I haven't been around the shooting sports but from what I have read striker fired guns have replaced single actions almost entirely. I've been in gun classes where guys started failing to get the safety when they are pressed for time, so there is that. But I would think that would be a non issue if your grip is such that riding the safety with your thumb is just how you hold the gun.
The reason I'm asking is because I have a Browning Hi-Power sitting here I had kind of forgotten about. I put it away a long time ago and just now dusted it off. I'm just wondering if this type of gun was set aside by the gun community for reasons like first shot speed, or if it was because glocks stand up better to thousands and thousands of rounds fired in competition. I don't know, it could be that in the hands of a skilled shooter the differences between a glock and a hi-power are so slight as to not matter at all, except in competition where every difference has to be considered no matter how small.
Just curious what people more knowledgeable than me have to say about it.

Damned if I know. I hate striker-fired pistols.

Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell the sheep this but.... most striker fired pistols are single action. the only action the trigger preforms is to release the striker. you just no longer see the fully cocked exposed hammer with a striker fired pistol.

Cost and the convenience of a simplified manual of arms.

People don't give a shit about triggers.

Also, they're scared, not comprehending that a 1911 in Condition 1 is far less likely to be negligently discharged than a striker-fired pistol without an external slide-blocking safety.

They did not really fall out of favor. In fact almost all high end competitive target pistols for bullseye competition ( a dying art sadly ) are single actions and the same goes for the vast majority of uspsa open pistol being based off the 1911. The unwashed masses simply prefer a reliable sufficiently accurate pistol that generally costs much less than the older designs. A good solid 1911 for the most part is going to cost you nearly twice what a glock does, the newer designs though not as elegant are generally reliable and accurate enough for general purposes. However in many cases you will here something to the effect of "my glock runs fine but I would like it to be more accurate, like my 1911, or I like my M&p but wish it had a better trigger like my 1911.

I like both. I think the increased number of people carrying these days has met with the lower price and lighter weight of the strikers over the typical 1911. Still like the feel of a 1911, but I find I more often have a striker on my belt.

That's incorrect.  Most striker-fired pistols are a 1.5 action pistol - the striker is not fully cocked, and the trigger fully cocks the striker before firing.  This results in a lighter pull than DAO hammer fired pistols.  We're starting to see even DAO pistols switch to a partial pre-cock, like the latest Ruger .380".

Little to no chance of selling them to LE/gov, they almost always want striker fired or da/sa. So nobody is designing new ones.

Cheap to manufacture and the vast majority of shooters are not good enough to get the max benefit of single action triggers.

So, the same answer as to "Why isn't there more ____" the market.  

The BHP is dated and needs updating.  Plus for a long time IDPA required you to leave the mag safety in the gun, which was one place it really would have flourished otherwise.  In USPSA they usually didn't hold up to the round count for serious competitors.   With the cast frame guns the case is altered but the damage is done.  And many of the BHP parts are still expensive and hard to come by, compared to 1911/2011.

The 2011, 1911 and even the Para guns are still quite popular in USPSA.

Why have SAs fallen out of favor?

Glock has a great marketing department.

^this, excpet for that M&P trigger.....Apex will cure that.

However, I am about to go in the hole for $1400 on a CZ Shadow 2 DA/SA.

Many people, that don't practice, can't operate the safety, slide, and or the trigger and feel comfortable doing it.

Single action is where it's at!

No idea. I personally love and prefer them.

Remember, striker-fired pistols are technically SAO.

Shitty
Action
Only

I would love the opportunity to carry a 1911 at work as I trust them more than plastic.  Unfortunately, like most government agencies, the bean counters see more of a value in the "ok" shooting plastic guns on the market today.  I think they're good for the masses, but not for those of us who have taken the time to learn the manual of arms for single action.

Because a significant number of shooters have grown up with the picture of a Glock as THE handgun of choice in movies and tv shows and (even if only subconciously) believe that they are what the pros use. 

Circular self-feeding process.  

Also, I believe the majority of the shooters as listed above are incapable or unwilling to learn the manual of arms for single actions (safety usage) and revolvers (DA only with a cylinder that turns!).

I realize I'm showing my bias here... full disclosure compels me to say I've never shot a Glock that felt right in my hand or comfortable when firing.  I've shot some that were accurate, but still didn't like them.  A good DA revolver or a good SA 1911, for me, are equally accurate and they just feel right.  I have nothing against other people liking and preferring striker-fired handguns.  Buy, shoot, and carry what you like.  They just aren't for me.

