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Posted: 9/6/2014 12:27:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A freind of mine was very disappointed when he bought a soft armor panel and shot it with his FiveseveN Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The caliber sucks. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The civilian ammo sucks Caliber has a niche appliation Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm not 100% sure it even has that niche anymore, with the growing popularity of rifle-grade armor the 5.7 is losing its only claim to fame. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile A freind of mine was very disappointed when he bought a soft armor panel and shot it with his FiveseveN |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 12:31:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You will not make faster or more accurate doubles or triples with a FSN than I will with a 1911 or a full size Glock 9mm. Not happening The American eagle ammo is rebranded FN. Or rather, the FN ammo is actually rebranded America Eagle Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 5.7 is a great round it is more than a 22 mag despite internet lore. american eagle makes FMJ ammo for the public the varmit ammo (blue tip) will fragment instantly that is what varmit ammo does.- it is not good for SD IMO the hp ammo is a great compromise. I have not shot anything of size with my ps90 but a few big white turkeys and 3 coyotes have fallen to it the hp ammo is the best way to go IMO the advantages is rapid double & triple taps, high capacity and small size the disadvantages big front sight - night sights are hard to find if they exsist. the safety is very odd and takes alot of time to get comfy with. You will not make faster or more accurate doubles or triples with a FSN than I will with a 1911 or a full size Glock 9mm. Not happening The American eagle ammo is rebranded FN. Or rather, the FN ammo is actually rebranded America Eagle All brass is made by FN. SS197 is loaded by Fiocchi, who also loads the 40gr TMJ round that's rebranded as AE. Wincehster back in the early 2000s loaded some 5.7 as well. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 12:51:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The truth is that no military has adopted the FiveSeveN. Limited LE purchases have not been repeated and most abandoned. No other mainline handgun manufacturer has built a handgun to add this round to their lineup. Those are three MAJOR clues that should get your attention. Personally, I think it's a geeky POS that solves ZERO modern handgun issues. The available ammo is pretty limited compared to the naughty ammo (which has limitations as well), and the geeky boutique ammo from Elite Ammo is very difficult to come by, and has blown up a few dozen of these guns. You would think that between the ATF raids and their own production issues, they would figure out a way to not blow up the guns, but that is really how close these cartridges are to their limit. EA ammo is absolutely useless unicorn horn dust unless I can reliably buy it in bulk from online retailers or in brick and mortar retail stores like any other defense ammo. Oh yeah, The sights are all screwy with one type of pistol only shooting true for one type of ammo and vice-versa. The safety is located in the wrong place, and the plastic slide cover is chintzy crap. The trigger leaves a lot to be desired, and the gun is actually TOO light for it's trigger. Parts are mostly castings or polymer, and it's a blowback design. Essentially, a fancy Hi Point, but unlike Hi Point, FN customer service is near nonexistent except for trying to blame YOU for breaking it. (probably true with all the ammo hacks blowing them up) 5.7x28mm works a lot better for stitching up a bad guy at close range with a 6-10 round burst out of a 10" barrel out of a P90 with the MIL/LE only ammo. And even that is questionable. Single rounds fired out of a 5" barrel using the gay civilian ammo is SUPER questionable. Just get an Hk P30L if you want to be different and spend a ton of money on some geeky euro-gun. Don't quite a few special forces units around the world employ either the P90 or FSN. At least according to references from a few years ago. Mexico, Napal, and Spain to name a few? I think to date there has been maybe 5-6 documented KB! on the FSN, and the most notable one was with the guys own handloads, not EA's. There was even one gentleman who who's KB he claimed was from SS197SR. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 1:53:15 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't quite a few special forces units around the world employ either the P90 or FSN. At least according to references from a few years ago. Mexico, Napal, and Spain to name a few? I think to date there has been maybe 5-6 documented KB! on the FSN, and the most notable one was with the guys own handloads, not EA's. There was even one gentleman who who's KB he claimed was from SS197SR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The truth is that no military has adopted the FiveSeveN. Limited LE purchases have not been repeated and most abandoned. No other mainline handgun manufacturer has built a handgun to add this round to their lineup. Those are three MAJOR clues that should get your attention. Personally, I think it's a geeky POS that solves ZERO modern handgun issues. The available ammo is pretty limited compared to the naughty ammo (which has limitations as well), and the geeky boutique ammo from Elite Ammo is very difficult to come by, and has blown up a few dozen of these guns. You would think that between the ATF raids and their own production issues, they would figure out a way to not blow up the guns, but that is really how close these cartridges are to their limit. EA ammo is absolutely useless unicorn horn dust unless I can reliably buy it in bulk from online retailers or in