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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Upsizing caliber, yay or nay?

Posted: 5/23/2016 1:03:19 PM EDT

I have a M&P9 full size and wanting something smaller to carry easier, I find it less comfy and harder to conceal.

I have been looking at smaller guns and then reading stories, mainly the NYPD carhartt jacket shooting, that is making me think I should up to a .40 or .45, .45 being the top choice of the two options.

I was looking at a Glock 43 as a main carry, but for a small size difference i could go to the Glock 36 for a bigger round. I have had a 36 and really liked it, traded it towards a nice BHP but had to sell when times got tight a few years ago. A G30 is high on the list too. Otherwise the G26 stands out, but has me thinking about the 9mm and the jacket.

Never been a huge fan of the.40, shot a few and owned a few, but it's never grown on me. I'm not ruling it out, but don't want to jump into it knowing it's never been for me, at least in the guns I've shot.

Am I over thinking it? Those jackets are common here, so I ordered one

but know its a potential to see them in the wild. What do you think?

Posted: 5/23/2016 1:22:17 PM EDT

[#1]

This could get ugly.

But you should look up some ballistic research on the penetrating qualities of .45 acp.....

Posted: 5/23/2016 1:26:07 PM EDT

[#2]

Lucky Gunner has a great article with ballistic tests on it website. Remember the F.B.I. is going back to the 9mm I believe. Look at a Shield, HK P30sk, or CZ Rami.

Posted: 5/23/2016 1:32:33 PM EDT

[#3]

Grab a caliber you can easily shoot someone in the face with, no problems then

Posted: 5/23/2016 1:45:00 PM EDT

[#4]

What happened with the carhart jacket? I'm curious. I'm pretty sure if you are concerned about 9mm not penetrating well enough in the winter, you can just choose a different type of bullet. I carry rounds that are known to penetrate deeper than what's acceptable because people wear a lot of that kind of stuff up here in the winter and I've always been concerned about super thick clothing. People wear a lot more that 4 layers of denim in the winter........

I carry Hornady Critical Duty and it's known to penetrate real deep. I've also loaded my 9mm guns with FMJ in the winter. When I carried my 442 I carried 158 lrn in the winter and Hornady XTP's as reloads. They are also known to penetrate deep.

I'm curious as to what load they were using and what happened. You have a link?

Posted: 5/23/2016 1:53:11 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
What happened with the carhart jacket? I'm curious. I'm pretty sure if you are concerned about 9mm not penetrating well enough in the winter, you can just choose a different type of bullet. I carry rounds that are known to penetrate deeper than what's acceptable because people wear a lot of that kind of stuff up here in the winter and I've always been concerned about super thick clothing. People wear a lot more that 4 layers of denim in the winter........

I carry Hornady Critical Duty and it's known to penetrate real deep. I've also loaded my 9mm guns with FMJ in the winter. When I carried my 442 I carried 158 lrn in the winter and Hornady XTP's as reloads. They are also known to penetrate deep.

I'm curious as to what load they were using and what happened. You have a link?

View Quote

Searching now, will update here with that thread.
EDIT: found from NYPost - NSFW with blood from bad guy
http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/

Also with reading of druggies taking 10+ shots of 380 or 9 before they go down has me thinking about it also.

I carry Speer gold dots In the 147 flavor.

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:11:32 PM EDT

[#6]

Regarding the NYPD Carhartt jacket shooting, I do not think it has been determined exactly what went wrong yet. As for me, I carry 9mm 124gr Gold Dots or HST and do not feel undergunned. Also think about the number of 9mms used world wide by the military and LE community. If there was a problem with the caliber would they still be in such wide spread use?

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:13:50 PM EDT

[#7]

No hand gun that is a practical carry choice is a death ray hand cannon. Speer made changes to Gold Dots a awhile back and there have been issues with performance since then. It seems they are going back to the more tried and true design. It would be interesting to know what lot and type the NYPD officer was using. But if you search you can find a police shooting where a cop ran through 3 mags of .45 from a Glock 21 with 13 hits on a bad guy who kept shooting at him until a head shot finished it. Bullets do funky things, and people behave in funky ways. Picking a different load in 9mm may be just as good. A Federal HST 124gr +P has a good track record. or move to a 147gr load. The Cop did stop the bad guy with the 9mm Gold Dots, it just wasn't quick and clean (shocking).

