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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:21:49 AM EST
Yes, I know there are a million variations of 1911s, some of them are completely worn out, some are poorly built, and some are the Mercedes of pistols.

However, GENERALLY SPEAKING, have you personally noticed that 1911s as a whole tend to be more or less reliable in a combat course than:

(a) Sigs

(b) HKs

(c) Glocks

(d) Springfield XD

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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:48:47 AM EST
I have been to many classes. Glocks followed by 1911s are the predominate pistols present.

With the 1911 it usually has been magazine related. Occasional troubles with someone's reloads and that is not the gun. If it is a decent gun and properly lubricated it should run fine. I have seen a Kimber double and triple due to an aftermarket trigger.

With Glocks I have seen a fair number of problems all have been minor. Minor in the sense that they were easily remedied. A broke slide lock spring caused the slide to separate from the frame when the last round was fired. Seen that one twice, happened to me once. Worn magazines that caused the slide to fail to lock open. Broken trigger return springs. The biggest Glock failures have been associated with aftermarket parts. Aftermarket recoil spring assemblies that come apart during class.

XDs you will see a few but I haven't seen enough of them to have an opinion.

I do not see many Sigs or HKs. Mose people who have been to more than one class will get away from the DA/SA pistol and go with something that has a consistent trigger pull. Unless they are training with a duty weapon.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:52:41 AM EST
You, my freind have come to the wrong forum to ask that question. There are some who come to this forum with problems and find direction. If they encounter problems again we attempt to answer, educate, and problem solve. The majority of us here have 1911s that will run with the best of the plastic fantastics you refer to. I own a few of the pistols you list. I have taken tactical training courses and seen a lot of failures in a lot of different brands, most were the user. That said why would anyone take a pistol thats less than 110% to training or duty ? I can't speak for anyone else but my 1911s run like machine guns.

Gun parts are like Doritos. Screw up all you want. They'll make more.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 6:21:05 AM EST
"When basic morality and legal principle give you a green light to shoot the fucker, it's probably a good idea to shoot the fucker." - John_Wayne777
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Posted: 2/24/2010 6:53:59 AM EST
A decent quality 1911 with good mags should run just fine, that being said always bring a spare, hell I take a backup for my glock just in case.

Maintained properly 1911s are a great platform, just make sure you properly test it before showing up to the class.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 7:58:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Noaccount:
A decent quality 1911 with good mags should run just fine, that being said always bring a spare, hell I take a backup for my glock just in case.
.


2 is 1, 1 is none. I've never had ANY problem with any 1911 that was not directly attributable to out of spec ammo. Regardless, I always bring a spare. I'll even bring a spare revolver if shooting a wheel-gun class/course.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 8:19:22 AM EST
Like was stated by others above, I have seen primarily Glocks and 1911s in class. In that order of preference. Remember that everything can break. I was in a class once with a guy who had a Smith 38/357 revolver that broke! It seems that the breakages on 1911s that I have seen are 1)ammo related and 2)magazine related. I remember a particular case where a Colt Gold Cup would choke on every 3 or so rounds of Wolf but ran like a fine watch with any other ammo. I saw a Glock 19 with bad factory(!) ammo blow a plastic chunk off the side of the frame and shoot the mag out the bottom. Not surprisingly, once the mag was reinserted and the gun charged it still ran. The only time I have ever seen a XD in class it choked on one particular magazine because the mag got silty dust inside it and bound it up. I have not noticed any Sigs or HK's in class.

Generally speaking, a high quality 1911 with good mags will run without issues. Same with a Glock. For what its worth I have seen less failures with Glocks than 1911s, BUT, most of the 1911s were from crap manufacturers.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 8:24:11 AM EST
Guess that is why you never see 1911s in USPSA, IPSC, IDPA and steel challenge.

Those have been the real proving grounds for all things handgun related in the last 25 years or so. Every single development of note started out in those "combat" competitions. Overall....the 1911 platform still rules.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 9:39:04 AM EST
Lets just say that there is a reason it is recommended by Hilton Yam that departments who choose to adopt the 1911 have 2 pistols issued per-person.

Sorry, not a 1911 cool-aid drinker anymore.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:03:47 AM EST
Less. In my IDPA crowd if any gun is going to act up it's a 1911. And not because there are so many of them in use. Typically only have about a quarter of our folks running them.