I own one SAO, a 1911.  Had a BHP, no likey.  DA/SA or striker fired for me.  Especially in a carry gun.

I still love me a browning hi-power. The problem? Sights suck, mags suck.  I'm 2seconds or more faster on a 1-5 drill or V-drill with a glock. I've got a few Israeli hi-powers that have some work done to them and they are great guns but will never carry or shoot as good for me as the glock or m&p does.

Pretty much how I view them.  If you can't pull the trigger again to drop the hammer a second time then that trigger is a non cocking trigger-single action

10 years ago at a firearms class the instructor said that striker fired pistols are single action. I don't know why anyone considered that different from then until now.

I have double action revolvers, striker fired guns, single action guns, and I just ordered my first DA/SA.

I like them all and they all have advantages and disadvantages. Striker fired strikes the best balance for carry though.

Not true.

Thanks for the insightful answer. It sounds like it is more about the shooter and what works with him or her, than the gun.

Get both and enjoy both.

Certainly some LE agencies aren't going to like the single action mechanism for silly safety concerns.

But really it's because all the single actions are heavy and have other various problems.  

-1911s are expensive and a lot of them aren't reliable.
-BHPs are hard to find.  Older ones have small, mushy safeties and small sights.
-CZs have a slide that's too hard to rack.

There hasn't been a mass produced single action that has the Glock's low price, low weight, high reliability feature set.

this

I'm going with weight and price. I like the BHP as a carry gun OP.

I sold my Glock and bought a single action only just two weeks ago.

Attached File

Hell if I know, but I prefer striker fired personally

It's kind of true and not true at the same time. 

The trigger doesn't fully cock the hammer and make it drop, but it also doesn't just move the sear off the hammer either. 

First you clear the frame block (trigger safety), then the drop safety (striker block) then depending on brand, some finishing off the striker rearward movement is completed before it fires. 

Generally we see Glock as 80% pre-loaded, M&P is maybe 95%, and Springfield used to call the XD SAO, and it probably is at least 99.9%, if not 100%, but the XDs seems to be pre-loaded like the Glock. 

With the popularity of the Canik DA/SA striker guns (P99 clone), we'll have to rename the striker action. Striker fired was never a good moniker because it's the firing mechanism and not the pistol's action. I think intermediate action has been used as a generic term, and it fits. Safe Action is already taken. 

LOL, no.

AFAIK, single actions were not a typical choice of LEO's.  It went from DA revolvers to Glocks.    But as I understand it, some LEO agencies wouldn't or won't even allow Single action.  From what they think are safety concerns.  I'm pretty sure even the NYPD was against them.  But I don't really know that for sure.


But then you have the Military.  Of course many in the Military loved the 1911 and didn't like the change to the Beretta.  DA/SA is not loved in large numbers......


I don't really have a problem with any action.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses.  It's easy to see why striker fired guns are popular.  As they are most of the time lighter and simpler and cheaper and work.   And as 03RN said, Glock has a really good following from either marketing or brainwashing, coupled with a really good gun.  


The two guns I have noticed I shoot the best with are Single actions.  And DA/SA, once you get past that first shot.  

I think for shooting, my HiPower has been my favorite gun.  I had a Kimber 1911 that was even more accurate in my hands, but I have typically always leaned towards 9mm.  Less recoil for me means less anticipating / flinching.   But my HiPower wasn't as good as I like it now without work.  It has had a trigger job, I removed the mag safety, and the stock grips are a little too fat.   It is a good size and balances nicely.  Has decent capacity and looks good.  It's reliable and it's accurate.  I think if mine were an aluminum framed one, it would be hard to beat with any striker fired gun.  But it's all steel and it does get a little bit heavy.  Not bad though.  Plus the slide is really slim compared to most Striker fired guns.  Which is an upside when carrying it.

If I was you I'd pull that bad boy out and start shooting it.

Probbaly the most accurate answer.

I provided 'training support' for a local PD for years.

I used to shoot new recruits with a primer powered wax slug to teach them they would NOT 'grab' a

cocked revolver pointed at them without getting shot.  

Simunitions did not occur till many years later.

A volunteer dressed out in 'riot gear' and stood about 3 feet away.

I pointed a cocked revolver at them.

They tried to grab it or disarm me.

Pop, thock invariably followed.


I  could even do it double action.


One class took three guys out of a dozen before no one else volunteered.



They wanted a new pistol that 'operated' as close to the old .38 revolvers as possible.

Pull the trigger; gun goes boom.


Enter Glock with lower cost pistols and 'trade in' programs.


