require the troops to either carry the gun unloaded but with ammo on hand or with empty chamber. Onec we loaded up to go out side the wire we would go to loaded chambers. I myself on my m9 would also take the safety off which was against protocol but since my holster covered up this fact it was never a problem.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 6:40:50 AM EDT
[#24]
I carry a condition 1 m9 everyday at work for the US Marine Corps. there is a direct order to the arming of security personnel that breaks it down so there will be zero questions on how your weapon will be carried. the m1911 is to be carried condition 1. the m16a4/m4 is to be carried condition 3. the reasoning behind this is drawing from a holster is one step of the escalation of force while racking a round in a long gun is a corresponding show of force.
I am not military police or spec ops or anything special. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:07:27 AM EDT
[#25]
I was taking a NRA Pistol class and a nervous Mother objected to me carrying cocked and locked. The instructor told her that was the way to carry a 1911. She had no problem with her legally blind son carrying a glock though.
 I have seen a army manual from around 1917, 1918 that said to carry cocked and locked with the holster flap secure. This was referring to cavalry use. I thought about keeping the reference but did not.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 8:17:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military standard with the M1911 was Condition 3 carry, though of course once in combat some men opted to do their own thing. AFAIK the standard with the M9 (outside the wire) is Condition 2 with the safety engaged. Umm, no, that is NOT the US Army standard for the M9. The standard of carry for an M9 in Combat Arms units is Condition 1 safety on. Perhaps some CS or CSS type units carry in Condition 2, but the general US Army standard outside the wire is Condition 1. My fuckup, I was using 1911 terminology for the M9 - ie C2 as magazine inserted, chamber loaded, hammer down. Roger. That would be Condition 1 or "Condition Red" for the M9. Mag in, chamber empty, safety on is Condition 2, or "Condition Amber". |
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