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Posted: 3/2/2015 7:27:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Have him do a lot of dry fire practice. If he can do it in the morning and at night basically everyday, and then reinforce that by shooting every week or every other week at the range, then that would be great. If he is flinching a lot at the range, have him unload the gun and dry fire on the range until he stops flinching and then load the gun and try again.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 7:45:25 PM EDT
[#2]
2 ways 1 start retraining him with dry fire and a nice 22lr pistol to develop good basics 2. get a big 44mag , 45LC, or some full house 357s in a j frame let him shoot 10-20 rounds then his little 9mm won't scare him so much. DO NOT TRY METHOD 2 WITH WOMEN or girly men |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 7:58:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Lots of dry fire and .22 shooting.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:18:00 PM EDT
[#4]
I've been shooting for a little over a year now and I still flinch. Dry fire does nothing for me. I've dry fired since I got my first handgun and never flinched, but every so often when my thumb is riding the slide release and it doesn't lock back on the last round, I pull that trigger and see that front sight dip. I'm getting better, but it still happens. For me what works is a lot of practice with real ammo. Having a friend load your mags with a snap cap hidden somewhere in there also helps.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:20:03 PM EDT
[#5]
A wheelgun with a cylinder of randomly loaded live and fired cartridges. (This can be practiced solo by him or you can load it for him) He won't be able to see if it's going to go BOOM or CLICK. It'll show his flinch and with practice, he'll get over it as the point is whether it goes boom or not, the technique needs to remain the same.
ETA: Or snap cap in an auto as the poster above advises. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:21:39 PM EDT
[#6]
He has shot my .44 and my .357 plenty of times, never *noticed* him flinching, however he may had been shooting right handed at the time.
I have only seen him flinch when shooting left/left, which is his strong side(s.) I will pick up some snap caps and have him try those. Smallest handgun i have is the .357mag, so I guess some .38spls are in order. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:23:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A wheelgun with a cylinder of randomly loaded live and fired cartridges. (This can be practiced solo by him or you can load it for him) He won't be able to see if it's going to go BOOM or CLICK. It'll show his flinch and with practice, he'll get over it as the point is whether it goes boom or not, the technique needs to remain the same. ETA: Or snap cap in an auto as the poster above advises. I was thinking exactly that....I'll throw in a dud or 2 and see what happens. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:30:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Umm... Usually you can have a shooter that is flinching/jerking trigger shoot one handed with is weak hand (left handed for right handed shooters). They will need to concentrate more. I have also heard that this works because the have to engage a different part of brain to shoot this way.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:49:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Insert the mag and charge the pistol. Remove the mag.
Fire the live round. Stay on the front sight and press the trigger for a dry fire. Repeat until flinch is gone. 50 rounds yields 100 trigger presses. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 8:52:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A wheelgun with a cylinder of randomly loaded live and fired cartridges. (This can be practiced solo by him or you can load it for him) He won't be able to see if it's going to go BOOM or CLICK. It'll show his flinch and with practice, he'll get over it as the point is whether it goes boom or not, the technique needs to remain the same. ETA: Or snap cap in an auto as the poster above advises. +1. This. You really notice the flinch on a dud or non-live round you are not expecting. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 9:27:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Well that's part of why this is so tricky. He's more or less ambidextrous. He writes left, and is left eye dominant, so I had him switch from righty to lefty, and when I did his aim improved. I only just noticed the twitch, so it could be new, or there all along. Usually when we're shooting we're BOTH shooting, I just ran out of targets, so I started focusing on him in an effort to help. Like I said before, it wasn't until the dud that I noticed the flinch.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 9:27:43 PM EDT
[#12]
And thanks for the help/advice fellas.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 10:11:25 PM EDT
[#13]
I go a bit against the grain on flinches.