The SWAT guys used to laugh when they saw me show up.

We traded lots of laughs since I got to shoot the new recruits.

Not all of them, Glocks for example, are not single action pistols.



The action of the slide returning to battery provides only about 60% of the rearward positioning of the striker necessary to fire the pistol whereas manipulating the trigger provides the balance. The company calls them "Safe Action" triggers. They're considered double action for competition.

The M&P striker, which is virtually 100% cocked by the action of the slide returning to battery,  moves only about 1/64" to the rear when it's released by the sear,  but clever wording by S&W allows the pistol to be classified for competition  as being double action.

The XD striker system is also virtually 100% cocked by the slide returning to battery,  and although the striker also moves a minuscule distance to the rear, due to the manner in which  the action is described by SA, it's considered a single action pistol for purposes of competition.

If it will not fire another round without more than pulling the trigger after a misfire is is SA.

Will a glock drop the striker a second tie on a cartridge without ANY action besides pulling the trigger?

Most don't know how to carry them. And, lefties need a ambi safety.

Single action -- trigger performs one action -- releases hammer/striker.

Double action -- trigger performs two actions -- cocks and releases hammer/striker.

If the striker isn't fully cocked, and pulling the trigger cocks it completely, then releases it, it's double action.

Glocks are double action.

One and a half action at best. The trigger by itself doesn't cock the striker. The slide gets it so far then the trigger does the rest.

Did you decide to keep it?

Wow, that's a good looking gun.

SAO pistols haven't fallen out of favor with me; I still prefer them over striker fired.

10 years ago that instructor was wrong. He's still wrong if he's still saying that today.  What you're demonstrating is a very authoritarian based system of "knowing" whatever it is you "know", rather than using observation, logic and critical thinking.

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The trigger on a Double Action pistol fully cocks the hammer, then releases the sear.

The trigger on a Single Action pistol does nothing other than release the sear.  The hammer is fully cocked by the action of the slide.  In the case of the Series 80 1911, the trigger also disengages the firing pin safety, which makes it something less than a true single action.  

The trigger on a Striker Fired pistol will cock the striker the last 5% to 10% of it's travel, disengage all the safety systems, and then release the striker.  That's not single action.  It's also not double action, as the trigger pull is much shorter and usually lighter.

The exception to this is the Springfield XD series pistols where the striker is fully cocked by the action of the slide - but I still wouldn't call it a single action pistol given the trigger's involvement with all the safety systems.

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The Glock made large in roads into the law enforcement market in the US because it came along at the same time many departments were switching to semi-automatic pistols and it enabled police departments to quickly and easily retrain officers used to firing DA revolvers (i.e the Glock didn't have a manual safety either.  

However many law enforcement agencies quickly discovered that the lighter trigger on the Glock was a problem as the shorter and light trigger pull resulted in more negligent discharges.  That lead to Glocks being ordered with 12 pound triggers.    

It's important to note here that the Glock was also designed as a duty pistol to be carried in an OWB holster, where the holster fully protects the trigger and serves s the first line safety for the pistol.   Since all the other safety systems are de-activated by the trigger, protecting the trigger is paramount.   That ultimately meant that the focus on the training has to be on absolute trigger discipline and learning to safely holster the pistol.  It also meant that holster designs changed, with many duty holsters today carrying the pistol significantly farther out from the officers side to reduce the potential for clothing to intrude into the trigger guard.

In the big picture it doesn't really reduce the training requirement for a semi-auto pistol, it just changes the focus from training officers to engage and disengage a manual safety, to training officers to stay off the trigger and learn to holster a striker fired pistol safely.  

On the military side, many European militaries carried pistols with an empty chamber, racking the slide when drawing the pistol.  Many still employ them that way.  This adds another level of safety over and above an OWB holster.


----


The irony here of course is that many handgun shooters look at all the police departments and militaries using striker fired pistols and then conclude that since that is what the "pros" use, that must be the best possible pistol for their personal self defense and concealed carry needs as well.

It's infinitely worse when some idiot decides that Mexican carry, a minimalist "holster" like the Versa Carry, or a slide clip are good ways to carry a striker fired pistol. This demonstrates their total ignorance of the role of the holster in protecting the trigger on a striker fired pistol.    Even a good IWB holster that protects the trigger, should utilize a clip that enables the holster to be quickly and easily removed from the waistband so that the pistol can be inserted in the holster while handgun and holster are out in front of the shooter where he can observe that nothing is intruding into the trigger guard.  