Lots of reasons for it. Everybody and their brother makes them. So do it right, others don't. Something about the 1911 brings out the amatuer gunsmith in shooters, usually with bad results. Crappy reloads, cheap mags, inexperienced shooters (in my view a 1911 is not a pistol for a newbie).

My personal 1911s have worked BUT, I generally run hardball, I keep my guns clean and lubed, and I don't throw parts at them. I run my guns (all of my guns) stock.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 11:10:00 AM EST
ran 250 rds through my Ron Phillips 1911 in a Warrior School class, Marana AZ. 100deg, lots of sand. Dropped empty mags in the sandy gravel, reloaded them and reinserted them in the pistol.

No failures in the class. But did have trouble disassembling, as the sand had caused the bushing to seize up a bit. Once I got it apart, no problem.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 11:14:39 AM EST
I love my 1911 Colts, but I'd take an HK product if I were in your position.

Good luck, let us know what you decide and how the course goes.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 11:40:59 AM EST
Two five day handgun classes, both with 2000 rnds expended, same gun for each, Colt series 70.

No problems, no issues, just like the energizer bunny it kept on ticking.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 12:03:27 PM EST
In my opinion and experience (and I've been through my share of classes and matches) a 1911 is as reliable as anything else, but it takes more user involvement to get there. You have to know some basics about the platform, like how to set the proper extractor tension. This is more of an issue now that some makers routinely send guns out the door without addressing this very critical step. Most 1911 malfunctions I've seen involve feeding, and getting the extractor tension right is a huge part of this process.

Sometimes you'll see stupid shit, like Bubba's trigger shoe or extended slide stop cause problems. Rarely do I actually see things break on the 1911, mostly problems seem to be the result of maladjustment.

I've seen Glocks break trigger springs, guide rods, and develop slide cracks. Berettas commonly break trigger return springs and locking blocks. SIGs seem to have problems with extractors and magazines.

The last class I attended, the biggest problem was with a HK USP Compact. Somehow the magazine got stuck in the gun and tools were needed to remove it.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 12:49:00 PM EST
I have been through many courses and without a doubt, 1911's choke more than modern designs.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 12:56:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
I have been through many courses and without a doubt, 1911's choke more than modern designs.


+1


I assisted with a course where I witnessed a GI-style 1911 have its safety plunger assembly pop away from the frame and lock up the gun completely. Was it a crappy gun? Yep. Have I seen other 1911s choke? Yep.

If you have a 1911 that runs like a raped ape, then rock out - more power to you. I don't have the patience or money to sink into getting a 1911 to run as reliably as my G19.

Generally, 9mm Glocks tend to be pretty drama-free and that's what I've transitioned to after years of fiddling with other brands.

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Posted: 2/24/2010 1:10:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 1:14:39 PM EST by SGB]
"When basic morality and legal principle give you a green light to shoot the fucker, it's probably a good idea to shoot the fucker." - John_Wayne777
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Posted: 2/24/2010 1:29:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 1:34:24 PM EST by Geohans]
A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 1:53:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By Geohans:
A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list.



This.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:49:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Geohans:
A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list.


That's because the 1911 is harder to manufacture. Plastic parts just have to have the molding lines shaved off them after they come out of the injection molding machine.

No different than the cost difference between a Cav Arms lower compared to a forged lower. Different materials, different manufacturing processes. Just look at how much the Aluminum frames cost for Glocks.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 4:11:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By SGB:
Comparing a 1911 to say a Glock is like comparing Cars to a Volkswagen.

The 1911 is a design made by dozens of companies that range from shit to outstanding.

Glock is made by Glock.

Anecdotal evidence is as worthless as tits on a boar hog.

Most malfunctions I've observed where shooter induced, regardless of make, model or caliber.

I'm sure these guys do nothing but bitch about their damn shitty 1911's.

http://media.knoxnews.com/media/img/photos/2008/08/11/michael%20ferschke%2002_t607.jpg


God, next thing you know you're going to be telling us guys like Delta were/are using 1911s, or even the FBI's HRT. I mean, you'll probably even go on to try to convince everyone that the damn thing has been used since WW1 in the hands of service members abroad, in some horrible conditions- and ran just fine. All of that is obviously false.

You're just a troll SGB.