Mixing in snap caps can certainly diagnose what's going on, but not necessarily fix a flinch. Dry fire is great practice (when done right), but can't simulate the noise, concussion and recoil that induces the flinch. To me, there's only two ways of controlling the flinch. First, double up ear pro and shoot outdoors if possible. Second, get accustomed to the pistol going bang. If my flinch comes back during a session, I do a string of rapid fire to get myself used to the recoil. It can seem like a waste of ammo, but if it puts the flinch back in check, it's not a waste to me. Another thing that may help is relaxation. Watch his knuckles to see if he's death gripping and if it's not weird, place your hands on his shoulders/triceps as he shoots. If you feel he's tensing up, he's likely to flinch. It'll be worse as he tires too. Take a break for a bit to recoup. Work on arm strength between sessions to build more stamina. One other thing that's possible is he's trying too hard for the "perfect" shot. He lines up his sights and then tries to get his POI. When everything lines up he jerks the trigger to get the shot before his perfect shot window closes. Well, jerking the trigger will close that window. He may also be failing to follow through. Have him practice breaking the shot and holding the trigger back until he settles back on target from the recoil. Then release pressure on the trigger, while maintaining contact, to the reset. Finally, he may be wanting to see the results of his shot immediately. Have him practice keeping focus on the front sight and not checking the target until he's fired 5 shots. Just my $.02. No one has to agree with me. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 11:22:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Hickok flinches
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Posted: 3/3/2015 9:55:18 AM EDT
[#15]
If he was not flinching using the right hand you should not have encouraged him to switch hands honestly. Eye dominanice is no big deal
Pistol shooting- tilt the head a little to bring which ever eye is dominant in line with the sights. Not sure how you can tell "his aim is better" with either hand / eye use- kind of impossible if flinching is causing big groups on target, A 22 or a revolver loaded ball and dummy have already been mentioned A good patient instructor. I often take a unloaded gun, have the student grip it the. Place my grip and trigger finger over there's and press the trigger properly so they get the feed back in the finger how it feels to do it right |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 11:20:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If he was not flinching using the right hand you should not have encouraged him to switch hands honestly. Eye dominanice is no big deal Pistol shooting- tilt the head a little to bring which ever eye is dominant in line with the sights. I have to respectfully disagree. As a cross dominant shooter, I do not recommend tilting the head. Tilt the pistol instead. Tilting your head, even a slight bit, can disrupt equilibrium and orientation. The slight tilt of the pistol to line up with the dominant eye should not impact operation or proper ejection. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 11:26:47 AM EDT
[#17]
One shot at a time is how he fixes this.
He has to train his subconscious not to react. That is what a flinch is- a largely involuntary reaction to the anticipation of recoil/noise. By deliberate action on his part he can train himself out of this. The way to do it is one shot at a time. He aligns the sights properly. His grip is firm but not "strangling". He slowly squeezes the trigger- and this is important- and he keeps the trigger all the way back. He wants to follow through fully. The pistol will come down out of recoil with the trigger still fully depressed. Slowly he will let the trigger forward so he hears the "click" of the disconnector. That click is what he wants to hear on every single shot. No slapping the trigger. No speeding things up. Just slow deliberate shooting. If he feels a flinch coming on he goes back to the slow one shot at a time method. A .22LR is great because it teaches the fundamentals, but only a firearm with "real" recoil will allow him to learn to control and eliminate a flinch. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 11:42:24 AM EDT
[#18]
There is some good advice and bad advice here.
Get some snap caps, load them up randomly in magazines, have him shoot slow deliberate fire. Perhaps even set the gun down between shots (just rest the muzzle on a bench for a moment with full grip intact.) Once he is sensitive to what he is doing, have him switch to a rimfire gun or something with very soft recoil and shoot semi-rapid fire. Basically resting the front sight back on the target and immediately pressing the trigger again (don't sacrifice proper sight alignment). Then switch back to his SR45 and load one round at a time. Fire the round, then bring the front sight back to the target and dry fire. Do this 15-20 times. Then shoot as normal. Once it is worked out, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 2:17:38 PM EDT
[#19]
He's probably squeezing his strong hand as he pulls the trigger. Have him relax his strong hand and tighten up the support hand.