brick and mortar retail stores like any other defense ammo. Oh yeah, The sights are all screwy with one type of pistol only shooting true for one type of ammo and vice-versa. The safety is located in the wrong place, and the plastic slide cover is chintzy crap. The trigger leaves a lot to be desired, and the gun is actually TOO light for it's trigger. Parts are mostly castings or polymer, and it's a blowback design. Essentially, a fancy Hi Point, but unlike Hi Point, FN customer service is near nonexistent except for trying to blame YOU for breaking it. (probably true with all the ammo hacks blowing them up) 5.7x28mm works a lot better for stitching up a bad guy at close range with a 6-10 round burst out of a 10" barrel out of a P90 with the MIL/LE only ammo. And even that is questionable. Single rounds fired out of a 5" barrel using the gay civilian ammo is SUPER questionable. Just get an Hk P30L if you want to be different and spend a ton of money on some geeky euro-gun. I think to date there has been maybe 5-6 documented KB! on the FSN, and the most notable one was with the guys own handloads, not EA's. There was even one gentleman who who's KB he claimed was from SS197SR. That list of users looked like BS. "So and so heard ...." Type stuff. I think the military units that use them are on the level of Ghadaffi's all-female Amazonian guards. Essentially...cake decorations with guns for glitzy dictator entourages. Real shooty units.....not so much. Especially the FSN handgun. That is exclusively in the realm of video game graduates. The P90 is slightly more successful, but for obvious reasons. (Hint....it's not a semi auto handgun) I suspect that the number of KB'd guns is higher,mans plenty of them are from people playing on the razors edge of that case design. It also wouldn't surprise me if factory ammo blew a few up. This case is right on the razors edge |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 3:10:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The civilian ammo sucks Caliber has a niche appliation Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The caliber sucks. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The civilian ammo sucks Caliber has a niche appliation Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is true. It was originally designed to defeat body armor. Hardened, fast, small diameter projectiles are great at that. It's literally made to poke holes in things. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 3:40:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For those who say it sucks as a round, look at the Ft Hood shooting. A dozen dead and another 31 wounded. About the same lethality as any other pistol round. Big difference between executions and fighting for your life. The most common scenario for s gunfight is danger close from the hip into the gut or pelvis. You need a big bullet that can break bone for that. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 3:47:36 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 4:24:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. In a perfect world I would indeed agree with you. However, I don't live in perfect world. I like the .45 ACP, and it took years for me to come to the realization that good 9mm loads existed, (though I always liked .38 Super, but then so did Jeff Cooper). I rank it like this. Good 9mm JHPs and above are about all you can get out of a pistol, (which includes .357, .41, .44, and .45 WInMag. ( A lesson it took me a long time to swallow). I still believe that the best .45 JHP is a tad bit better than the best 9mm JHP, but they are still very similar in performance. Enter the less than service cartridge calibers; The .32 ACP, the .25 ACP, yes, even the popular .380, and maybe even the 7.62 Tokarev and the original Luger round. Now, shock!, Shock! The .22LR! Yes, with perfect placement all of these cartridges will work. (I know that perfect placement is difficult, even on the range, and even more difficult in a real social situation). What I think of as "old people" cartridges, (my next door neighbor growing up had landed on Omaha Beach, when I knew him, he was carrying a .22LR), will work, but need CNS hits. Read some of the old Matt Helm novels to see this viewpoint first hand. Not saying that it is right, but it existed, and served many well. Let's face it, in a defensive situation, the display of a gun will stop hostilities part of the time. The discharge of a gun, even though it does not strike the target, will also stop hostilities a part of the time. (By which I mean, the assailant drops, thinking that they have been shot). Some times a hit which in the old movies would be described as a "flesh wound" would stop hostile activity. Sadly, some times it takes a bullet to the CNS to stop some one. Yes, those shot with big bullets do bleed out faster, but they can still do some damage before they do. CNS hits are the surest stoppers, but difficult to achieve in real world scenarios. However, with a FiveseveN, they are a bit easier to obtain, and for those of us who are a bit infirm, due to injury, (my case), or old age, (I raise my hand again), the 5.7 is a good choice. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 10:58:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That list of users looked like BS. "So and so heard ...." Type stuff. I think the military units that use them are on the level of Ghadaffi's all-female Amazonian guards. Essentially...cake decorations with guns for glitzy dictator entourages. Real shooty units.....not so much. Especially the FSN handgun. That is exclusively in the realm of video game graduates. The P90 is slightly more successful, but for obvious reasons. (Hint....it's not a semi auto handgun) I suspect that the number of KB'd guns is higher,mans plenty of them are from people playing on the razors edge of that case design. It also wouldn't surprise me if factory ammo blew a few up. This case is right on the razors edge Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The truth is that no military has adopted the FiveSeveN. Limited LE purchases have not been repeated and most abandoned. No other mainline handgun manufacturer has built a handgun to add this round to their lineup. Those are three MAJOR clues that should get your attention. Personally, I think it's a geeky POS that solves ZERO modern handgun issues. The available ammo is pretty limited compared to the naughty ammo (which has limitations as well), and the geeky boutique ammo from Elite Ammo is very difficult to come by, and has blown up a few dozen of these guns. You would think that between the ATF raids and their own production issues, they would figure out a way to not blow up the guns, but that is really how close these cartridges are to their limit. EA ammo is absolutely useless unicorn horn dust unless I can reliably buy it in bulk from online retailers or in brick and mortar retail stores like any other defense ammo. Oh yeah, The sights are all screwy with one type of pistol only shooting true for one type of ammo and vice-versa. The safety is located in the wrong place, and the plastic slide cover is chintzy crap. The trigger leaves a lot to be desired, and the gun is actually TOO light for it's trigger. Parts are mostly castings or polymer, and it's a blowback design. Essentially, a fancy Hi Point, but unlike Hi Point, FN customer service is near nonexistent except for trying to blame YOU for breaking it. (probably true with all the ammo hacks blowing them up) 5.7x28mm works a lot better for stitching up a bad guy at close range with a 6-10 round burst out of a 10" barrel out of a P90 with the MIL/LE only ammo. And even that is questionable. Single rounds fired out of a 5" barrel using the gay civilian ammo is SUPER questionable. Just get an Hk P30L if you want to be different and spend a ton of money on some geeky euro-gun. I think to date there has been maybe 5-6 documented KB! on the FSN, and the most notable one was with the guys own handloads, not EA's. There was even one gentleman who who's KB he claimed was from SS197SR. That list of users looked like BS. "So and so heard ...." Type stuff. I think the military units that use them are on the level of Ghadaffi's all-female Amazonian guards. Essentially...cake decorations with guns for glitzy dictator entourages. Real shooty units.....not so much. Especially the FSN handgun. That is exclusively in the realm of video game graduates. The P90 is slightly more successful, but for obvious reasons. (Hint....it's not a semi auto handgun) I suspect that the number of KB'd guns is higher,mans plenty of them are from people playing on the razors edge of that case design. It also wouldn't surprise me if factory ammo blew a few up. This case is right on the razors edge I'm not sure how much the list is updated, but The Belgian army purchased the MK2 in 2013: December 7, 2012, the Belgian Government has approved a contract worth 12.2 million euros (about 0.3 million less than expected) with FN Herstal for the delivery pistols Five-Seven Mk 2 and P90 submachine guns, to replace worn-GP Browning and FN UZI for ammunition 9 mm x 19 thus Belgium is the first country to completely over with a new cartridge pistol 5,7 mm x 28 (Belgians exchanged small arms, 2012-12-06). In Poland, the FN Five-Seven is used by GROM (GROM has been 21 years, 2011-06-14) and CBS. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 11:35:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. 5.7 rounds are certainly capable of breaking bone. One of my pork tests shows SS197SR was fully capable of breaking a pork shoulder bone, whereas in another test, .45 Ranger-T (230gr +P) stopped during penetration laying to rest on the shoulder bone. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 11:41:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure how much the list is updated, but The Belgian army purchased the MK2 in 2013: http://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=10273 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The truth is that no military has adopted the FiveSeveN. Limited LE purchases have not been repeated and most abandoned. No other mainline handgun manufacturer has built a handgun to add this round to their lineup. Those are three MAJOR clues that should get your attention. Personally, I think it's a geeky POS that solves ZERO modern handgun issues. The available ammo is pretty limited compared to the naughty ammo (which has limitations as well), and the geeky boutique ammo from Elite Ammo is very difficult to come by, and has blown up a few dozen of these guns. You would think that between the ATF raids and their own production issues, they would figure out a way to not blow up the guns, but that is really how close these cartridges are to their limit. EA ammo is absolutely useless unicorn horn dust unless I can reliably buy it in bulk from online retailers or in brick and mortar retail stores like any other defense ammo. Oh yeah, The sights are all screwy with one type of pistol only shooting true for one type of ammo and vice-versa. The safety is located in the wrong place, and the plastic slide cover is chintzy crap. The trigger leaves a lot to be desired, and the gun is actually TOO light for it's trigger. Parts are mostly castings or polymer, and it's a blowback design. Essentially, a fancy Hi Point, but unlike Hi Point, FN customer service is near nonexistent except for trying to blame YOU for breaking it. (probably true with all the ammo hacks blowing them up) 5.7x28mm works a lot better for stitching up a bad guy at close range with a 6-10 round burst out of a 10" barrel out of a P90 with the MIL/LE only ammo. And even that is questionable. Single rounds fired out of a 5" barrel using the gay civilian ammo is SUPER questionable. Just get an Hk P30L if you want to be different and spend a ton of money on some geeky