Real lessons: penetration is important, hit vital areas, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:16:20 PM EDT

[#8]

If you liked the G30, then more likely than not, you will enjoy the G30S.

I generally carry a G19/17, but when I head to the mountains and high desert (if I am not carrying a 44 mag), I grab my G30s.

It's light weight, thinner slide, and decent capacity (with a G21 mag reload) make it a pretty good all around gun for defense against predators large and small.

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:22:24 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
Grab a caliber you can easily shoot someone in the face with, no problems then

View Quote

Yes.

Posted: 5/23/2016 2:49:34 PM EDT

[#10]

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

EVERYTHING You Heard About A Jacket Stopping NYPD Bullets Is Absurdly False

Posted at 12:34 pm on May 23, 2016 by Bob Owens

..................................... Sounds reasonable to me.

Posted: 5/23/2016 3:48:24 PM EDT

[#11]

You are getting your ballistic info from a NY news outlet.

Probably a lot of info omitted that is very relevant. Not the mention if the 9mm would not get the job done I image any pistol caliber that day would have failed to do what it should have done.

Pistols are pea shooters they are not man stopped and do not have knock down power. Pistols poke holes in that is all.

9 vs 40 vs 357 vs 10 vs 45 they are all equal in performance from a ballistic stand point essentially the difference comes down to what does the shooter feel comfortable with. I bet the part of the story about this is that the NYPD is notoriously bad shots and were not landing hits on target. When I read stories like this I wonder how many people were at risk because the officers probably missed their target. A large percentage of officer involved shooting involve misses and bystanders the ones getting shot.

Posted: 5/23/2016 3:54:30 PM EDT

[#12]

Put that story up with all the ones with vets reporting that the skinnies and ragheads wouldn't go down with multiple rounds of 556 or 9mm hitting center mass

Posted: 5/23/2016 5:27:42 PM EDT

[#13]

No. M&P 9c or Shield 9mm.

Posted: 5/23/2016 6:21:35 PM EDT

[#14]

9mm is great.

My ignoramus friend is always saying how .40 is the best handgun caliber period, that the 9 is "pussy shit", and how the .45 is "just too big and fat". He refuses to look at data and facts, and it irritates me to no end.

Just get a 9. As a bonus, it's cheaper to shoot by a fair margin. And if you really want to you could buy some of those expensive supercharged load made by Buffalo Bore or DoubleTap, though they get mixed reviews. It really all boils down to shot placement. Like I tell my friend, most handgun rounds in general suck and are a compromise, if you want power in your hand the get a .44 mag.

I just customized by Beretta 92A1 with a number of components from Wilson Combat and it's even better than it was before. I highly recommend it. I'll take 18+1 rounds of 9mm over almost anything else.

My two cents.

Posted: 5/23/2016 6:54:14 PM EDT

[#15]

Back in the early 90's, before the AWB limited mag. capacity to 10 rounds. Magazine would run an article about which is better? Capacity or caliber? This essentially came down to 9mm vs. 45acp. 40 S&W wasn't out yet or it was in early adoption. Funny how we have tons of more data and real world shootings to analyze and we still debate it. I am not sure I believe a Carhartt jacket stopped any bullets. Great ad for Carhartt. However, I wouldn't take one situation and change my mind based on some potentially atypical results. There are always anomalies.

Posted: 5/23/2016 7:04:49 PM EDT

[#16]

You're over thinking it, seriously 9mm is fine. So is 40, 45, 38, 357, 44, 380 and many others. I have yet to find a single volunteer to let me shoot them with any of those calibers so clearly they're not too puny

. Doesn't stop the penis flexing....err....I mean caliber wars though.

Posted: 5/23/2016 7:06:31 PM EDT

[#17]

Get what you want .9MM is plenty adequate. Some folks seem to gravitate to 147 grain ,but 124+P has been proven over and over. 124 standard is a good choice as well.

If you like bigger, go for it, my daily carry is .40, but have a 9 sitting around and am completely confident in it getting the job done if asked.

Posted: 5/23/2016 7:16:19 PM EDT

[#18]

Even if that story was true, which it isn't... but lets just play along and pretend it is...