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 3:12:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I go a bit against the grain on flinches. Mixing in snap caps can certainly diagnose what's going on, but not necessarily fix a flinch. Dry fire is great practice (when done right), but can't simulate the noise, concussion and recoil that induces the flinch. To me, there's only two ways of controlling the flinch. First, double up ear pro and shoot outdoors if possible. Second, get accustomed to the pistol going bang. If my flinch comes back during a session, I do a string of rapid fire to get myself used to the recoil. It can seem like a waste of ammo, but if it puts the flinch back in check, it's not a waste to me. Another thing that may help is relaxation. Watch his knuckles to see if he's death gripping and if it's not weird, place your hands on his shoulders/triceps as he shoots. If you feel he's tensing up, he's likely to flinch. It'll be worse as he tires too. Take a break for a bit to recoup. Work on arm strength between sessions to build more stamina. One other thing that's possible is he's trying too hard for the "perfect" shot. He lines up his sights and then tries to get his POI. When everything lines up he jerks the trigger to get the shot before his perfect shot window closes. Well, jerking the trigger will close that window. He may also be failing to follow through. Have him practice breaking the shot and holding the trigger back until he settles back on target from the recoil. Then release pressure on the trigger, while maintaining contact, to the reset. Finally, he may be wanting to see the results of his shot immediately. Have him practice keeping focus on the front sight and not checking the target until he's fired 5 shots. Just my $.02. No one has to agree with me. I'd like to second this post. Dry firing practice has never worked for me as a method of reducing anticipation/flinching. It's all well and good until you press the trigger on a live round, then the flinch will likely be back. You're not going to flinch when you know you're dry firing, so you're really just training to press the trigger without disturbing the sights (not that there's no value at all in that). Lots of live fire practice and being willing to let the round go off as long as the sights are within your natural arc of motion while on target--not forcing the round to go off when the sight picture is "perfect." Accept the natural sight movement, have proper sight alignment, smooth steady press to the rear, the trigger never stops moving rearward--don't pause its movement, continually adding pressure to the trigger rearward until the weapon fires. You don't pull the trigger to cause the gun to go off. You just continue to intentionally add pressure to the trigger until the weapon happens to go off, sights aligned and on target. Should be damn close to the X ring. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 3:48:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to second this post. Dry firing practice has never worked for me as a method of reducing anticipation/flinching. It's all well and good until you press the trigger on a live round, then the flinch will likely be back. You're not going to flinch when you know you're dry firing, so you're really just training to press the trigger without disturbing the sights (not that there's no value at all in that). Lots of live fire practice and being willing to let the round go off as long as the sights are within your natural arc of motion while on target--not forcing the round to go off when the sight picture is "perfect." Accept the natural sight movement, have proper sight alignment, smooth steady press to the rear, the trigger never stops moving rearward--don't pause its movement, continually adding pressure to the trigger rearward until the weapon fires. You don't pull the trigger to cause the gun to go off. You just continue to intentionally add pressure to the trigger until the weapon happens to go off, sights aligned and on target. Should be damn close to the X ring. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I go a bit against the grain on flinches. Mixing in snap caps can certainly diagnose what's going on, but not necessarily fix a flinch. Dry fire is great practice (when done right), but can't simulate the noise, concussion and recoil that induces the flinch. To me, there's only two ways of controlling the flinch. First, double up ear pro and shoot outdoors if possible. Second, get accustomed to the pistol going bang. If my flinch comes back during a session, I do a string of rapid fire to get myself used to the recoil. It can seem like a waste of ammo, but if it puts the flinch back in check, it's not a waste to me. Another thing that may help is relaxation. Watch his knuckles to see if he's death gripping and if it's not weird, place your hands on his shoulders/triceps as he shoots. If you feel he's tensing up, he's likely to flinch. It'll be worse as he tires too. Take a break for a bit to recoup. Work on arm strength between sessions to build more stamina. One other thing that's possible is he's trying too hard for the "perfect" shot. He lines up his sights and then tries to get his POI. When everything lines up he jerks the trigger to get the shot before his perfect shot window closes. Well, jerking the trigger will close that window. He may also be failing to follow through. Have him practice breaking the shot and holding the trigger back until he settles back on target from the recoil. Then release pressure on the trigger, while maintaining contact, to the reset. Finally, he may be wanting to see the results of his shot immediately. Have him practice keeping focus on the front sight and not checking the target until he's fired 5 shots. Just my $.02. No one has to agree with me. I'd like to second this post. Dry firing practice has never worked for me as a method of reducing anticipation/flinching. It's all well and good until you press the trigger on a live round, then the flinch will likely be back. You're not going to flinch when you know you're dry firing, so you're really just training to press the trigger without disturbing the sights (not that there's no value at all in that). Lots of live fire practice and being willing to let the round go off as long as the sights are within your natural arc of motion while on target--not forcing the round to go off when the sight picture is "perfect." Accept the natural sight movement, have proper sight alignment, smooth steady press to the rear, the trigger never stops moving rearward--don't pause its movement, continually adding pressure to the trigger rearward until the weapon fires. You don't pull the trigger to cause the gun to go off. You just continue to intentionally add pressure to the trigger until the weapon happens to go off, sights aligned and on target. Should be damn close to the X ring. If the flinch is based on a reason like, too loud, too much recoil, or trying to snatch at the right sight picture, what you've both said are smart comments about doing the simple before the complex. Doubling up on ear pro and reviewing the fundamentals are easy to do. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 3:49:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Somebody jumping into a 45 too soon. I can't tell how many times I've seen this in 20 years of coaching/instructing. My technique has always been go back to the 22 and slowly work back up.. Usually this works but it's not a certainty. Getting rid of a flinch is probably the hardest thing in shooting. Some never get over it.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 4:15:24 PM EDT