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Posted: 2/24/2010 4:23:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 4:24:49 PM EST by ALPHAGHOST]
less
less
less
less or on par...

h/w, it REALLY does depend on who makes the gun, who owns the gun and how well he/she maintains it *(just like anything else)...i've seen quite a few 1911s run just fine, but i've seen more 1911s not run too well after a bit



Originally Posted By Irene:
Yes, I know there are a million variations of 1911s, some of them are completely worn out, some are poorly built, and some are the Mercedes of pistols.

However, GENERALLY SPEAKING, have you personally noticed that 1911s as a whole tend to be more or less reliable in a combat course than:

(a) Sigs

(b) HKs

(c) Glocks

(d) Springfield XD



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Posted: 2/24/2010 4:41:17 PM EST
I've taken 3 high round count pistol claasses with a 1911

500 round count class with Kimber Pro CDP...no problems

350ish round count with a Wilson Combat...no problems

Another 500 round count class with one of my Nighthawks...no problems

Going to take another carbine/pistol class with my Nighthawk GRP...expecting no issues

My STHF vest is loaded up with 1911 mags...as well as my BOB.

I've seen 1911s, XDs, Glocks...all of them go down for one reason or another. Take what gun you feel comfortable with.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:22:21 PM EST
I've run one 2-day class (Tiger Valley Level 1 Pistol) that was almost 1600 rounds with my Baer and I had no malfunctions. I think I was the only one with a 1911 platform and most everyone else ran a 9mm or 40 cal Glock of some sort. Everyone made it through both days without any problems that I could remember.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:36:11 PM EST
I fired about 1000 rounds in a Matt Burkett class years ago.

Fired almost that many in a Todd Jarrett class too.(STI 2011)

I knew my custom 1911 would do just fine and it did.

I well tuned 1911 with quality magazines, and ammo is very reliable.

when I see 1911's choke, it's almost always, crap mags, crap handloads, or a crappy 1911

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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:43:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Geohans:
A more interesting way to frame the question: What $500 gun would be best for a class? 1911 might not make the list.


The 1911 is definitely not a platform that takes well to economizing.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 6:30:13 PM EST
My carry 1911 has been through maybe a half dozen classes and about a dozen competitions. It doesn't like S&B ammo at all. The case on Sellier and Bellot ammo is actually out of spec, or built to different specs than American ammo. Differences that are visibile to the naked eye, in the extractor groove. Other than that, it's been 100%.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 7:16:04 PM EST
Too much stuff on a 1911 must be "balanced", extractor tension, ejector profiling, slide-speed, etc. etc. With a Glock, SIG, HK, you just install the parts, and the spring takes care of extractor tension, and for *SOME* reason, they tend to have a great ejection pattern without having to dick with the ejector, etc.

Sure, a mid 80's Porsche can be made to run like a swiss watch, but a modern corvette is plug and play, and will wipe the floor with that porsche any day when it comes to the Nurburg or the 'strip. The only thing the Porsche has is sentimentality. Similar to the 1911, although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 8:27:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 8:36:49 PM EST by SGB]
"When basic morality and legal principle give you a green light to shoot the fucker, it's probably a good idea to shoot the fucker." - John_Wayne777
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Posted: 2/24/2010 8:43:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
...........although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity.

for everyone. Some of us don't mind the extra effort to maintain a pistol that give an edge (however slight) in a gunfight.


7 rounds vs. 12 rounds is quite an "edge" to give up for a trigger with a bit less travel. Bruce Gray can do some nice things with an HK trigger (stock production 1911 triggers suck anyways, imho, so it's apples to apples in my mind.). You also give up second-strike (may or may not matter to you).

So I don't think you can say a trigger gives you an edge in a gunfight that is worth more than another 6 rounds of ammo. I highly doubt you will notice the difference in a slicked up (or even stock) HK trigger when TSHTF. 6 rounds? Yeah, you might notice that, or maybe not, many OIS after-action reports mention that the officer didn't. If you can't even count your rounds, how the hell is a 2# lighter and bit crisper trigger going to register? Only on the square-range.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 8:59:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 9:02:43 PM EST by SGB]
"When basic morality and legal principle give you a green light to shoot the fucker, it's probably a good idea to shoot the fucker." - John_Wayne777
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Posted: 2/24/2010 9:27:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 9:44:43 PM EST by 12_gauge]
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
...........although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity.

for everyone. Some of us don't mind the extra effort to maintain a pistol that give an edge (however slight) in a gunfight.


