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Posted: 5/29/2015 9:37:05 PM EDT
These sorts of questions are frequent here, so I thought I’d put together a post I can link to as a primer. (I've posted this before, but the original is archived.)  

Size matters, and it’s probably the one thing guys most frequently get wrong when helping a lady choose a new gun to keep around the house. In such situations, there almost always seems to be a mutual understanding between the guy and the woman in question that they’re looking for some dainty little handgun for her to keep in the house.

The biggest problem with this is that physics applies to handguns just as much as everything else. Consider two handguns of the same caliber, like a Ruger LC9 and a CZ SP01. The LC9 is a slim, lightweight, polymer framed gun weighing in at a nice 17.1oz. The SP01 is a very large steel gun weighing 38.4oz. Newton’s third law tells us that when a 9mm projectile is being pushed out of these guns, there is an equal force pushing back against the firearm. That’s the source of recoil. Newton’s first law tells us that an object at rest tends to stay at rest, and an object with more mass is going to be more resistant to a change in motion. Because the SP01 is significantly heavier than the LC9, it has significantly less felt recoil and is much more pleasant to shoot.

There are other drawbacks to smaller handguns, too. A smaller handgun is going to have reduced ammo capacity. If we stick to 9mm for comparison purposes, smaller subcompacts usually hold around seven rounds, and full size guns usually hold 15-20 rounds. I’d like to think seven rounds is enough, but you never know. Smaller handguns are also going to have a shorter sight radius, or distance between the front and rear sight. Generally speaking, a longer sight radius is going to make it easier to shoot more accurately. Another tradeoff is muzzle velocity. There are other variables, and it’s a bit more complicated than this, but an extra inch of barrel can be good for 50-100 feet per second.

Long story short, so far, is that you should try to stick to a full size service pistol like a Glock 17, M&P 9, Beretta 92, or CZ 75. A midsize gun like a Glock 19 or M&P 9c is okay. The small concealed carry guns should be left for concealed carry. If they don’t mind spending a little extra, consider a competition oriented long slide gun like a Glock 34 or a M&P 9 Pro Series. They really are the “even better” versions of the guns they’re based on.

What about revolvers? The popular thought is that revolvers are simple, easy to operate, and completely reliable. That’s not exactly accurate. The side plate of a revolver hides some lockwork that tends to be more complicated than it looks. Precision is everything, and damaged internals or a bent crane can ruin your timing, or worse. Something like a protruding primer or a bit of sediment pushing on a case can lock up a revolver. A semiauto stoppage can usually be cleared rapidly, but a bound up revolver tends to take some time and effort to deal with. If it locks up during a fight, it’s done.

Revolver ease of use is an interesting discussion. On a very basic level, revolvers are easier to operate. It is very easy to load, unload, or check a revolver… if speed isn’t an issue. In a defensive situation, revolvers are more demanding to operate than a semiauto. The double action trigger is more difficult to master, and reloading is probably out of the question without significant training and practice.

The best thing to do when helping someone choose a handgun is to take him or her shooting. If they’re completely new to shooting, use a .22lr target pistol to teach fundamentals, then try a few other guns out and see what they gravitate to. “Perfect” probably won’t be found the first time out, and that’s okay. It will take some trigger time for him or her to get a feel for what fits and develop preferences. In the meantime, it’s okay to settle on a quality firearm as “good enough.”

Being a technical forum, there is much debate about the advantages and disadvantages of some features, and no debate draws more purse swinging than safeties. I find this hilarious and ironic because no one complains about the safety on the rifle our site is named for, but the existence of a safety on a handgun draws plenty of criticism. Either way, with or without a safety, there’s a training consideration. Opponents of safeties will say that the safety is a crutch to protect against poor awareness of the trigger, and there’s truth to that. They also say that the safety can prevent a person from being able to fire in the heat of the moment, and again, there’s truth to that. The training requirements are simple. Regardless of whether or not a firearm has a safety, the individual needs to ensure that nothing snags the trigger. If a firearm with a safety is chosen, a muscle memory link between presenting a firearm and flipping off the safety needs to be established. It’s not rocket surgery. The presence of a safety probably shouldn’t be part of your GO-NO GO criteria.

What about caliber? Keep it simple, and keep it standard. Avoid limited market calibers like 5.7, .357sig, and .25acp. If you do decide to go the revolver route, a .38 special or a .357 magnum loaded with .38 special is probably the only way to go. On the semiauto side, I’d suggest 9mm, .40s&w, .45acp, and maybe .380. 9mm is an all-around good choice. If the recoil of a particular 9mm is too much, try something heavier. .45acp is also popular in heavy frames because the recoil has a slow, strong impulse. I don’t recommend a small .45 like the XD-S for novice shooters, but some of the ladies I’ve taken out have enjoyed the 1911. .40s&w is hotly debated. The recoil on .40s&w firearms does tend to be a bit sharper, but it’s not unreasonable, and larger guns manage it well. .380 is a bit borderline. It’s more expensive than 9mm, yet it’s less powerful. The only advantage is that it can be used in very small guns like the LCP, but those are snappy. .380 can be nice in the larger examples like the Beretta 84, Sig P232, and CZ 83.