[#23]
SR 45 is probably the worst handgun you could have him shooting. It's too light for .45, and it is going to be hard to train out a flinch. He needs to shoot some 9mm, or use a heavier gun in .45. It's the recoil and not the bang that induces a flinch. Doubling up on ear protection, ball and dummy, dry fire, and live fire practice will all help. If he starts progressing and developing the fundamentals, the flinch will start to dissipate, but it can return after a while of not shooting.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 4:49:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SR 45 is probably the worst handgun you could have him shooting. It's too light for .45, and it is going to be hard to train out a flinch. Quote HistoryQuoted:
SR 45 is probably the worst handgun you could have him shooting. It's too light for .45, and it is going to be hard to train out a flinch. ^That's a load of BS, and not helpful in any way. And it's the gun HE decided he liked. I actually tried talking him into a couple others. He picked the SR45. It's not the prettiest gun, by any means, but short of a lighter-than-preferred firing pin, it's just as good to shoot as any other full-size .45, almost identical in size/weight to my M&P .45. And he's shot .357mag and .44mag for years. Quoted:
Somebody jumping into a 45 too soon. Again, that's a load of BS. He's shot .44 and .357 for years. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 5:10:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^That's a load of BS, and not helpful in any way. And it's the gun HE decided he liked. I actually tried talking him into a couple others. He picked the SR45. It's not the prettiest gun, by any means, but short of a lighter-than-preferred firing pin, it's just as good to shoot as any other full-size .45, almost identical in size/weight to my M&P .45. And he's shot .357mag and .44mag for years. Again, that's a load of BS. He's shot .44 and .357 for years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SR 45 is probably the worst handgun you could have him shooting. It's too light for .45, and it is going to be hard to train out a flinch. ^That's a load of BS, and not helpful in any way. And it's the gun HE decided he liked. I actually tried talking him into a couple others. He picked the SR45. It's not the prettiest gun, by any means, but short of a lighter-than-preferred firing pin, it's just as good to shoot as any other full-size .45, almost identical in size/weight to my M&P .45. And he's shot .357mag and .44mag for years. Quoted:
Somebody jumping into a 45 too soon. Again, that's a load of BS. He's shot .44 and .357 for years. The fact that he's flinching with it says otherwise. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 7:50:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Put a coin on the slide and dry fire...objective: coin does not fall off.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 7:56:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that he's flinching with it says otherwise. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: SR 45 is probably the worst handgun you could have him shooting. It's too light for .45, and it is going to be hard to train out a flinch. ^That's a load of BS, and not helpful in any way. And it's the gun HE decided he liked. I actually tried talking him into a couple others. He picked the SR45. It's not the prettiest gun, by any means, but short of a lighter-than-preferred firing pin, it's just as good to shoot as any other full-size .45, almost identical in size/weight to my M&P .45. And he's shot .357mag and .44mag for years. Quoted: Somebody jumping into a 45 too soon. Again, that's a load of BS. He's shot .44 and .357 for years. The fact that he's flinching with it says otherwise. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 9:08:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all flinches are recoil sensitivity. I'm trying to keep my son from developing the bad habit of acting out recoil when he plays with toy guns. (Where he makes a noise and rocks the toy in his hand) Once that gets ingrained with muscle memory, it'll be a bitch to overcome as one will jerk the gun out of habit even when live firing. If the OP's brother played a lot of "Cowboys & Indians" or "Cops & Robbers" as a kid and acted out the recoil, that may be part of it... |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 9:40:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Buddy I have to disagree too. I shoot combat pistols right hand left eyed and managed to earn a distinguished badge that way as part of a military team and also am a gssf master. Does not seem to have affected anything in a negative way
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Posted: 3/3/2015 10:18:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of dry fire and .22 shooting. This. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 11:27:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Insert the mag and charge the pistol. Remove the mag. Fire the live round. Stay on the front sight and press the trigger for a dry fire. Repeat until flinch is gone. 50 rounds yields 100 trigger presses. This has helped me the most with this problem |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 12:39:45 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all flinches are recoil sensitivity. Recoil anticipation / control attempt. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 12:55:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Great thread, thanks. I struggle with this too, and I find it gets worse as I go along in my range session. Any suggestions for that?