7 rounds vs. 12 rounds is quite an "edge" to give up for a trigger with a bit less travel. Bruce Gray can do some nice things with an HK trigger (stock production 1911 triggers suck anyways, imho, so it's apples to apples in my mind.). You also give up second-strike (may or may not matter to you).

So I don't think you can say a trigger gives you an edge in a gunfight that is worth more than another 6 rounds of ammo. I highly doubt you will notice the difference in a slicked up (or even stock) HK trigger when TSHTF. 6 rounds? Yeah, you might notice that, or maybe not, many OIS after-action reports mention that the officer didn't. If you can't even count your rounds, how the hell is a 2# lighter and bit crisper trigger going to register? Only on the square-range.

In case you've forgotten there are dependable 10 round mags available for the 1911, with one in the pipe that makes 11. That dwindles your 8 vs 13 (5 round) advantage down to two rounds (11 vs 13)

Second strike is a fools errand, when the trigger goes click you don't waste time pulling the trigger again you do the drill.

The HK has a higher bore axis hence increased muzzle flip, giving the 1911 the advantage in recovery time back to target. The 1911's ergonomics coupled with it's single action straight to the rear trigger give it's shooter a platform that makes getting hits under stress (however marginal it may be) an advantage due to it's more forgiving nature.

I've shot HK's and their triggers generally suck.

Now the 1911 isn't for you, nothing wrong with drinking the H&K Koolaid. Doesn't mean it's the best or only flavor available, it's just the best flavor for you.

Only on the square-range

Oh please.......................... next thing is you're going to start calling yourself an operator.


ETA: fixed before the spelling Nazis arrive.


I used HK in my example because of the 12-round USP in .45 caliber. I personally like SIG's, but if someone kicked in my door, hauled me off right now in my boxers, and issued me clothing, and said "We are dumping you in the jungle. You can have 100 rounds of ammo, and one handgun up to 10mm in caliber. What do you want?" I would pick a Glock. This goes for any other environ as well, I am not saying Glock just because of high-humidity. Glocks just...work. If you were forced to use a pistol without testing it first, I don't know very many informed people who wouldn't pick a Glock, HK, or other polymer pistol or a SIG. Most would pick Glocks based on what I have seen them say in those "only one..." type threads here.

Just how easy is it to conceal that 1911 w/10-round mag, compared to say, a Glock? The Glock has a superior bore-axis, since that is important in your book. Ergo, the Glock would deliver more rounds on target, faster. The trigger pull is different, and not as pleasing to me, but there are no safeties. Yes, a properly trained person will swipe the safety on a 1911 while drawing, but with the Glock, it's just one less thing to forget.

The reason I say "on the square range" is because the only people who are issued the 1911 are the kind of people who might be involved in shooting a static/near static target (of course, this is my uninformed opinion based on the agencies issued it). HRT may well use the pistol against someone holding a hostage. In that case, sure, give me a 1911, because it will damn sure fire the one in the tube, and if that doesn't do the trick, the trick won't be done. That trigger sure is nice in that scenario.

However, FAMS are probably some of the best shots out there in LE, and they do just fine with the SIG.

It's impossible to defend the 1911, logically, from any standpoint other than sentimentality or personal preference for 99% of the applications out there for a pistol. When we get into the technicalities of it, it comes up short every time.

PS. The only things I am technically allowed to call myself an operator of are: Motorvehicles, IV machines, hospital beds, and the pyxis system. However, I do operate handguns in my spare time. 1911's consistantly give me problems. If any other pistol gave me a problem, I would just swap parts applicable to the issue at hand and solve it unless the frame or slide was machined wrong. So much easier/cheaper than a 1911.

Would you honestly say that you would rather have a 1911 than a Glock 37 if I were standing in front of you with both of them loaded up and one in either hand and told you 3 armed intruders would kick your door in in 1 minute. Grab one––only one? Would that wonderful trigger sway you? (assuming you hate the grip angle on the Glock, assume I offered you an HK45 or a M&P or XD instead of the Glock)
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:28:58 PM EST
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:29:38 PM EST
Why don't we ask a few people that have seen a fairly wide sample, rather than some folks' anectdotale evidence.

Ken Hackathorn dubbed them "the finest close quarters combat pistol ever made - and also the king of feedway stoppages."

Clint Smith made the observation that most factory 1911s need work to function reliably.