Questions of brand tend to draw fierce fanboyism. I’d suggest sticking with major players like Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Glock, Springfield Armory, Sig Sauer, Beretta, CZ, and HK. All of these companies generally produce very good guns. At the risk of sounding like a snob, I don’t recommend super low budget brands like Bryco, Jennings, and Jimenez, and I don’t recommend Taurus. Taurus has produced some decent guns (older PT92s were good), but I’ve seen way too many failures to recommend them for self-defense. The $50 you might save is not enough for the difference in quality. All manufacturers have produced lemons. Any defensive firearm needs to be tested before use, and that means more than one box of ammo.

Go shooting, and have fun with it.

If anyone has anything to add, go for it.
Link Posted: 5/29/2015 10:56:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Nice writeup.  I would add that one selects the "chassis" first for performance, fit and comfort, and can then accessorize it later with color, grips, etc.. I only say that because many new shooters do not realize they can alter a firearm's appearance and some of its function after purchase.
Link Posted: 6/2/2015 2:27:59 PM EDT
[#2]
In the caliber selection, pay attention to whether the handgun is a recoil- or blowback-operated design. The blowback design will have a snappier recoil than the recoil design leading a smaller caliber to maybe have a greater felt recoil than a larger one.

My gf is realizing this with her CZ-83.
Link Posted: 6/2/2015 2:33:03 PM EDT
[#3]
I agree. It always seems insulting here that the "men" of arfcom are trying to pick a gun for their wife. My wife and I went to a range that lets you try multiple guns for one fee. She tried out about 10 guns and settled on a sig 226 for the one that was.most comfortable for her and the most accurate. A gun that sometimes feels big in my own hands was perfect for my tiny wife. And what I want to know if she ever has to use a gun for defense is that she is comfortable  with it, not that I thought she would be comfortable with it.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:03:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In the caliber selection, pay attention to whether the handgun is a recoil- or blowback-operated design. The blowback design will have a snappier recoil than the recoil design leading a smaller caliber to maybe have a greater felt recoil than a larger one.

My gf is realizing this with her CZ-83.
View Quote


Agreed.

For anyone recoil sensitive, I wouldn't look at anything direct blowback, unless it's a .22lr.
Link Posted: 7/31/2015 11:53:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I agree. It always seems insulting here that the "men" of arfcom are trying to pick a gun for their wife. My wife and I went to a range that lets you try multiple guns for one fee. She tried out about 10 guns and settled on a sig 226 for the one that was.most comfortable for her and the most accurate. A gun that sometimes feels big in my own hands was perfect for my tiny wife. And what I want to know if she ever has to use a gun for defense is that she is comfortable  with it, not that I thought she would be comfortable with it.
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Actually, I could see how a P226 would be comfortable to a woman. My biggest complaint about it, the placement of the slide stop, would be less of a problem if I had smaller hands.
Link Posted: 8/1/2015 1:40:41 AM EDT
[#6]
I have rotated a number of handguns thru the house for the wife to like.  The last one I brought in is a G4 G19 with no backstrap.  She stated "you finally found the perfect gun"!  So I have been carrying that one for years.  

Yesterday I took the family to the range and she shot the G4 G22 with 9mm conversion barrel, weapon light, mag well and medium beaver tail backstrap and a Hogue grip sleeve and said "I really like that one".

No telling from day to day...
Link Posted: 8/1/2015 9:01:24 AM EDT
[#7]
I let my wife and daughter shoot everything I ever pick up and let them decide. They both have 9mm's; my wife likes the M&P9C best to date, however she has never fired a full size M&P. My daughter seems to shoot most average sized 9mm's about the same. They shoot medium sized 9mm's far better than anything else they have tried.





An opinion on revolvers: J frame type wheelguns are not easy to shoot in SD type drills w/o a lot of practice. Any wheelgun shot DA seems to be not so easy for someone who is not experienced with them. For some old farts like me they seem to have a place; I find the long stroke of the trigger seems to naturally help me pace myself when shooting quickly and I have a tendency to "overshoot" the auto's, especially 9mm's unless I'm really paying attention hard. Now I have fired 10's and 10's of thousands of rounds (have no idea what the actual round count would be) through revolvers over the 40 years of shooting handguns and a fraction of that amount with autos so there is that. If you would run across me out and about you would fine a S&W 2.5" 19 on my hip. I would submit that a revolver is actually an "experts" (so to speak) weapon!