It would be nothing more than a story about a batch of malfunctioning/bad ammo; not a story about how the 9mm sucks for self defense, so lets all sit around and play "which caliber is best" for the 10,000th time because we're bored and a single news story got us all worked up AGAIN.

Ive probably heard stories involving just about every caliber out there that didnt work/do its job that one time. I didnt run home and reevaluate my outlook on life each time.

But again... that story isnt even true anyway.

Posted: 5/23/2016 7:30:58 PM EDT

[#19]

If you need more than a few rounds of any caliber to drop someone, you should spend more time learning to shoot.................

Posted: 5/23/2016 7:42:46 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

EVERYTHING You Heard About A Jacket Stopping NYPD Bullets Is Absurdly False

Posted at 12:34 pm on May 23, 2016 by Bob Owens

..................................... Sounds reasonable to me.

View Quote

Everything he said makes total sense. And I find it very strange that the bullets wouldn't penetrate at all. Plus what he said about them going through and stopping is very plausible. However, he was not there and is only reporting how they have performed in tests. Not what exactly happened. I don't care what anyone says, those carhart jackets ARE thick. Thicker than any denim I've ever seen. Plus you have the insulation. And whatever else a guy is wearing. There's no way the bullets would be bouncing off, but I always wonder how much that kind of clothing would affect performance and I've never seen a test using one of them jackets or overalls. They are common up here in winter with labor people.

Posted: 5/23/2016 8:44:32 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

Everything he said makes total sense. And I find it very strange that the bullets wouldn't penetrate at all. Plus what he said about them going through and stopping is very plausible. However, he was not there and is only reporting how they have performed in tests. Not what exactly happened. I don't care what anyone says, those carhart jackets ARE thick. Thicker than any denim I've ever seen. Plus you have the insulation. And whatever else a guy is wearing. There's no way the bullets would be bouncing off, but I always wonder how much that kind of clothing would affect performance and I've never seen a test using one of them jackets or overalls. They are common up here in winter with labor people.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

EVERYTHING You Heard About A Jacket Stopping NYPD Bullets Is Absurdly False

Posted at 12:34 pm on May 23, 2016 by Bob Owens

..................................... Sounds reasonable to me.

Everything he said makes total sense. And I find it very strange that the bullets wouldn't penetrate at all. Plus what he said about them going through and stopping is very plausible. However, he was not there and is only reporting how they have performed in tests. Not what exactly happened. I don't care what anyone says, those carhart jackets ARE thick. Thicker than any denim I've ever seen. Plus you have the insulation. And whatever else a guy is wearing. There's no way the bullets would be bouncing off, but I always wonder how much that kind of clothing would affect performance and I've never seen a test using one of them jackets or overalls. They are common up here in winter with labor people.

I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.

JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.

I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.

I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

Posted: 5/23/2016 9:17:11 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.

JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.

I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.

I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

EVERYTHING You Heard About A Jacket Stopping NYPD Bullets Is Absurdly False

Posted at 12:34 pm on May 23, 2016 by Bob Owens
..................................... Sounds reasonable to me.

Everything he said makes total sense. And I find it very strange that the bullets wouldn't penetrate at all. Plus what he said about them going through and stopping is very plausible. However, he was not there and is only reporting how they have performed in tests. Not what exactly happened. I don't care what anyone says, those carhart jackets ARE thick. Thicker than any denim I've ever seen. Plus you have the insulation. And whatever else a guy is wearing. There's no way the bullets would be bouncing off, but I always wonder how much that kind of clothing would affect performance and I've never seen a test using one of them jackets or overalls. They are common up here in winter with labor people.

I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.

JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.

I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.

I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

Odds are very good that the rounds either missed, grazed the jacket, or did exactly as they were supposed to and got caught in the jacket after exiting the subject.

Bullets can do crazy things, and nobody can say with any certainty that any other service handgun cartridge would have fared better in this situation. Odd angles and intermediate barriers tend to screw things up for bullets of any type.

Journalists are a special kind of 'tarded, especially when it comes to processing gun/shooting information they received from people who themselves don't fully understand what happened. So you'll forgive me if I don't throw my stash of RA9T up on the EE tonight because the NY Post says Carhartt is 9mm proof.