But what the hell do they know, right?
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:33:07 PM EST
Yes, 12Gauge I can honestly say I would rather have my 1911 over any of the plastic fantastics. In fact those of us that carry 1911s make that choice daily. My choices for carry are not limited either. Available to me every morning when choosing what to wear is. Beretta Elite II in 9mm, Para P18-9, Colt Detective .38 Special snub nose revolver, Springfield XD 357sig, Kel Tec 32acp mouse gun, or a Browning Hi-Power chambered in 40S&W when it gets done. Why the 1911 over all the other pistols ? Why 4 1911s all chambered in 45acp ? One word. Point ability.

Not to mention balance, trigger, or ergonomics. The harshest critic of the 1911 is my son. His last trip back from the sandbox he got hold of this 1911 with a 10 round mag.

You remember that picture ? The look on my boy's face was priceless when he unloaded 11 rounds of bad-ass. Remember the OP your in. Re-read the title if need be. Remember your question ? Dropped in a jungle what would you have ? I've answered it honestly and I see failures in all types of handguns brought to tactical classes due to user err.

btw: here's a link you should read, maybe it will help explain the problem with your last 1911.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:36:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:37:48 PM EST by SGB]
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:37:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:41:11 PM EST by 12_gauge]
I understand what you think (and I think you might well be right) the issue was with my last 1911, but I won't be repeating 1911 ownership again. Also, it fed okay while the ejected brass chipped the finish off the slide and flew all over. When that was corrected, then the feed-issues began.

Everyone has preferences, and mine have moved away from the .45ACP round and the 1911 platform for reasons I outlined above.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:38:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:47:49 PM EST by 12_gauge]
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Why don't we ask a few people that have seen a fairly wide sample, rather than some folks' anectdotale evidence.

Ken Hackathorn dubbed them "the finest close quarters combat pistol ever made - and also the king of feedway stoppages."

Clint Smith made the observation that most factory 1911s need work to function reliably.

But what the hell do they know, right?

Sooooooooooooooooo ............ this supports all 1911's are crap? Hardly my friend. While both men are correct it's because it goes back to comparing cars to Volkswagen. The 1911 is a design, produced by numerous companies and range from Crap to works of Art. Glocks are only made by Glock, HK only made by HK ........... etc, etc, etc. And even them Non 1911 designs have their own share of problems.



HK, Glock, and SIG combined have less problems than Springfield/Colt 1911's do, according to the people on this forum at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt I agree.

The 1911 isn't crap, it's just outdated.

"PS. The only things I am technically allowed to call myself an operator of are: Motorvehicles, IV machines, hospital beds, and the pyxis system. However, I do operate handguns in my spare time. 1911's consistently give me problems. If any other pistol gave me a problem, I would just swap parts applicable to the issue at hand and solve it unless the frame or slide was machined wrong. So much easier/cheaper than a 1911.

Who would have guessed that, you can't master the equipment so it can't be you it must be the equipment. It's OK I see this all the time. "


How do you figure? You mean, I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars in ammo and test and tune and tweak shit? You're right. It should work out of the box, especially at the price-point I bought my 1911's at. That is the 1911 fanatic's crutch "THey just don't know how to maintain/use/run them". No, we just don't want to grind on lugs, re-fit bushings, and all that crap to make things run. We don't think a handgun needs over 1,000 rounds of "break in" ammo (Les Baer's company supplied me with that little tid-bit. You've only shot 600 rounds? Oh. Shoot it another 500 or so and call us.).

However, FAMS are probably some of the best shots out there in LE, and they do just fine with the SIG.

....... You're killing me ............ honest you've got to stop it.


I'm sure your department train(ed) much harder and was staffed by those much more talented than the average Federal Air Marshall.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:46:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Why don't we ask a few people that have seen a fairly wide sample, rather than some folks' anectdotale evidence.

Ken Hackathorn dubbed them "the finest close quarters combat pistol ever made - and also the king of feedway stoppages."

Clint Smith made the observation that most factory 1911s need work to function reliably.

But what the hell do they know, right?

Sooooooooooooooooo ............ this supports all 1911's are crap? Hardly my friend. While both men are correct it's because it goes back to comparing cars to Volkswagen. The 1911 is a design, produced by numerous companies and range from Crap to works of Art. Glocks are only made by Glock, HK only made by HK ........... etc, etc, etc. And even them Non 1911 designs have their own share of problems.



HK, Glock, and SIG combined have less problems than Springfield/Colt 1911's do, according to the people on this forum at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt I agree.