 
Link Posted: 8/1/2015 12:04:11 PM EDT
[#8]
From all the rifles and handguns I own, there was one firearm that my 14 year old daughter really gravitated to even before we got to the range and that was the S&W Model 686 Plus 4" barrel.  Wow!  I couldn't believe she would want to check out how the recoil junkies does it.  But before I had her shoot the revolver, I had her shoot my tamer Ruger Mark III Hunter pistol.and Ruger 10/22 rifle.  She had so much fun with that pistol and rifle shooting about 400 rounds better both guns.  I then I got the S&W Model 686 Plus 4" barrel revolver and loaded it up with +P 38spl rounds just to have her get the partial effect of a medium frame revolver.  When she shot it , she was all giddy with excitement and wonder.  She was amazed how much power the revolver could handle.  I didn't tell her the magnum rounds had even more power and  recoil.  I'll let here find out on subsequent range visit
Link Posted: 8/1/2015 12:52:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Another plus to the revolver column: it's tolerant of limpwristing. That can be a very big deal for a woman. It was for me.

Also, there's the likelihood of needing to shoot someone who may already be on top of you, pushing an automatic OOB. Or not managing to clear your clothing before getting a shot off.



Link Posted: 8/2/2015 2:37:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Very nice write up to the extent it applies to a "house" gun.

Note however that the ideas only limitedly apply to a CCW gun.  In that case, the options start with what someone is willing to carry.  The most I have found any sensible woman willing to purse carry is a Glock 19, simply for a size reference.  For on the body carry think instead a S&W Shield 9mm or Ruger LCR38.  The Shield is the easiest to shoot of the single stack 9s and the LCR trigger is better than any factory J frame ever made.  (This from a Glock shooter and user of a set of S&W M&P340/43/351c's.)

As a practical matter, for a "house" gun, a three pound tricked out full size service pistol is a good bit inferior to a lightweight AR15.  The AR is easier to hit with at any range, penetrates less than pistol rounds, and no one is holding the flashhider to push it out of battery after the first shot rips their fingers.  Aiming is no effort at short range when shouldering it and looking down the top will not miss at room length.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 2:38:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Very nice write up to the extent it applies to a "house" gun.

Note however that the ideas only limitedly apply to a CCW gun.  In that case, the options start with what someone is willing to carry.  The most I have found any sensible woman willing to purse carry is a Glock 19, simply for a size reference.  For on the body carry think instead a S&W Shield 9mm or Ruger LCR38.

As a practical matter, for a "house" gun, a three pound tricked out full size service pistol is a good bit inferior to a lightweight AR15.  The AR is easier to hit with at any range, penetrates less than pistol rounds, and no one is holding the flashhider to push it out of battery after the first shot rips their fingers.  Aiming is no effort at short range when shouldering it and looking fown the top will not miss at room length.
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I still find ARs intimidatingly complex compared to my G19.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 4:24:23 PM EDT
[#12]
I find many women have difficulty racking the slide on the very short semi-autos.  Hand them a full size 9x19mm 1911 and they're amazed @ how easy it is to rack.

I will risk the wrath of Ms Snow, and point out that purse carry significantly expands the possible footprint of a woman's carry gun, should they choose to carry in that manner.

The little SIG 238 is locked breech, so easy to rack for a tiny .380", but I don't know how the recoil is.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 4:37:42 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
I find many women have difficulty racking the slide on the very short semi-autos.  Hand them a full size 9x19mm 1911 and they're amazed @ how easy it is to rack.

I will risk the wrath of Ms Snow, and point out that purse carry significantly expands the possible footprint of a woman's carry gun, should they choose to carry in that manner.

The little SIG 238 is locked breech, so easy to rack for a tiny .380", but I don't know how the recoil is.
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Lol. I just think it's too risky to have the gun so far out of your immediate control. What do bad guys snatch? What do children rifle through when bored? What do women leave places? What flies around in the car when you're in a collision?

Just consider it and play with it. Do it with a blue gun or your tv remote and have her draw from her purse. Even a CC purse carried bandolier is an awkward draw under pressure. Every time I've had issues with people I was surprised how fast they were on me. I want to give myself every advantage for a fast draw and good weapon retention. And I don't want the weapon to ever leave my body and I occasionally put purses down.

Bottom line, I think purses are a false sense of security and feed into the "gun as a talisman" mindset rather than the gunfighter mindset a woman should have.

JMHO.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 5:35:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:nnLol. I just think it's too risky to have the gun so far out of your immediate control. What do bad guys snatch? What do children rifle through when bored? What do women leave places? What flies around in the car when you're in a collision?

Just consider it and play with it. Do it with a blue gun or your tv remote and have her draw from her purse. Even a CC purse carried bandolier is an awkward draw under pressure. Every time I've had issues with people I was surprised how fast they were on me. I want to give myself every advantage for a fast draw and good weapon retention. And I don't want the weapon to ever leave my body and I occasionally put purses down.