Posted: 5/23/2016 10:22:02 PM EDT

[#23]

Clearly someone need to buy up some Carhartt jackets and slap them on some ballistic gel and shoot them with a bunch of different cartridges while video taping it and posting it to YouTube.

Given the reliability of the current evidence I am not changing what I am carrying.

Posted: 5/23/2016 11:08:35 PM EDT

[#24]

Have handguns in 38, 357, 9, 40, 45.

That story and the FBI's decision means nothing to me.

Buy what you like and can shoot/handle proficiently.

Posted: 5/24/2016 3:15:30 AM EDT

[#25]

That jacket story is almost certainly BS.

If there's a light powder charge that launches the bullet so slowly that it can't penetrate a jacket, the gun won't cycle.

Posted: 5/24/2016 4:40:18 AM EDT

[#26]

to I see a lot of new ballistic gel videos commig with a lot of Carhart Jackets getting holes...
I guess there will now be a ... Carhart Standard Test

Posted: 5/24/2016 5:20:53 AM EDT

[#27]

I like the GLOCK 36 for a concealed carry option.

It isn't tiny, and the capacity is not large, but I think it fills a niche very nicely............

Posted: 5/24/2016 7:39:53 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

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No. M&P 9c or Shield 9mm.

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This is what I came to say. I would lean towards the 9c, or do what I did and get both.

Posted: 5/24/2016 8:33:53 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.
JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.
I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.
I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

EVERYTHING You Heard About A Jacket Stopping NYPD Bullets Is Absurdly False

Posted at 12:34 pm on May 23, 2016 by Bob Owens
..................................... Sounds reasonable to me.

Everything he said makes total sense. And I find it very strange that the bullets wouldn't penetrate at all. Plus what he said about them going through and stopping is very plausible. However, he was not there and is only reporting how they have performed in tests. Not what exactly happened. I don't care what anyone says, those carhart jackets ARE thick. Thicker than any denim I've ever seen. Plus you have the insulation. And whatever else a guy is wearing. There's no way the bullets would be bouncing off, but I always wonder how much that kind of clothing would affect performance and I've never seen a test using one of them jackets or overalls. They are common up here in winter with labor people.

I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.
JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.
I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.
I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

As an LEO in Michigan I carried a S&W 469 in the left front pocket of my uniform pants as my primary backup. In the Spring and summer it was loaded with Winchester Silvertips, in late fall and winter I switched to 124gr fmj.

I live in Florida now so 147gr HST's are my go to year round load in my 9mm guns. However if I were still in Michigan I'd be confident that the 147gr premium grade 9mm's would have no issue with heavy winter clothing.

Posted: 5/24/2016 8:37:56 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you need more than a few rounds of any caliber to drop someone, you should spend more time learning to shoot.................

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If you're this ignorant you need to spend more time learning about the human will to live and less time posting.

Hypovolemic incapacitation isn't instant by any means and a guy with a knife could stab you in the face long after he's been mortally wounded. Unless you put one in the spine or brain there's no guarantees your attacker will stop any time soon. Wagering your safety on a low capacity firearm while hoping your attacker is by himself is also quite foolish.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 5/24/2016 8:49:32 AM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

If you're this ignorant you need to spend more time learning about the human will to live and less time posting.

Hypovolemic incapacitation isn't instant by any means and a guy with a knife could stab you in the face long after he's been mortally wounded. Unless you put one in the spine or brain there's no guarantees your attacker will stop any time soon. Wagering your safety on a low capacity firearm while hoping your attacker is by himself is also quite foolish.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If you need more than a few rounds of any caliber to drop someone, you should spend more time learning to shoot.................

If you're this ignorant you need to spend more time learning about the human will to live and less time posting.

Hypovolemic incapacitation isn't instant by any means and a guy with a knife could stab you in the face long after he's been mortally wounded. Unless you put one in the spine or brain there's no guarantees your attacker will stop any time soon. Wagering your safety on a low capacity firearm while hoping your attacker is by himself is also quite foolish.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Word.

Posted: 5/24/2016 10:25:59 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:

I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.

JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.

I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.