euro-gun. I think to date there has been maybe 5-6 documented KB! on the FSN, and the most notable one was with the guys own handloads, not EA's. There was even one gentleman who who's KB he claimed was from SS197SR. That list of users looked like BS. "So and so heard ...." Type stuff. I think the military units that use them are on the level of Ghadaffi's all-female Amazonian guards. Essentially...cake decorations with guns for glitzy dictator entourages. Real shooty units.....not so much. Especially the FSN handgun. That is exclusively in the realm of video game graduates. The P90 is slightly more successful, but for obvious reasons. (Hint....it's not a semi auto handgun) I suspect that the number of KB'd guns is higher,mans plenty of them are from people playing on the razors edge of that case design. It also wouldn't surprise me if factory ammo blew a few up. This case is right on the razors edge http://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=10273 December 7, 2012, the Belgian Government has approved a contract worth 12.2 million euros (about 0.3 million less than expected) with FN Herstal for the delivery pistols Five-Seven Mk 2 and P90 submachine guns, to replace worn-GP Browning and FN UZI for ammunition 9 mm x 19 thus Belgium is the first country to completely over with a new cartridge pistol 5,7 mm x 28 (Belgians exchanged small arms, 2012-12-06). In Poland, the FN Five-Seven is used by GROM (GROM has been 21 years, 2011-06-14) and CBS. Doesn't mean they are using them. In fact there is evidence they also own and use other designs. Belgium, being where they are made, they are probably gifts similar to how the North Carolina State Police get a few free BMW's for highway work because of the factory being there. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 6:01:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Well, I just got one and am IWB carrying it right now....so it will do the job if i have to use it.
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Posted: 9/8/2014 7:53:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would make a great rabbit gun. It is a fantastic rabbit gun. For self defense I'd recommend something more traditional. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 2:36:06 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I just got one and am IWB carrying it right now....so it will do the job if i have to use it. Interesting statement "I bought it so it will automatically work wonders"  Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 5:04:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting statement "I bought it so it will automatically work wonders"
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well, I just got one and am IWB carrying it right now....so it will do the job if i have to use it. Interesting statement "I bought it so it will automatically work wonders"
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I dont think I said that at all. But, It is going to be 1000x better than a sharp stick. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:34:47 AM EDT
[#16]
lot a hate - en on the 5.7x28
it must be a real POS cant be found for sale from any stocking distributor? ammo not that easy to get at a reasonable price . |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 11:00:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is a fantastic rabbit gun. For self defense I'd recommend something more traditional. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It would make a great rabbit gun. It is a fantastic rabbit gun. For self defense I'd recommend something more traditional. There is a place for flat shooting handguns for varmint control. I found the FiveSeven to be too bulky for the application. Now an 85 grain bullet traveling at 1700 fps from a Tokarev suits me far better in a narrower, easier to carry package. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 11:09:00 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.7 rounds are certainly capable of breaking bone. One of my pork tests shows SS197SR was fully capable of breaking a pork shoulder bone, whereas in another test, .45 Ranger-T (230gr +P) stopped during penetration laying to rest on the shoulder bone. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 11:50:09 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? It's hard to find that vid mixed in with all of the .22WMR kills on Bambi |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 4:54:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's hard to find that vid mixed in with all of the .22WMR kills on Bambi Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? It's hard to find that vid mixed in with all of the .22WMR kills on Bambi You seem emotionally invested in your hatred for 5.7.......what's your deal? 
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Posted: 9/9/2014 5:02:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You seem emotionally invested in your hatred for 5.7.......what's your deal? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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n style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[/span] [span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[/span]
[span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[/span]
Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? It's hard to find that vid mixed in with all of the .22WMR kills on Bambi You seem emotionally invested in your hatred for 5.7.......what's your deal? No I was really looking for the video. Any more personal attacks you want to get out before you get the thread locked? Or you could offer some technical discussion..... |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 5:59:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Matt, I was thinking the same thing too. You have headed the charge to discredit it as a self defense round this whole time. That's pretty obvious.