Bottom line, I think purses are a false sense of security and feed into the "gun as a talisman" mindset rather than the gunfighter mindset a woman should have.

JMHO.
View Quote


I think it comes down to how one carries the purse, and how one's situational awareness is.  If one carries a purse cross body (dressing to the gun), a purse snatcher is going to look for an easier target.  If you let children rifle through one's purse while carrying a gun in there, then one is an idiot - as witness the poor lass who died by her child's hands in WalMart when she left her purse carry gun in the shopping cart and the kid pulled the trigger.

Again, if one cross body carries the purse, that's no less secure than cross body carrying a slung rifle.  A purse also allows a woman to put hands on the firearm without actually drawing it, giving an advantage to her, rather than having to pull a shirt up before drawing the weapon.  A purse also gives a woman a significantly larger choice of firearms to conceal that are easy for her to manipulate, are lower recoil than very light smaller handguns of the same caliber, and can have useful additions added, such as flashlights, red dot sights, and suppressors.

I wish the fashion in the US was for men to carry purses.  I'm from New Orleans, but I stumble in high heels.  
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 5:46:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I think it comes down to how one carries the purse, and how one's situational awareness is.  If one carries a purse cross body (dressing to the gun), a purse snatcher is going to look for an easier target.  If you let children rifle through one's purse while carrying a gun in there, then one is an idiot - as witness the poor lass who died by her child's hands in WalMart when she left her purse carry gun in the shopping cart and the kid pulled the trigger.

Again, if one cross body carries the purse, that's no less secure than cross body carrying a slung rifle.  A purse also allows a woman to put hands on the firearm without actually drawing it, giving an advantage to her, rather than having to pull a shirt up before drawing the weapon.  A purse also gives a woman a significantly larger choice of firearms to conceal that are easy for her to manipulate, are lower recoil than very light smaller handguns of the same caliber, and can have useful additions added, such as flashlights, red dot sights, and suppressors.

I wish the fashion in the US was for men to carry purses.  I'm from New Orleans, but I stumble in high heels.  
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:nnLol. I just think it's too risky to have the gun so far out of your immediate control. What do bad guys snatch? What do children rifle through when bored? What do women leave places? What flies around in the car when you're in a collision?

Just consider it and play with it. Do it with a blue gun or your tv remote and have her draw from her purse. Even a CC purse carried bandolier is an awkward draw under pressure. Every time I've had issues with people I was surprised how fast they were on me. I want to give myself every advantage for a fast draw and good weapon retention. And I don't want the weapon to ever leave my body and I occasionally put purses down.

Bottom line, I think purses are a false sense of security and feed into the "gun as a talisman" mindset rather than the gunfighter mindset a woman should have.

JMHO.


I think it comes down to how one carries the purse, and how one's situational awareness is.  If one carries a purse cross body (dressing to the gun), a purse snatcher is going to look for an easier target.  If you let children rifle through one's purse while carrying a gun in there, then one is an idiot - as witness the poor lass who died by her child's hands in WalMart when she left her purse carry gun in the shopping cart and the kid pulled the trigger.

Again, if one cross body carries the purse, that's no less secure than cross body carrying a slung rifle.  A purse also allows a woman to put hands on the firearm without actually drawing it, giving an advantage to her, rather than having to pull a shirt up before drawing the weapon.  A purse also gives a woman a significantly larger choice of firearms to conceal that are easy for her to manipulate, are lower recoil than very light smaller handguns of the same caliber, and can have useful additions added, such as flashlights, red dot sights, and suppressors.

I wish the fashion in the US was for men to carry purses.  I'm from New Orleans, but I stumble in high heels.  



I just can't ever imagine a woman carrying a purse constantly and with good situational awareness. I've never seen a woman that did that.

It would just be an asspain too. I carry in the house and absolutely everywhere. Lots of places I'd never carry a purse.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 5:55:40 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:  I just can't ever imagine a woman carrying a purse constantly and with good situational awareness. I've never seen a woman that did that.

It would just be an asspain too. I carry in the house and absolutely everywhere. Lots of places I'd never carry a purse.
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Well, you can open carry in your house.  There are a lot of establishments in Texas I'm not allowed to carry in, so I can't carry absolutely everywhere I go.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 5:59:20 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:


Well, you can open carry in your house.  There are a lot of establishments in Texas I'm not allowed to carry in, so I can't carry absolutely everywhere I go.
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Quoted:
Quoted:  I just can't ever imagine a woman carrying a purse constantly and with good situational awareness. I've never seen a woman that did that.

It would just be an asspain too. I carry in the house and absolutely everywhere. Lots of places I'd never carry a purse.