The 1911 isn't crap, it's just outdated.


By whose standards ? Yours ? Not by mine. Speak for yourself. If you had understood the 1911 and done your homework your experience would have been a whole lot different. You do know what tuned ammunition is don't you ? The 1911 won't run all ammo. Some of it is too short. Hello.

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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:47:25 PM EST
You also need to understand ogive too.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:48:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:53:27 PM EST by SGB]
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:49:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Why don't we ask a few people that have seen a fairly wide sample, rather than some folks' anectdotale evidence.

Ken Hackathorn dubbed them "the finest close quarters combat pistol ever made - and also the king of feedway stoppages."

Clint Smith made the observation that most factory 1911s need work to function reliably.

But what the hell do they know, right?

Sooooooooooooooooo ............ this supports all 1911's are crap? Hardly my friend. While both men are correct it's because it goes back to comparing cars to Volkswagen. The 1911 is a design, produced by numerous companies and range from Crap to works of Art. Glocks are only made by Glock, HK only made by HK ........... etc, etc, etc. And even them Non 1911 designs have their own share of problems.



HK, Glock, and SIG combined have less problems than Springfield/Colt 1911's do, according to the people on this forum at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt I agree.

The 1911 isn't crap, it's just outdated.


By whose standards ? Yours ? Not by mine. Speak for yourself. If you had understood the 1911 and done your homework your experience would have been a whole lot different. You do know what tuned ammunition is don't you ? The 1911 won't run all ammo. Some of it is too short. Hello.



Wierd how lots of other 1911's run just fine on Ranger T-Series. Also odd how it fed okay until the ejection issues were corrected. Like I said before, the 1911 is a massive "balancing act". I don't want to run FMJ's. I bought something that runs JHP's. Modern JHP's, not old Hydrashok's or Pow'R'Balls or something else. 1911's are just too darn finicky. Some run some ammo, some run other ammos, some this, some that.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:51:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Why don't we ask a few people that have seen a fairly wide sample, rather than some folks' anectdotale evidence.

Ken Hackathorn dubbed them "the finest close quarters combat pistol ever made - and also the king of feedway stoppages."

Clint Smith made the observation that most factory 1911s need work to function reliably.

But what the hell do they know, right?

Sooooooooooooooooo ............ this supports all 1911's are crap? Hardly my friend. While both men are correct it's because it goes back to comparing cars to Volkswagen. The 1911 is a design, produced by numerous Glocks are only made by Glock, HK only made by HK ........... etc, etc, etc. And even them Non 1911 designs have their own share of problems.


SGB,

My post no more infers that all 1911s are crap than your Marine photo post infers that all 1911s are perfect because the PWS built and maintained pistol run well. It's not what I meant, and I doubt that's what you meant either.

The problem that "1911" has become an umbrella catch-all for inummerable makes and models of the platform is two-fold. I agree it's a problem, but that argument goes both ways - most of the positive writing about the 1911 pistol doesn't specify a particular manufacturer either.

The original poster asked about 1911 reliability in combat courses, so I posted the observations of two guys that have a little bit of experience with combat courses.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:52:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:55:35 PM EST by 12_gauge]
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:

HK, Glock, and SIG combined have less problems than Springfield/Colt 1911's do, according to the people on this forum at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt I agree.

The 1911 isn't crap, it's just outdated.

Look 12_gauge,

The 1911 is like a high maintenance women, they ain't for everyone. But if you're into them there's nothing better short of sex and good bourbon.

If you're going to run a 1911 you've got to learn what makes it tick and be willing to do the work to keep it running at it's peak. There are good 1911's and bad 1911's and most people buy based on price and at the lower end of the scale. These same folks mostly don't want to learn what it takes to make that 1911 work the way it's supposed to and move on to other more modern designs that while sacrificing a small amount of inherent shoot ability provide more dependability with less maintenance.

If this wasn't true their wouldn't be any AK's.

I don't care for Glock's or HK's but I don't run them down as they're functional firearms that suit the needs of many folks. Just like various 1911's do.


Well, people who know darn well what makes a 1911 tick couldn't seem to get mine to tick, so that theory is out, in my book. If people who have been building them for more than 10 years can't make 'em run, I sure as hell am not going to become an idiot savant and fix them. If you have a few decades of experience and you can make sense of the 1911 "balancing act" between feeding, ejection, and tilting a JHP at an obscene angle to the feed-ramp and make it work, then by god run the thing!