I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

View Quote

You are W-A-Y overthinking this. Even if the article has any truth (The whole story isn't being told IMHO) you don't depend on bullet designers to save your life. You shoot until the threat is stopped. Don't hang a lot of faith on the legendary performance of XX round or caliber. The grey area is wide to enormous between reality and lore on every last one.

Get good quality, practice, practice and then practice some more with it.

Posted: 5/24/2016 11:06:52 AM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.

JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.

I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.

I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quoted:

Quoted:
http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

EVERYTHING You Heard About A Jacket Stopping NYPD Bullets Is Absurdly False

Posted at 12:34 pm on May 23, 2016 by Bob Owens

..................................... Sounds reasonable to me.

Everything he said makes total sense. And I find it very strange that the bullets wouldn't penetrate at all. Plus what he said about them going through and stopping is very plausible. However, he was not there and is only reporting how they have performed in tests. Not what exactly happened. I don't care what anyone says, those carhart jackets ARE thick. Thicker than any denim I've ever seen. Plus you have the insulation. And whatever else a guy is wearing. There's no way the bullets would be bouncing off, but I always wonder how much that kind of clothing would affect performance and I've never seen a test using one of them jackets or overalls. They are common up here in winter with labor people.

I read your response a bit ago,SGB, and really was thinking about it. I hadn't read that, all I e seen are the news articles about the jacket and all. It didn't add up much, but can only go on what's there in the articles.

JJ, those jackets are very common here and that does have me a bit concerned. Even with good ammo, if they can even deflect the round away from vital areas that can increase the length of a fight and the number of rounds needed to stop the threat. They are thick! With as thick and tightly packed as they are, makes me wonder if it would have any effect on expansion of the round? Someone who is either smarter than me or better at Google than me may be able to answer that.

I've carried .38, .45, and mainly 9mm my entire gun life, and at first I was a bit hesitant to carry a 9 but found good rounds. The cops there had very similar rounds (I use 147 gr gold dots, they use the 124 +P variant) and had issue.

I train to where I have full faith in my ability to hit my target. Was never a question of am I going to hit them, purely a matter of knowing that my round would stop a BG, in his winter attire.

Bob Owens wasn't there, neither was I, but he reached what I feel is one of two plausible conclusions, the other being something else was struck first, and one certainty, something is not being accurately reported. Pretty sure rounds so weak 10/12oz canvas and a thin felt like "blanket" lining stopped them, at what I assume was fairly close range, would be unlikely to cycle the firearm.

I own a lot of Carhartt garments, the canvas is fairly heavy, but more stiff than thick, it is not 4 layers of even cheap jean's denim thick. The blanket lining is pretty thin but very dense like good felt, the quilted lining is fairly thick, but not dense.

Posted: 5/24/2016 12:40:29 PM EDT

[#34]

I stand by what I said. Use ball ammo and learn about shot placement. You can wear 2 Carhart jackets if you want, you'll be warm but won't be any less dead..............

Posted: 5/24/2016 7:22:43 PM EDT

[#35]

The moral of the NYPD story is that you want more firepower, not less. Upsizing calibers means downsizing firepower. Assuming for the sake of argument that the jacket did stop four rounds, the officer still had 14 more at his disposal to get the job done. 9mm FTW!

Posted: 5/25/2016 9:41:37 AM EDT

[#36]

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This could get ugly.

But you should look up some ballistic research on the penetrating qualities of .45 acp.....

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This!

but honestly, choose a reliable gun you will actually carry in a caliber that YOU think is the best combination of + and -. After that, pick a current loading designed for defensive carry and concentrate on becoming proficient with your choices.

Personal competence and mechanical reliability will trump caliber selection every time.

Posted: 5/25/2016 10:25:41 AM EDT

[#37]

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Searching now, will update here with that thread.

EDIT: found from NYPost - NSFW with blood from bad guy

http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/

Also with reading of druggies taking 10+ shots of 380 or 9 before they go down has me thinking about it also.

I carry Speer gold dots In the 147 flavor.

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Quoted:

What happened with the carhart jacket? I'm curious. I'm pretty sure if you are concerned about 9mm not penetrating well enough in the winter, you can just choose a different type of bullet. I carry rounds that are known to penetrate deeper than what's acceptable because people wear a lot of that kind of stuff up here in the winter and I've always been concerned about super thick clothing. People wear a lot more that 4 layers of denim in the winter........