Well, you can open carry in your house.  There are a lot of establishments in Texas I'm not allowed to carry in, so I can't carry absolutely everywhere I go.


I'm just saying it's easier to put it on in the morning and not have to keep track of a purse or switch from purse to holster.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 6:36:08 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
I find many women have difficulty racking the slide on the very short semi-autos.  Hand them a full size 9x19mm 1911 and they're amazed @ how easy it is to rack.

I will risk the wrath of Ms Snow, and point out that purse carry significantly expands the possible footprint of a woman's carry gun, should they choose to carry in that manner.

The little SIG 238 is locked breech, so easy to rack for a tiny .380", but I don't know how the recoil is.
View Quote


.380 recoil tends to be STOUT.

The only exception I've found was not only mild to shoot, but solved the problem in your first sentence. The Beretta 86 has a tip-up barrel that allows the gun to be charged without racking the slide.  As a byproduct of the design, the additional weight of the hinge mechanism does an awesome job of reducing felt recoil.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 7:49:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Just bought my wife a LCR in 22 mag. She likes the weight, size and the recoil isn't overpowering for her. If it was too big, she wouldn't carry it. Too much recoil, no go. She's happy. I'm happy she has something better than a sharp stick.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 3:46:54 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
Just bought my wife a LCR in 22 mag. She likes the weight, size and the recoil isn't overpowering for her. If it was too big, she wouldn't carry it. Too much recoil, no go. She's happy. I'm happy she has something better than a sharp stick.
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I just helped a 65 year old woman buy that very revolver two weeks ago.
She is so frail she could not even rack the slide on my KelTek P32!!
So I boiled it down to the Beretta Tom Cat in .32ACP because of the flip up barrel or the LCR in .22 Mag.
The LCR won out for several reasons.
Believe it or not she considers that 14 ounce revolver somewhat heavy.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 4:56:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Only thing I'd like to add is that sometimes Newton's theory is upset with guns.    An M&P .45 is a way softer shooting gun than a 1911.  IMHO.  Yet it's somewhere around 8-10 ounces less.  Actually I don't really know what the difference is loaded.  10 round to 8...  It's probably still lighter but is a lot more manageable, IMHO.  I feel like I'm shooting a slightly warm 9mm with it.  Now that said, I've shot a 9mm 1911 and that was just about the easiest shooting 9mm I've ever had the joy of shooting.  Actually a full sized USP 9mm might have been the same or even softer.  

Point being, each firearm has it's own recoil characteristics and some are just softer than others despite their weight.  Whether it's a polymer frame flexing, the bore axis or whatever.   Grips sometimes make a big difference in the amount of felt recoil.    

Also, sometimes the issue is that there are so many choices, it's hard to be able to try them all. That's mostly a good thing, but sometimes I wish things were simpler and had less to figure out.  LOL.  But really were better off with more choices.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 8:29:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Some things I'd add to your comparison of revolvers and autos
1) Revolvers are much simpler to load for someone unfamiliar with guns and of limited strength (my wife and many women).
2) Revolvers are easier to make hits with.
3) Revolvers are far more powerful. At least they can be.
4) Revolvers aren't ammo sensitive like many autos.
6) Revolvers can't be limp wristed
7) Revolvers are overall more reliable.
8) Revolvers can have lower trigger pull in DA mode. Usually much less in SA mode than autos.
9) Revolvers in general have a shorter trigger reach than double stack autos.
10) Revolvers are easy to disassemble and have very few parts to break or wear out.

Notice how few parts and no side plates on a modern revolver.
Link Posted: 8/5/2015 10:00:37 AM EDT
[#23]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Some things I'd add to your comparison of revolvers and autos


1) Revolvers are much simpler to load for someone unfamiliar with guns and of limited strength (my wife and many women).


2) Revolvers are easier to make hits with.


3) Revolvers are far more powerful. At least they can be.


4) Revolvers aren't ammo sensitive like many autos.


6) Revolvers can't be limp wristed


7) Revolvers are overall more reliable.


8) Revolvers can have lower trigger pull in DA mode. Usually much less in SA mode than autos.


9) Revolvers in general have a shorter trigger reach than double stack autos.


10) Revolvers are easy to disassemble and have very few parts to break or wear out.





Notice how few parts and no side plates on a modern revolver.


https://youtu.be/U6VsNf2-hpI
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I carry a K Frame as a CCW so obviously I like them,  but I don't agree with number 2 - my experience has been most new shooters will shoot an auto better than a revolver when shooting the revolver double action - which is how a SD revolver is shot. As for #3 with the proper SD rounds there really isn't much in it (9mm/38Spec and up). #7 with some of today's autos that gap is not what it used to be. #8: if you are comparing the revolver (especially Smith's that have a leaf [K/L] vs the coil spring [J]) to DOA autos then I'm inclined to agree, vs a striker fired one - you will get arguments. How much #9 matters will depend on one's hands. #10: I've had 3 different revolvers break parts on the range and become inoperable (1 2 different times), anything mechanical can fail. I don't remember any auto I've owned ever breaking a part during a shooting session, now in all fairness I have way more rounds out of revolvers than autos.