I can agree that they are like a high-maintenance woman. I don't mess with those either. Maybe it's a personality trait I need to work on, but I like dependability, consistancy, and hate suprises.

Perhapse I lucked into the one Colt, one LEs Baer, and one Wilson Combat that all went tits up. Maybe I just won that lotto. It's possible I guess. But I have not had a single experience with a 1911 that it didn't break, or come apart while shooting it, or just not run.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:55:04 PM EST
"When basic morality and legal principle give you a green light to shoot the fucker, it's probably a good idea to shoot the fucker." - John_Wayne777
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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:57:15 PM EST
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Posted: 2/24/2010 11:01:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 11:03:39 PM EST by 12_gauge]
Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:

Well, people who know darn well what makes a 1911 tick couldn't seem to get mine to tick, so that theory is out, in my book. If people who have been building them for more than 10 years can't make 'em run, I sure as hell am not going to become an idiot savant and fix them. If you have a few decades of experience and you can make sense of the 1911 "balancing act" between feeding, ejection, and tilting a JHP at an obscene angle to the feed-ramp and make it work, then by god run the thing!

I can agree that they are like a high-maintenance woman. I don't mess with those either. Maybe it's a personality trait I need to work on, but I like dependability, consistancy, and hate suprises.

Perhapse I lucked into the one Colt, one LEs Baer, and one Wilson Combat that all went tits up. Maybe I just won that lotto. It's possible I guess. But I have not had a single experience with a 1911 that it didn't break, or come apart while shooting it, or just not run.

The one common denominator here is .......... ya you guessed it ............ you. Like I've said 1911's aren't for everyone, just like Glocks ain't for me. No harm no foul


Hilton Yam summed it up best. Buy 2, or have an armorer working full-time to keep 1911's in the field. I don't think I can afford either, and I am not an armorer, so you are correct. Not for me. I demand out-of-the box reliability, or simple solutions not involving sand-paper, polishing compound, and bending things. Can I do this? Sure. Do I want to pay for the "privelidge" of it? Pass.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:15:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Too much stuff on a 1911 must be "balanced", extractor tension, ejector profiling, slide-speed, etc. etc. With a Glock, SIG, HK, you just install the parts, and the spring takes care of extractor tension, and for *SOME* reason, they tend to have a great ejection pattern without having to dick with the ejector, etc.

Sure, a mid 80's Porsche can be made to run like a swiss watch, but a modern corvette is plug and play, and will wipe the floor with that porsche any day when it comes to the Nurburg or the 'strip. The only thing the Porsche has is sentimentality. Similar to the 1911, although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity.


"Balanced" yeah right.

nobody had to invent the term "limp wristing" until your little plastic Glock came around.



It takes about 5mins. to tune an extractor.


Pretty much every semi auto on the market has copied John Brownings locked breech tilting barrel design.



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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:24:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Derek45:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Too much stuff on a 1911 must be "balanced", extractor tension, ejector profiling, slide-speed, etc. etc. With a Glock, SIG, HK, you just install the parts, and the spring takes care of extractor tension, and for *SOME* reason, they tend to have a great ejection pattern without having to dick with the ejector, etc.

Sure, a mid 80's Porsche can be made to run like a swiss watch, but a modern corvette is plug and play, and will wipe the floor with that porsche any day when it comes to the Nurburg or the 'strip. The only thing the Porsche has is sentimentality. Similar to the 1911, although the 1911's trigger is a functional advantage, it just doesn't offset: Maintenance, reliability, capacity.


"Balanced" yeah right.

nobody had to invent the term "limp wristing" until your little plastic Glock came around.

It takes about 5mins. to tune an extractor.

Pretty much every semi auto on the market has copied John Brownings locked breech tilting barrel design

Jeff Cooper, Rob Leatham, God, and Santa can't all be wrong.
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You obviously missed the internet memo - beginning last year, "limp wristing" is no longer attributed to inducing Glock failures, and is now blamed for inducing 1911 failures. (I say this in jest but seriously, there were a LOT of posts last year suddenly blaming 1911 failures to limp wristing. It was weird.)

As for Browning's tilt-barrel design, yes, it's used almoste exclusively in modern automatic pistols - but the swinging seems to be missing.
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:37:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 3:44:02 AM EST by John_Wayne777]
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:45:44 AM EST
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