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Posted: 3/4/2015 1:11:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Great thread, thanks. I struggle with this too, and I find it gets worse as I go along in my range session. Any suggestions for that? Fatigue and the report of the pistol firing over and over can add up over the range session, cause anticipation and general sloppiness. Double hearing protection can help and a conscious thought process to *not* anticipate the recoil, just press the trigger. I have a tendency to anticipate and it's a tough one to break. When I feel myself doing it or start missing low left, I know that I have to slow down and focus on just pressing the trigger. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 5:44:39 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Great thread, thanks. I struggle with this too, and I find it gets worse as I go along in my range session. Any suggestions for that? I have a tendency to get sloppy and not focus, too quickly sometimes, as a session continues. So rather than just fire lead downrange, I slowdown my pace by loading 3-5 rounds and sweep the brass between magazines. I try to refocus between mags. If my bad habits continue, I might switch platforms (semi to revolver) or I just quit--I don't want to reinforce bad habits. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 10:24:30 AM EDT
[#36]
Agree to keep range sessions short and if you get sloppy stop take a break or quit for the day. There is an old saying perfect practice makes prefect. Limit any range session to 100 rounds max. With our busy lives these days it often becomes a case of having one period of time every week or two to shoot and the tendency is to do a blast o thon which makes people get sloppy and then you reinforce that.
Six fifty round sessions a week are better than one 300 round session. People like to disregard bullseye shooting as irrelevant today with so much focus on combat type shooting. Most of the best "combat style" shooters I know are experienced bullseye shooters. The slow pace and precision required of bullseye allows time to analyze what you are doing and even the slightest deviation from proper technique will show on the target. Many people shoot tight 7 yard groups ( where a lot of mistakes can be made but still not be evident on paper) that can barely hold a group on an 8.5x11 paper at 25 yards. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 11:17:07 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great thread, thanks. I struggle with this too, and I find it gets worse as I go along in my range session. Any suggestions for that? Sometimes my mind wanders towards the end of a long session and I let my fundamentals slip just to put rounds on target. I either pack up and go home, clean up brass for a bit, switch to rifle, or do single shot drills. One round in the mag, load the gun, remove the mag. Then I fire and dry fire. Not controlled pairs fast, but fairly quick. Enough to get a good sight picture and trigger press. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 12:08:33 PM EDT
[#38]
My dad had this problem because all he had ever shot for years was magnum rifles and I can still to this day watch he get ready for recoil behind an AR the first few shots then he settles. He has to keep shooting and shoot often while focusing on his fundamentals. Shooting 22 may help but at the end of the day he will have to pick that 9mm back up and shoot. Go buy a ton of ammo and get him to shoot. Try to get away from square ranges also find a place he can move about change distance to target or angle.
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Posted: 3/4/2015 1:00:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Golfers often times have a mental checklist before taking each swing, I've found I shoot better when I have an established pre shot thought process to establish the goal throughout the shot or string of shots.