Oops not true; I had one of the M&P's that I had to replace the extractor on - it did fail at the range.





 
Link Posted: 8/19/2015 10:31:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Some things I'd add to your comparison of revolvers and autos
1) Revolvers are much simpler to load for someone unfamiliar with guns and of limited strength (my wife and many women).
2) Revolvers are easier to make hits with.
3) Revolvers are far more powerful. At least they can be.
4) Revolvers aren't ammo sensitive like many autos.
6) Revolvers can't be limp wristed
7) Revolvers are overall more reliable.
8) Revolvers can have lower trigger pull in DA mode. Usually much less in SA mode than autos.
9) Revolvers in general have a shorter trigger reach than double stack autos.
10) Revolvers are easy to disassemble and have very few parts to break or wear out.

Notice how few parts and no side plates on a modern revolver.
https://youtu.be/U6VsNf2-hpI
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I have chronic revolveritis, and I carry a revolver (LCR 357) more often than I carry anything else, but I disagree with a lot of what you say here.

1) I agree with this point, and I said as much in the OP.

2) Yes and no. On a "square range" when you can cock the hammer to SA and take your time, yes. In a fast and stressful situation when your life is in danger? No.

3) I don't think anyone is pointing a lady in their life towards a N-frame or X-frame for self defense, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to this conversation.

4) I'll agree with this one.

5) There is no 5?

6) This is true on the surface, but there's more to the story here. Limp-wristing is most often a symptom of anticipating recoil. Most revolvers don't do much to mechanically absorb recoil, and can actually make that anticipatory flinch worse. It's also probably worth mentioning at this point that DA revolver triggers can be short-stroked.

7) No. I'll say that a revolver left loaded in a sock drawer or glove box for months or years on end is probably better off than a semi-auto that might suffer from a corroded round stuck in the chamber or a soft mag spring. But when you start talking about high round counts, carbon buildup, and sediment exposure, semiautos win the reliability argument no contest. Semiautos don't lose their timing when they wear. Semiautos don't seem to suffer from tough loading and ejection nearly as much as revolvers seem to. And if you do experience a stoppage with a semiauto, it can be cleared very quickly assuming you have a little practice. If a revolver binds up, in a bad spot, you're screwed.

8) I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. A DA revolver needs to cycle the cylinder and cock the hammer in the same operation. A DA semiauto only needs to cock the hammer, and the resistance involved with that is mostly contingent upon the weight of the main spring necessary for reliable ignition of primers.

9) I have literally never heard of this, so I decided to check it out. The most convenient guns for me to grab for this comparison were a S&W Model 10 (round butt), a S&W Model 4006, and a Beretta 92. To compare them, I stacked them with the triggers in the same spot. Compared to both semiautos, the backstrap of the Model 10 stuck out a solid 1/2" beyond the backstrap of semis, and the top corner of the Model 10's backstrap was near the slide mounted safety on both semis. Out of curiosity, I grabbed a square butt K-frame (14) to see if there was a major difference, and it was pretty much the same. I don't think other revolvers would fair too much better in this test compared against autos, either. I'd guess a J-frame, SP101, or LCR has a trigger reach just as long if not longer than that of something like a LC9.

10) This one is a huge hell no. Field stripping a modern auto is a breeze. Tearing down a revolver is to any extent isn't really a "field" procedure. Detail stripping makes this comparison even more extreme. Anybody with a punch and access to YouTube can detail strip most of the polymer guns with little difficulty, even if they're a total novice. A revolver? Good luck with that. Outside of mags, the only parts most people will wear out on a semiauto are the recoil spring, trigger return spring, or extractor. Maybe the firing pin. And on most modern semiautos, most parts are drop in with no fitting. In addition to springs, a well worn revolver will lose lockup and/or timing as various surfaces in the lockwork wears. The trigger, the hammer, the hand, the cylinder, and the various stops/latches all must be fitted. None of that stuff just drops in.

There's a lot going on in a revolver...

Ruger-


S&W-


Chiappa -

Link Posted: 10/5/2015 6:25:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Very nice write up to the extent it applies to a "house" gun.

Note however that the ideas only limitedly apply to a CCW gun.  In that case, the options start with what someone is willing to carry.  The most I have found any sensible woman willing to purse carry is a Glock 19, simply for a size reference.  For on the body carry think instead a S&W Shield 9mm or Ruger LCR38.  The Shield is the easiest to shoot of the single stack 9s and the LCR trigger is better than any factory J frame ever made.  (This from a Glock shooter and user of a set of S&W M&P340/43/351c's.)