But again ignorance prevails and "Glock leg" is a not uncommon result.  

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people carrying striker fired pistols - I just object to people who are ignorant about how they do it and/or who do not recognize or admit to the limitations involved.  


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Where many single actions excel is in terms of very nice triggers that are crisp and light and, for the 1911 in particular, have a short trigger re-set that allows for very fast and accurate double taps and controlled pairs.

That's what makes the 1911 so well suited for competitive practical pistol shooting.  I've always suspected that IDPA's tactic sequence rule was partly intended to serve to level the playing field by nullifying the double tap and controlled pair advantage of the single action pistols, in order to artificially overcome that deficiency in striker fired pistols.  In the real world, if I'm on target, the target is going to get double tapped before moving on to another threat, and give that you fight like you train, I stopped screwing around with IPDA and their senseless rules.

Yeah but you're old school AF... as so am I!!! The younger generation prefers DAO striker fired pistols because a lot of times unless they've had a cool uncle, dad, coach, or some other form of a mentor that has taught them how to shoot other kinds of pistols; other than a Glock, they won't likely know anything else than a striker fired pistol. My first pistol was a BHP. My second was a G27. It wasn't until I moved close to my grandfather that I learned a S&W Model 36 snub was a more than adequate. I mastered it quick with his help and learned I don't need 13+ rounds in a pistol to be lethal/well protected. Then he got me into 1911's; sold all my DAO striker pistols save an M&P40c model that I do love. These days I find myself wearing an M36 of my own in a pocket holster over my much beloved CZ P-01 to CVS or Publix. YMMV...

That was why FN came out with the SFS Hi power.

SFS Hi Power in Condition 0:



SFS Hi Power in condition 1:



SFS Hi Power in Condition 3:




Getting the pistol into operation is the same as a regular Hi Power.  Depressing the safety lever takes it off safe and pops the hammer back in contact with the cocked mainspring.   The difference is in putting the weapon on safe, as this is accomplished by pressing the hammer forward from the cocked position to the position in the middle picture where it rests against a hammer block.

Very good post and explanation of SAO and DAO trigger mechanisms DakotaFAL!

LW Commanders are not what I'd call heavy.

A 9mm LW Commander weighs in at 29 oz compared to a Glock 17's 22 oz.  I don't find the extra 7 oz to be significant in terms of carrying the pistol all day long, but I do find the extra 7 oz to be very valuable when it comes to shooting the pistol at speed.



It's true that some 1911s are badly over priced, while some others suffer from low quality and reliability.  Some of the reliability issues ar however related to shooters not understanding how the 1911 feeds and the impact of feed lip, extractor and recoil spring changes or the downsides of shock buffers in reducing slide over run.  In other words, 1911 reliability issues are often the result of shooters "upgrading" the pistol, like it was a Ruger 10/22.

There are however some reliable 1911s that sell for not much more than a Glock.  The Ruger LW Commander for example sells for around $100 more than a comparable Glock 9mm.  

So, for the price of a few boxes of ammo you can have a 1911 with a superb trigger rather than a Glock with a trigger like a Black and Decker staple gun.  


Browning Hi Powers are expensive and can be hard to find.  But on the other hand, the FEG P9 and first ten P9M Hi Power clones abound and you can find one in excellent condition for around $400.   The P9's are a near perfect clone of a pre-Mk II hi Power, although some have larger 3 dot sight and a very positive extended safety.  The first Gen P9M offers larger 3 dot sights, a very positive extended safety, and a 1911 style slide release.  I've found mine to be just as accurate and just as reliable as my Browning/FN Hi powers and the polish on the commercial FEGs is superb.




The trigger on the Hi Power isn't quite to 1911 standards even with the magazine safety removed, and it has a slightly longer re-set which gives the 1911 the edge in a practical pistol match.  But the Hi Power offers 15+1 capacity and it still not too large or heavy for concealed carry in a good IWB holster.



The full size CZ's slide isn't any harder to rack than a comparable Hi Power or 1911.  Where it becomes an issue is on compact CZs where the shorter, lighter slide needs a heavier recoil spring due to the reduced slide weight and travel.

Removing your holster from the belt to holster the gun?  May as well carry it in a purse.

I ride the safety on the 1911s and 2011s I shoot in competition (on the clock: IDPA and USPSA).

I have never, ever, "missed" the safety on the draw.

However, would never CCW a 1911.

Murphy's law.  Miss the safety in a gunfight and you'll likely wind up dead.

Carry a striker fired or DA.  

Save the single actions for use as range toys.