I don't have an opinion either way. But I do have a tenancy to lean towards the "good enough" camp and not get all wrapped around the axle about specifics as to how great this round does in gel and all this. And I agree with what the other guy said, I'm sure it's a whole lot better than a sharp stick in the eye. Plus, I don't think it's wise to overlook anything Combat Diver says. He knows a thing or two about the status of the effectiveness of weapons. I for one am all of a sudden sort of interested in it. Especially if it is particularly easy to shoot like some have alluded to. For me, my wife, my kids. Etc. We are a bit hampered on the physical side of things with various health issues and it's always nice to have options. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 6:07:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Matt, I was thinking the same thing too. You have headed the charge to discredit it as a self defense round this whole time. That's pretty obvious. I don't have an opinion either way. But I do have a tenancy to lean towards the "good enough" camp and not get all wrapped around the axle about specifics as to how great this round does in gel and all this. And I agree with what the other guy said, I'm sure it's a whole lot better than a sharp stick in the eye. Plus, I don't think it's wise to overlook anything Combat Diver says. He knows a thing or two about the status of the effectiveness of weapons. I for one am all of a sudden sort of interested in it. Especially if it is particularly easy to shoot like some have alluded to. For me, my wife, my kids. Etc. We are a bit hampered on the physical side of things with various health issues and it's always nice to have options. Just because I have a lot to say about, or you don't like what I have to say, it doesn't mean I have an agenda guys. I wish the DocGKR tests were still up over on TOS. I'm glad the FiveSeveN works for you. But it seems like we are finding limited uses for it now rather than crossing over what other cartridges do already. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:04:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I dont think I said that at all. But, It is going to be 1000x better than a sharp stick. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, I just got one and am IWB carrying it right now....so it will do the job if i have to use it. Interesting statement "I bought it so it will automatically work wonders" I dont think I said that at all. But, It is going to be 1000x better than a sharp stick. "It will do the job" is what you said. I bought a v6 camaro so it will win races if anyone ever challenges me. See how that statement works? I would actually like a ps90 and wouldn't mind a $400 pistol in 5.7. Especially since the specter II is 5.7 kosher Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 6:29:44 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"It will do the job" is what you said. I bought a v6 camaro so it will win races if anyone ever challenges me. See how that statement works? I would actually like a ps90 and wouldn't mind a $400 pistol in 5.7. Especially since the specter II is 5.7 kosher Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, I just got one and am IWB carrying it right now....so it will do the job if i have to use it. Interesting statement "I bought it so it will automatically work wonders" I dont think I said that at all. But, It is going to be 1000x better than a sharp stick. "It will do the job" is what you said. I bought a v6 camaro so it will win races if anyone ever challenges me. See how that statement works? I would actually like a ps90 and wouldn't mind a $400 pistol in 5.7. Especially since the specter II is 5.7 kosher Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile And you said "I bought it so it will automatically work wonders" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU MAC just did this test yesterday...and I am convinced, using the right ammo, I shouldnt have any problems having to put some(one/body/thing) down with it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 7:39:22 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a place for flat shooting handguns for varmint control. I found the FiveSeven to be too bulky for the application. Now an 85 grain bullet traveling at 1700 fps from a Tokarev suits me far better in a narrower, easier to carry package. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It would make a great rabbit gun. It is a fantastic rabbit gun. For self defense I'd recommend something more traditional. There is a place for flat shooting handguns for varmint control. I found the FiveSeven to be too bulky for the application. Now an 85 grain bullet traveling at 1700 fps from a Tokarev suits me far better in a narrower, easier to carry package. We had an infestation of Jack rabbits a few years back, I lost count at around sixty rabbits in my backyard one winter's day, and they were eating all the shrubbery. I kept my Five Seven in the truck after that and over the next month or so killed dozens of rabbits with it. Never shot a Tokarev, but I can vouch the 5.7 is great for little critters. |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 3:21:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish the DocGKR tests were still up over on TOS. They're readily available on a site that doesn't have the issues TOS does: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 5:41:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're readily available on a site that doesn't have the issues TOS does: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wish the DocGKR tests were still up over on TOS. They're readily available on a site that doesn't have the issues TOS does: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm What kind of issues does TOS have? |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 5:53:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Moderation issues.