As a practical matter, for a "house" gun, a three pound tricked out full size service pistol is a good bit inferior to a lightweight AR15.  The AR is easier to hit with at any range, penetrates less than pistol rounds, and no one is holding the flashhider to push it out of battery after the first shot rips their fingers.  Aiming is no effort at short range when shouldering it and looking down the top will not miss at room length.
View Quote


The problem with concealed carry suggestions is that everyone is different when it comes to how big of a gun they are comfortable carrying, and how they will carry it.

I know it doesn't always work out that way, but I'd prefer that a woman choosing a concealed carry gun have enough experience with guns to make that decision herself.
Link Posted: 10/6/2015 9:11:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Nice write up but IMO, you over thought it and I disagree with some of your premises.

1. IMO, the process of helping a new, inexperienced shooter select their first hand gun is the same regardless of gender. Yes, there are some stereotypical differences between men and women that have to be considered (hand size, hand strength, etc..) but the basics are all the same. The gun has to fit the user and feel good in the hand. They have to be able to fully operate the gun and all of it's controls including being able to easily rack the side, dissemble the gun for cleaning, etc. and obviously they need to be able to shoot it well and be reasonably accurate with it.

2. There are way too many choices out there for the new shooter and it can be very overwhelming. Keep it simple. You don't have to explain to them all of the options with the pros and cons to each. You as the experience shooter may already know all of that but spare them the lecture. They came to you for your experience but that doesn't mean that they want to be bored to death discussing things that they probably won't fully understand. You will end up confusing and intimidating them more then helping them.

3. I do agree that a new shooter should not start with a small, CCW type pistol. I think they should actually start with a .22LR just to learn the basics of sight alignment, trigger control, proper grip, stance, etc. When they are ready for their first center fire hand gun, it should be something in the mid to full size category.

4. I think you dismissed revolvers a little too easily. Revolvers have a lot of advantages for a new shooter as its a much easier gun to operate and are more forgiving to the inexperienced shooter. Especially the type who may never really get serious about it and take lessens, train or practice on any regular basis. The issues you described are possible but fairly rare, especially with a quality revolver like a S&W.

5. That said, if you are going to go semi-auto then IMO, there is no good reason to start them on anything other then a 9mm. Keeping in mind we are keeping it KISS, the only 9mm's I'd have them try at first would be the Glock 19, 17 and the S&W M&P9 or 9c. Too many choices is just going to confuse them and chances are, 1 of those 4 handguns will fit them and work well for them. The M&P's have the option of an external manual safety if that's something they feel they really want or need to have.

Now I'm not saying those are the only 4 quality 9mm semi-auto handguns out there but they are all quality firearms that are reliable and capable to doing what ever most shooters (new or old) would ever need. They are widely available, affordable and have a plethora of parts and accessories available. Keep in mind, this is just their first gun, it doesn't have to be their holy grail. After shooting for a while and gaining more experience, there is no reason they can't start looking at or trying other options but these are 4 excellent guns to start with IMO. Only after having them shoot each of those 4 guns and finding that none of them are right for that user would I start looking at other options.

Just my $.02
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:00:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nice write up but IMO, you over thought it and I disagree with some of your premises.

1. IMO, the process of helping a new, inexperienced shooter select their first hand gun is the same regardless of gender. Yes, there are some stereotypical differences between men and women that have to be considered (hand size, hand strength, etc..) but the basics are all the same. The gun has to fit the user and feel good in the hand. They have to be able to fully operate the gun and all of it's controls including being able to easily rack the side, dissemble the gun for cleaning, etc. and obviously they need to be able to shoot it well and be reasonably accurate with it.

2. There are way too many choices out there for the new shooter and it can be very overwhelming. Keep it simple. You don't have to explain to them all of the options with the pros and cons to each. You as the experience shooter may already know all of that but spare them the lecture. They came to you for your experience but that doesn't mean that they want to be bored to death discussing things that they probably won't fully understand. You will end up confusing and intimidating them more then helping them.

3. I do agree that a new shooter should not start with a small, CCW type pistol. I think they should actually start with a .22LR just to learn the basics of sight alignment, trigger control, proper grip, stance, etc. When they are ready for their first center fire hand gun, it should be something in the mid to full size category.

4. I think you dismissed revolvers a little too easily. Revolvers have a lot of advantages for a new shooter as its a much easier gun to operate and are more forgiving to the inexperienced shooter. Especially the type who may never really get serious about it and take lessens, train or practice on any regular basis. The issues you described are possible but fairly rare, especially with a quality revolver like a S&W.