I carry Hornady Critical Duty and it's known to penetrate real deep. I've also loaded my 9mm guns with FMJ in the winter. When I carried my 442 I carried 158 lrn in the winter and Hornady XTP's as reloads. They are also known to penetrate deep.

I'm curious as to what load they were using and what happened. You have a link?

Searching now, will update here with that thread.

EDIT: found from NYPost - NSFW with blood from bad guy

http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/

Also with reading of druggies taking 10+ shots of 380 or 9 before they go down has me thinking about it also.

I carry Speer gold dots In the 147 flavor.

that story is bullshit

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

ETA: didn't read far enough, already posted

Posted: 5/25/2016 11:19:27 PM EDT

[#38]

Even if the jacket does stop the bullet, it's gonna feel like someone hit you with a baseball bat.

Posted: 5/26/2016 9:45:43 AM EDT

[#39]

I find .45acp to have less muzzle jump than .40S&W, it may be a heavy projectile but is not what I consider a hot caliber. If you're comfortable shooting 9mm, .45acp should be an easy step up.

Personally I think in terms of ballistic performance vs felt recoil the .357 Sig is a great option, just not a whole out there in terms of ammo choices unless you press your own. Most people I know who shoot .357 Sig started with another caliber and bought a conversion kit.

Posted: 5/28/2016 9:42:15 PM EDT

[#40]

You guys read WAY TOO MUCH online BS! Stay with the 9mm for auto carry! If you want smaller, get a G4 G19!

Posted: 6/1/2016 12:57:22 PM EDT

[#41]

The .40 and .45 are a step up from the 9mm BUT the story of a 9mm not penetrating a coat...please. I'm not at all anti 9mm as I have several and I think the 9mm is probably the most logical choice for most people. A BB gun could shoot through a Carhartt jacketet so that story is a bogus as it gets or is being misconstrued to make the 9mm look bad.

A similar incident happened with the .40, a guy was shot with .40's and .223 and an x-ray shows a fully expanded .40 cal Gold Dot that looks like it only went in 1". Bullets do weird things I get it, but in this case the bullet had nearly completely penetrated the torso at an angle, fully expanded and stopped 1" from exiting.

Personally yeah I like some cartridges better than others, who doesn't, but a .38, 9mm, .357 SIG/Mag, .40/10mm, or .45 will get the job done if the bullet hits where it's supposed to. It's like many people saying handguns suck for defense, which makes sense when considering many can't even shoot one worth a damn and never take the time to become proficient with one because their mindset is that handguns suck anyways and it just doesn't matter to them because of that. How's about become proficient with your sidearm (it takes a lot of practice to get pretty good with a handgun but it's worth it) so that you can put bullets where they need to go.

Posted: 6/1/2016 9:28:22 PM EDT

[#42]

We are failing to address the OP's concerns. The real issue is that ANY handgun right up to and including .50AE isn't going to be a reliable stop.

By all means, move up. I recommend 5.56 from a 10.5" barrel out of an AR pistol. Some would suggest .308 from a 13" barrel.

HOWEVER, there are going to be issues. One is that the larger the round the larger the weapon needed to fire it. If a full size rifle cartridge handgun can do one thing, it's put much more power out the barrel than any pistol caliber normally used. What it won't do is conceal or even carry very well.

It's all a matter of scale.

Don't worry about what an attacker might wear - he's not going to pull a Carhartt over his face, is he? YOUR response is more important, and that is 1) have a gun in the first place, and 2) know how to use it.

A lot of people downsize the gun because they can carry and conceal it more easily. That means they have it more often - which means they have it when they need it. Carry a full size .45ACP 1911 on Myrtle Beach in your trunks and t-shirt? Maybe the better gun would be a Kahr CW380 which would resist the salt water and conceal easier.

There is no all purpose one size fits all gun. It's why so many have a pocket gun, a belt gun, a range gun. Pick one that has the same features of the larger guns and there is less relearn curve or mistaken operation. t doesn't mean you can't shoot other guns - you never know what might come to hand at a bad moment - but it does reduce issues when you need YOUR gun.

And you definitely will be glad it's there regardless of it's size.