Sometimes it helps, sometimes I shoot poorly even though I've gone through my checklist but more often than not, it does help. I typically have two things on my checklist: *Smooth* *No anticipation* Every time I am ready to shoot a stage or drill, I say these two things mentally to establish goals for the process. More often than not it does help and it sets the focus. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 4:20:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^That's a load of BS, and not helpful in any way. And it's the gun HE decided he liked. I actually tried talking him into a couple others. He picked the SR45. It's not the prettiest gun, by any means, but short of a lighter-than-preferred firing pin, it's just as good to shoot as any other full-size .45, almost identical in size/weight to my M&P .45. And he's shot .357mag and .44mag for years. Again, that's a load of BS. He's shot .44 and .357 for years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SR 45 is probably the worst handgun you could have him shooting. It's too light for .45, and it is going to be hard to train out a flinch. ^That's a load of BS, and not helpful in any way. And it's the gun HE decided he liked. I actually tried talking him into a couple others. He picked the SR45. It's not the prettiest gun, by any means, but short of a lighter-than-preferred firing pin, it's just as good to shoot as any other full-size .45, almost identical in size/weight to my M&P .45. And he's shot .357mag and .44mag for years. Quoted:
Somebody jumping into a 45 too soon. Again, that's a load of BS. He's shot .44 and .357 for years. You're obviously an expert and don't need any advice, why can't you figure this one out on your own? Seriously, Ruger is a popular brand here where I live. I don't own an SR 45, but I carried a P345D for a looong time, and it's a safe bet that the SR45 comes in at 29oz like the P345. You're saying that he has 2" groups on the bullseye at 15yds shooting your M&P .45, but develops a terrible flinch when shooting a Ruger branded gun? What guns did he shoot .357 and .44 out of? Heavier revolvers that are designed for the round? Not a good comparison considering that the slide doesn't recoil back on a revolver, and most .357 I've shot have been designed to handle the load really well. A 1911 is designed to handle .45 really well, but Ruger's polymer framed guns trade off shootability to be more carry friendly. A 29oz polymer framed handgun doesn't handle the recoil as well as a 40oz 1911, and all it takes is shooting them both to see that. Better yet, try shooting one of those 2 shot double tap pocket pistols chambered in .45 to see just how much the gun's size affects recoil. I replied here because I just convinced a friend last week that .45 in a lightweight handgun was not helping with his flinch, and I recognized the flinch in his shooting from my own experience training out a flinch when carrying the P345. I had very few friends that didn't flinch when shooting the P345 (first shots always the best, then they start jerking low), but could shoot 9mm and 1911s chambered in .45 very well. It's not a good beginner's gun, and if you think 100rd trips to the range a couple times a year makes him any more than a beginner, you need to read some more threads here. I shoot 100-200rds every week, mostly in .45 this year, and had a flinch start to re appear last weekend when changing from a Full sized government model to a Commander which is 33oz. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 5:42:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're obviously an expert and don't need any advice, why can't you figure this one out on your own? Seriously, Ruger is a popular brand here where I live. I don't own an SR 45, but I carried a P345D for a looong time, and it's a safe bet that the SR45 comes in at 29oz like the P345. You're saying that he has 2" groups on the bullseye at 15yds shooting your M&P .45, but develops a terrible flinch when shooting a Ruger branded gun? What guns did he shoot .357 and .44 out of? Heavier revolvers that are designed for the round? Not a good comparison considering that the slide doesn't recoil back on a revolver, and most .357 I've shot have been designed to handle the load really well. A 1911 is designed to handle .45 really well, but Ruger's polymer framed guns trade off shootability to be more carry friendly. A 29oz polymer framed handgun doesn't handle the recoil as well as a 40oz 1911, and all it takes is shooting them both to see that. Better yet, try shooting one of those 2 shot double tap pocket pistols chambered in .45 to see just how much the gun's size affects recoil. I replied here because I just convinced a friend last week that .45 in a lightweight handgun was not helping with his flinch, and I recognized the flinch in his shooting from my own experience training out a flinch when carrying the P345. I had very few friends that didn't flinch when shooting the P345 (first shots always the best, then they start jerking low), but could shoot 9mm and 1911s chambered in .45 very well. It's not a good beginner's gun, and if you think 100rd trips to the range a couple times a year makes him any more than a beginner, you need to read some more threads here. I shoot 100-200rds every week, mostly in .45 this year, and had a flinch start to re appear last weekend when changing from a Full sized government model to a Commander which is 33oz. You're a know-it-all aren't you? One experience doesn't make you an expert, and by your own admission you have no experience with the gun in question. Hey genius: Just because you shoot ONE pistol made by a manufacturer doesn't make you an expert in the brand. Unlike you, I've actually shot the SR45 plenty of times. Weight/recoil is not an issue, at all. And he's shot my SP101 .357mag, Super Redhawk .44, and 340PD in .357mag. And apparently you missed the part where I COMPARED my M&P to the SR45. I never said anything about him shooting the M&P. And I go once a week or so to the range....always shooting a wide variety of weapons.... and average anywhere from 100rounds to a thousand rounds per visit. 3 days ago was somewhere in the 500 rounds range. You sure make a lot of ASSumptions. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 6:08:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Stay on topic and keep it non-personal.