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Posted: 9/11/2014 7:51:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What kind of issues does TOS have? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1504862_Hackathorn_AAR__M4carbine_censorshipr__Paul_Hotaling__and_some_awesome_gun_forum_drama.html The issues are shown in that thread. It will also nicely explain to you exactly why Doc's ballistics information is no longer on TOS. Short version: Because one of the top staffers of TOS is a loon who decided to declare war on Doc, and the owner of the site backed his play. |
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Posted: 9/11/2014 9:19:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1504862_Hackathorn_AAR__M4carbine_censorshipr__Paul_Hotaling__and_some_awesome_gun_forum_drama.html The issues are shown in that thread. It will also nicely explain to you exactly why Doc's ballistics information is no longer on TOS. Short version: Because one of the top staffers of TOS is a loon who decided to declare war on Doc, and the owner of the site backed his play. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What kind of issues does TOS have? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1504862_Hackathorn_AAR__M4carbine_censorshipr__Paul_Hotaling__and_some_awesome_gun_forum_drama.html The issues are shown in that thread. It will also nicely explain to you exactly why Doc's ballistics information is no longer on TOS. Short version: Because one of the top staffers of TOS is a loon who decided to declare war on Doc, and the owner of the site backed his play. Wow. Thanks. Thats gay. I thought the technical info over there was good. That must be more big boy rules. Pistol-forum is always very interesting when they get locked onto an active topic. The Beretta 92 and Browning Hi Power threads are SUPER informative. |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 1:18:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fish in a bowl, or fish shooting back, doesn't matter. The point is that any handgun round is not super lethal, some are big and slow, this one is tiny and fast. If the guy wants it for a SD round, aside from the parts and ammo availability things already pointed out, I don't think he's doing any better or any worse. Yes it does matter. In a gunfight you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can at close quarters, normally without the use of sights and getting sub-optimal midsection placement. You need a powerful round with a big heavy bullet that will break bones and penetrate deep. This caliber falls short in every way. I don't believe it to be it to be the bee's knees of pistol cartridges, but it seems either people somehow think it's either a death ray, or barely able to make someone bleed ;) Didn't someone kill a deer while ago with one shot of SS197 and posted on you tube? yes someone did. That was a PS90 at 70m. Double lung, found under skin on opposite side of deer. Someone used the FSN with SS197 against a hog. I'm not sure where the original thread is, but there's one on INGO forum: |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 1:37:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They're readily available on a site that doesn't have the issues TOS does: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I wish the DocGKR tests were still up over on TOS. They're readily available on a site that doesn't have the issues TOS does: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 9:20:16 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do believe Doc only has ever tested SS190. Not that I'd ever use SS190, I'm still interested in what the actual gel test show during these tests, but every time I've inquired apparently these subpar performance results are for LEO/MIL only : Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wish the DocGKR tests were still up over on TOS. They're readily available on a site that doesn't have the issues TOS does: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm Well that pretty much settles the debate unless you want to consider the alleged exponentially miraculous performance of the unicorn rounds. |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 3:59:19 PM EDT
[#35]
What is TOS?
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Posted: 9/12/2014 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#36]
there will never be a fair assessment of the 5.7 on arfcom, whats funny is that if the KAC PDW or H&K 4.6 (?) pdw round were available to civis one of them would be loved more than 10mm by it'sfans. I never understood the dislike of FHN products on this board, it almost as if since FN caters to the us civi market they get shunned.
look at the market since 2000 Is there anything more radical and successful than the 5.7 line up of ps90 and five seven? most have nexer pushed a 5.7 but I shoot my ps90 out to 200 meters often If the pistol had better sights I would get one too the really thick front sight ruins it for me. the round is great |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 8:24:17 PM EDT
[#37]
The KAC PDW is a different animal than the 5.7, so it's not really comparable.
The 4.6 is pretty puny, too...but when used appropriately in a good gun like the MP7 it's effective at the niche it was designed for. The groups using the MP7 with success make use of the high rate of fire and controllable nature of the weapon to shoot bad people in the face many times at close range...and employed like that it works splendidly. It's also a pretty good choice for those who face the realistic possibility of having to unload on a couple of bad guys surrounded by innocent people...like, perhaps, if you're guarding a president who is pressing flesh when a couple of fucksticks with guns emerge from the crowd to try and kill him. As a weapon the MP7 works pretty well and when used intelligently the shortcomings of its puny cartridge are minimized. As a weapon, the P90 isn't as reliable. |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 8:31:46 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: snip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU MAC just did this test yesterday...and I am convinced, using the right ammo, I shouldnt have any problems having to put some(one/body/thing) down with it.  That's what you got from that video? All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22.... |
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Posted: 9/12/2014 9:22:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what you got from that video?