5. That said, if you are going to go semi-auto then IMO, there is no good reason to start them on anything other then a 9mm. Keeping in mind we are keeping it KISS, the only 9mm's I'd have them try at first would be the Glock 19, 17 and the S&W M&P9 or 9c. Too many choices is just going to confuse them and chances are, 1 of those 4 handguns will fit them and work well for them. The M&P's have the option of an external manual safety if that's something they feel they really want or need to have.

Now I'm not saying those are the only 4 quality 9mm semi-auto handguns out there but they are all quality firearms that are reliable and capable to doing what ever most shooters (new or old) would ever need. They are widely available, affordable and have a plethora of parts and accessories available. Keep in mind, this is just their first gun, it doesn't have to be their holy grail. After shooting for a while and gaining more experience, there is no reason they can't start looking at or trying other options but these are 4 excellent guns to start with IMO. Only after having them shoot each of those 4 guns and finding that none of them are right for that user would I start looking at other options.

Just my $.02
View Quote


1) The reason I targeted this thread towards advice for women is that's where I hear / read a greater concentration of bad advice. When someone asks for handgun suggestions for a man, most of the advice given is suggestions for something reasonable like a full size service pistol of some flavor. When the topic becomes a handgun for a woman, there is suddenly a stream of suggestions for Airweight J-frames and Ruger LCs, even if CCW is not part of the picture.

2) My OP is intended for people already generally familiar with firearms.

3) A .22lr is the ideal starting point, but many people buying handguns are doing so because they are either in or just experienced a bad situation. The time and interest in spending weeks / months developing fundamentals with a rimfire before getting a centerfire just isn't there.

4) Revolvers are often easier to shoot in a no stress setting, but a DA trigger has a significant learning curve, and again, reloading is out of the question. I can teach a novice to swap mags pretty easily. As far as reliability goes, I am not a stranger to revolvers. I own several, I love shooting them, and the gun I carry more often than any other is an LCR. I understand the limitations of revolvers. In my experience, a good quality revolver generally isn't any more reliable than a good quality semi, but a stoppage on a semi can be cleared much faster an easier than a stoppage on a revolver.

5) When I take novices out shooting handguns (male or female), I take my 22/45 and a handful of semis, and I always have them start with the 22/45 until they get comfortable. I briefly explain the differences between each gun before they shoot it. They talk about how much they like my G17 or my M&P 40 Pro before we shoot because they look cool and modern, but after we shoot, most walk away from the range talking about how they liked shooting my beat up old Beretta 92G. Good enough is good enough, better is better, and everyone has their own preferences.
Link Posted: 10/8/2015 1:15:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Thanks for the writeup Bassgasm.  I have a healthy number of female friends, and I've taken quite a few of them to the shooting range.  I see far too often women on the range shooting a gun that many would consider unsuitable for a first time shooter.  Like you mentioned, the J-Frames, LC9's, compact guns.  Allowing them the opportunity to fire many different guns, and leave the option open on the table is a much more easy way of easing into shooting.  

I've seen a few guys mention how a semi-auto slide is difficult to operate, and as a result it's immediately off the table as an option.  How many of us remember picking up a pistol for a first time and saying "ok this is easy, I've got this"??  I had so much difficulty operating the slide of a Beretta 92 my first outing, and it had nothing to do with strength.  It was simply due to a lack of familiarity.  Many of the girls have found that once they can apply leverage (through repetition), and operate the gun the same way anyone else would.  Mouse guns tend to be even more difficult to operate.  They tend to be very stiff, and can further frustrate a new shooter.  Also, loading a magazine can sometimes be difficult, so therefore they should be shooting revolver is absolute BS.  I think that every serious shooter should have a lula mag loader in their bag.  Heck, I find some mags stiff and hard to load.  Using a lula cuts this problem out of the equation.  

Generally, when at the range a buffet of guns is provided.  My largest, a CZ SP01 all the way down to a Glock43.  The female shooters have been pigeon holed into thinking that a tiny gun gravitate right away towards the G43, because it's "small" and "fits my hand".  After helping them load 1 round, the notion that all guns are equal quickly dissipates. The rest of the range trip is spent firing on the CZ or full size M&P9.  Also, the subject of revolvers: from what I've seen it's an idea that sounds great on paper but fails in practice.  The long DA trigger sends rounds flying downrange that would make a shotgun pattern blush.  Even on something like a 38 special, loaded with cream puff loads, the combo ofhte long trigger pull, anticipation of recoil and lack of hand strength make the gun nearly impossible to operate accurately.

Ultimately, getting someone comfortable with a gun is always an uphill battle.  For newbies, shooting is unnatural.  Keeping them handling pistols safely is priority one.  Set them up for success by making the gun as easy as possible to shoot is the next priority.  If something is fun, and relatively easy to do, they'll continue doing it.  The more repetitions that they build, the quicker they'll be on the path to being a gun nut just like any one of us.
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