Thanks |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 10:28:06 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Insert the mag and charge the pistol. Remove the mag. Fire the live round. Stay on the front sight and press the trigger for a dry fire. Repeat until flinch is gone. 50 rounds yields 100 trigger presses. I was going to suggest the same thing. It's a great drill |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 5:34:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was going to suggest the same thing. It's a great drill Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Insert the mag and charge the pistol. Remove the mag. Fire the live round. Stay on the front sight and press the trigger for a dry fire. Repeat until flinch is gone. 50 rounds yields 100 trigger presses. I was going to suggest the same thing. It's a great drill I had been shooting pistols all my life and doing it wrong and developed some very bad habits; a flinch being one of them. This drill corrected that among others. If I try and speed up my shooting too fast, I begin slapping the trigger and the flinch will return. This is immediately apparent when the holes start appearing low and left of the target. Returning to the flinch drill dials me back in. Speed comes simply with repetition. I have also learned to avoid "plinking" or "mad minutes" because for me all that does is allow bad form and habits to return. Over time, many live rounds, and three times the dry fires, my shooting has improved significantly. I start almost every shooting session with two or three magazines of flinch drills, and close the session out the same way. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 9:50:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Good thread.
Though it's hard to compete with "Would you nail this tranny" threads. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 4:41:12 AM EDT
[#46]
Looks like all my suggestions have been covered, but I'll say them anyways:
-Lots and lots and lots of dry firing. Get good enough to be able to call where the shot went when the trigger broke. -Double ear protection (plugs plus muffs; its a major flinch helper) -Bullseye targets at 25 yards (it helps to teach the principles of accuracy) -Slow fire (make him rest between shots as an added bonus) -5 rounds per mag -Throw in some dummy rounds (as an added bonus, it will help practice tap and rack malfunction drills) Some of my tips: -FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT! Focus only on the front sight and tell yourself "FRONT SIGHT" while squeezing the trigger to remind yourself where to look. -Accept the arc of movement. The sights will move around the target while aiming. Just accept the movement, keep aiming, keep looking at the front sight, and slowly squeeze the trigger. You will get worse groups if you try to fight the arc of movement by quickly pulling the trigger when the sights are aligned with the target. Just accept the natural arc of movement and group sizes will be improved. -Every shot should be a surprise. Accept the arc of movement and slowly squeeze the trigger while focusing on the front sight. The firing of the gun will come as a surprise. The trigger will also feel 20 times heavier than normal but that's how it should feel when you're doing it right. -Put aside the semi-auto and get out a revolver. -Where an eye patch on the nondominate eye. It sounds dorky but it really helps with focusing on sights and with eye endurance. -You will have good days and bad days, but either way, there will be a point in which you will get physically and mentally tired out. Continuing beyond that will just create and/or reinforce bad habits so pack it up and call it a day. The range will still be there tomorrow. Above all, LEAVE THE MAGNUMS AT HOME! You can revisit them after you have the fundamentals down as a habit, but until them, they will just further ruin the shooter. |
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Posted: 3/10/2015 10:04:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's probably squeezing his strong hand as he pulls the trigger. Have him relax his strong hand and tighten up the support hand. this was the best advice I was given - "hold it like a fine woman" made a world of difference. that and dry-fire daily. |
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Posted: 3/11/2015 10:42:57 PM EDT
[#48]
My technique for using snap caps at the range by myself in a semi-auto is...
1. Have 3 magazines, 10 rounds, 5 snap caps (or whatever combination) 2. Mix the rounds and snap caps up 3. Load 5 rounds in a magazine without looking, for the 3 magazines 4. Mix the magazines up 5. Load handgun without looking at the magazine or chamber 6. Fire and reload once (magazines 1 & 2) 7. Unload the third magazine and repeat. That keeps the snapcaps random. Saves money too. |
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