All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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snip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU MAC just did this test yesterday...and I am convinced, using the right ammo, I shouldnt have any problems having to put some(one/body/thing) down with it. That's what you got from that video?
All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22.... It's settled science 
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Posted: 9/12/2014 11:49:59 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 9/13/2014 8:35:53 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what you got from that video? All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22.... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: snip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU MAC just did this test yesterday...and I am convinced, using the right ammo, I shouldnt have any problems having to put some(one/body/thing) down with it. That's what you got from that video? All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22.... I saw the most basic plinking round (SS197SR) go 12"+. I saw one of the fastest available .22wmr rounds fail to penetrate soft armor. I'm not sure he was using IIA as he claims (underside shots show a worn label, with from what I saw wasn't IIA), as I've had AE TMJ penetrate level II. |
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Posted: 9/14/2014 9:29:06 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I saw the most basic plinking round (SS197SR) go 12"+. I saw one of the fastest available .22wmr rounds fail to penetrate soft armor. I'm not sure he was using IIA as he claims (underside shots show a worn label, with from what I saw wasn't IIA), as I've had AE TMJ penetrate level II.
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snip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU MAC just did this test yesterday...and I am convinced, using the right ammo, I shouldnt have any problems having to put some(one/body/thing) down with it. That's what you got from that video?
All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22....
I see a fairly uncontrolled test environment with little in the ways of measurement. As usual, 5.7x28mm nuts cherry pick favorable results and run with it after sticking the cherries snugly into their ears. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 6:21:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see a fairly uncontrolled test environment with little in the ways of measurement. As usual, 5.7x28mm nuts cherry pick favorable results and run with it after sticking the cherries snugly into their ears. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmhmtJvLZQU MAC just did this test yesterday...and I am convinced, using the right ammo, I shouldnt have any problems having to put some(one/body/thing) down with it. That's what you got from that video? All I saw was the 5.7 performing like a .22.... I see a fairly uncontrolled test environment with little in the ways of measurement. As usual, 5.7x28mm nuts cherry pick favorable results and run with it after sticking the cherries snugly into their ears. I'm pretty sure most ballistic tests don't happen in white lab coats, in clean rooms :) I see MAC using a substance that produces consistent results comparable to Ordinance Gel. STB did a video compared CBG and OG and both produced very similar results between the two: The video shows that .22wmr and 5.7 being able to easily penetrate 12"+ needed by the FBI standards and then some. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 7:19:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The KAC PDW is a different animal than the 5.7, so it's not really comparable. The 4.6 is pretty puny, too...but when used appropriately in a good gun like the MP7 it's effective at the niche it was designed for. The groups using the MP7 with success make use of the high rate of fire and controllable nature of the weapon to shoot bad people in the face many times at close range...and employed like that it works splendidly. It's also a pretty good choice for those who face the realistic possibility of having to unload on a couple of bad guys surrounded by innocent people...like, perhaps, if you're guarding a president who is pressing flesh when a couple of fucksticks with guns emerge from the crowd to try and kill him. As a weapon the MP7 works pretty well and when used intelligently the shortcomings of its puny cartridge are minimized. As a weapon, the P90 isn't as reliable. I have no experience with the MP7, though your description of its use sounds reasonable. The only problem I see is that also applies to the P90. I have no experience with the P90 either, but pretty good experience with 2 PS-90s. They both proved to be reliable. Not a big sample, obviously, but then I have never heard any one describe the PS-90 or P90 as less reliable. (With the exception of when they were using obviously overloaded cartridges). I doubt that lengthening the barrel, and using a semi auto FCG, (the only 2 changes from the P90), would make it more reliable. Reloads in the PS-90 type magazine may be less than reliable, as the coating wears off of the cases, but with factory loads they run great. For all of those bashing the 5.7 cartridge, tell me of a pistol, (this thread's original topic), which would be better, while matching its recoil characteristics. (That is where I think the pistol shines. When my hand is not acting up, I do prefer some thing more conventional). |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 10:37:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have no experience with the MP7, though your description of its use sounds reasonable. The only problem I see is that also applies to the P90. I have no experience with the P90 either, but pretty good experience with 2 PS-90s. They both proved to be reliable. Not a big sample, obviously, but then I have never heard any one describe the PS-90 or P90 as less reliable. (With the exception of when they were using obviously overloaded cartridges). I doubt that lengthening the barrel, and using a semi auto FCG, (the only 2 changes from the P90), would make it more reliable. Reloads in the PS-90 type magazine may be less than reliable, as the coating wears off of the cases, but with factory loads they run great. For all of those bashing the 5.7 cartridge, tell me of a pistol, (this thread's original topic), which would be better, while matching its recoil characteristics. (That is where I think the pistol shines. When my hand is not acting up, I do prefer some thing more conventional). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The KAC PDW is a different animal than the 5.7, so it's not really comparable. The 4.6 is pretty puny, too...but when used appropriately in a good gun like the MP7 it's effective at the niche it was designed for. The groups using the MP7 with success make use of the high rate of fire and controllable nature of the weapon to shoot bad people in the face many times at close range...and employed like that it works splendidly. It's also a pretty good choice for those who face the realistic possibility of having to unload on a couple of bad guys surrounded by innocent people...like, perhaps, if you're guarding a president who is pressing flesh when a couple of fucksticks with guns emerge from the crowd to try and kill him. As a weapon the MP7 works pretty well and when used intelligently the shortcomings of its puny cartridge are minimized. As a weapon, the P90 isn't as reliable. I have no experience with the MP7, though your description of its use sounds reasonable. The only problem I see is that also applies to the P90. I have no experience with the P90 either, but pretty good experience with 2 PS-90s. They both proved to be reliable. Not a big sample, obviously, but then I have never heard any one describe the PS-90 or P90 as less reliable. (With the exception of when they were using obviously overloaded cartridges). I doubt that lengthening the barrel, and using a semi auto FCG, (the only 2 changes from the P90), would make it more reliable. Reloads in the PS-90 type magazine may be less than reliable, as the coating wears off of the cases, but with factory loads they run great. For all of those bashing the 5.7 cartridge, tell me of a pistol, (this thread's original topic), which would be better, while matching its recoil characteristics. (That is where I think the pistol shines. When my hand is not acting up, I do prefer some thing more conventional). I think most rational people agree that it might be a good choice for people who are extremely recoil adverse. Most people aren't though and handle 147g HSTs just fine Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 11:08:16 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They both proved to be reliable. Not a big sample, obviously, but then I have never heard any one describe the PS-90 or P90 as less reliable. Probably because they weren't using them in high volume. The magazines, particularly, don't handle lots of loading and unloading terribly well. The USSS, for example, has had lots of problems with the P90's they bought and support from FN hasn't been stellar. The MP7 is working better for them...and there's a reason why the JSOC units who are using the MP7 are using those weapons rather than the P90...and it's not because they didn't look at the P90. 
The average joe who owns a semi-auto that he doesn't shoot a lot isn't as likely to see problems as agencies who issue a number of FA weapons that they see tens of thousands of rounds a year through. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 4:47:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably because they weren't using them in high volume. The magazines, particularly, don't handle lots of loading and unloading terribly well. The USSS, for example, has had lots of problems with the P90's they bought and support from FN hasn't been stellar. The MP7 is working better for them...and there's a reason why the JSOC units who are using the MP7 are using those weapons rather than the P90...and it's not because they didn't look at the P90. The average joe who owns a semi-auto that he doesn't shoot a lot isn't as likely to see problems as agencies who issue a number of FA weapons that they see tens of thousands of rounds a year through. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They both proved to be reliable. Not a big sample, obviously, but then I have never heard any one describe the PS-90 or P90 as less reliable. Probably because they weren't using them in high volume. The magazines, particularly, don't handle lots of loading and unloading terribly well. The USSS, for example, has had lots of problems with the P90's they bought and support from FN hasn't been stellar. The MP7 is working better for them...and there's a reason why the JSOC units who are using the MP7 are using those weapons rather than the P90...and it's not because they didn't look at the P90. The average joe who owns a semi-auto that he doesn't shoot a lot isn't as likely to see problems as agencies who issue a number of FA weapons that they see tens of thousands of rounds a year through. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 6:06:00 PM EDT
[#48]
I don't spend a lot of time unloading magazines, it is true. Well, I do unload them, but I do so by firing.
It wouldn't be the first time a middle aged gun owner gets better life and reliability out of a particular gun than those who shoot them without paying for them. I still think the 5.7 pistol is the best choice for when my hand acts up. Nothing else I know comes even close. Well, maybe the RIA offering, but that cartridge is similar to the 5.7. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 6:11:15 PM EDT
[#49]
I carry one and am happy with it.
Ammo is cheap here which is a plus too. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 6:50:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is TOS? "The Other Site" - usually used to denote a site that starts with "m4", that also has "carbine" and ".net" sprinkled in it somewhere. |
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