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Posted: 7/9/2014 8:14:35 AM EDT
[#1]
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Yep. Simple, reliable, accurate, and domestic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Going back to the future with 1911? My money is on the S&W M&P 45 with safety Yep. Simple, reliable, accurate, and domestic. One of the advantages of the M&P is that it offers several mag and frame safety options, as well as the triggerless takedown. It had been designed from the ground up to compete directly against the dominant striker guns, as well as provide options to meet requirements that Glock cannot touch. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 12:26:42 PM EDT
[#2]
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I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 12:41:19 PM EDT
[#3]
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Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 1:32:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Like they said in GD, get JAG to write up a brief saying how JHP is more humane than an FMJ and shove the Hague convention up there ass.
That said, I think an M&P with a safety would be a contender. RMR and threaded barrel for HSLD folks. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 4:05:45 PM EDT
[#5]
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Where are you getting this information? 
The FNX 45 has issues man. What tests has it "passed"? Capacity is not going to decide anything. If it meets or exceeds capacity specs, it's in the fight. FN's small arms have not been the success you claim. FN's "purpose built" description of these arms is not really correct either. They can say that, but the FNP-45 program was an entirely unsolicited program. If we don't change caliber, I don't see us changing off of the M9. I swear, the only threads that eclipse the balogny sauc stories about the original tests leading up to the M9, are the ones leading up to it's possible replacement. Last month someone fairly credible on here was arguing that it was a rote fact that looks were the deciding factor. This right after the usual stories of back room fixing and hookers being tossed through windows. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They're searching for Unicorns/wanting a pistol to do a rifle's job. The Beretta is a dinosaur, but a caliber change won't do anything other than raise taxes. Sorry, but using ball ammo, there's only so much damage you're going to do. Not a terminal ballistics expert by any means, but how much of the advantage of a larger caliber (say .45 ACP) is lost when the bullet is an FMJ and will have zero expansion? Doesn't seem worth the lessened mag capacity and decreased follow-up shots. Shot placement is critical, and caliber doesn't change that. This. They're also going to have a hell of a time getting away from any NATO round. I'd venture to say the M&P9 is in their future... I don't see them changing handguns if they don't change the caliber. No battles are own or lost on the handguns that already limited numbers of our service members carry. We have no obligation to use NATO ammo. Especially so being the richest nation in NATO by far, and Western Europe no longer a three hour tank surge from soviet invasion. We could literally use whatever caliber we wanted as long as we wish to deal with multi-nation logistics problems. And running out of handgun ammo is probably a much lower priority than running out of clean underware or shaving kits for out troops in a total war. Again, handguns are of limited value and the majority of soldiers do not carry them at all. This isn't call of duty where if you magdump as a guy jumping around like a bunny, you hit triangle to grab your pistol because it is quicker than reloading. Video games and hollywood have ruined our perception of handguns in the services. The doorkickers and special units are already using whatever they would like already. A .45 is going to suck as much as a 9mm. I think we will just stick with berettas for another 50 years. If a decision is made, the company will have to have the industrial capacity, or the capital to secure the industrial capacity to meet the production schedule. That alone will eliminate many of the aspiring manufacturers. You are looking at S&W and Sig. Colt has the infrastructure, but would probably need more people and machines. FNH-USA would likely have to severely cut back on rifle and carbine production to meet demand. I doubt their suppliers could keep up as well. So they are out. HK is far too small of a company to handle such a contract. I still vote S&W because they recently bought out their frame supplier and they have the industrial capacity, workforce, and capital to handle the contract without sinking LE/Civilian business. This replacement idea is not new, this has been planned for some time but the DoD cuts happened to come at the same time the M9s are reaching the end of their service life. But if what they say is true, that it is almost as cheap to adopt a new gun, then we know the only possible choices to replace it. THE FACTS: According to the criteria set forth by the military with the MHS program (industry day is the end of July), these are the only guns that meet all the set parameters and are inexpensive enough: M&P .40 FNS .40 (possibly Long Slide) FNX .40 FNX .45 These guns meet the exact standards set forth by the MHS including: reliability (closed slide design), external thumb safety (not on slide), larger caliber, service life of at least 25,000 rounds (some reports say 35,000), accessory rail, fully ambidextrous (important since very few guns have this feature), interchangeable back straps (noted as needed specifically for women), "commercial off-the-shelf" pistol (tested and cheap), reasonable capacity (probably no less than 12 or 13 rounds per magazine), and other federal agency tests get factored in to save money on testing (which favor the M&P). MY OPINION: They want a caliber that performs better than the 9mm at 50 yards in a gel test. Really, I think they might actually keep the 9mm and use either the M&P, FNS, or FNX when they realize the benefit of larger calibers is marginal. I would prefer they make the big switch and go to 5.7mm or something similar (too expensive right now), I think pistols will eventually change over to those types of calibers, but maybe not. FN has built their guns around getting military contracts and has been very successful (SAW, M4, SCAR-H, vehicle mounted weapons, etc); they actually built the FNX for these military contracts, and if the military wants another external hammer handgun, this could get the contract. The FNX 45 with its 15 rounds of .45 is amazing because it matches the M9's 15 round capacity, but it may be too big for small handed people. I think FN should get the contract but they won't. Here's why... The problem for FN is that the M&P has been accepted almost as a replacement for Glock's around the country for ambidextrous design, incredible ergonomics, and "safety" features. It has been more thoroughly tested than FN pistols due to its popularity among LE and civilian markets. Most importantly, Smith & Wesson can also make the guns cheaper due to a mature market, increased production capacity, and a high stock price to use to raise capital. Therefore, they will have the lowest bid. I also think they will ended sticking with the M&P in 9mm because the .45 only holds 10 rounds and the .40 has too much recoil, and none of it is worth changing from NATO standard. Where are you getting this information?
The FNX 45 has issues man. What tests has it "passed"? Capacity is not going to decide anything. If it meets or exceeds capacity specs, it's in the fight. FN's small arms have not been the success you claim. FN's "purpose built" description of these arms is not really correct either. They can say that, but the FNP-45 program was an entirely unsolicited program. If we don't change caliber, I don't see us changing off of the M9. I swear, the only threads that eclipse the balogny sauc stories about the original tests leading up to the M9, are the ones leading up to it's possible replacement. Last month someone fairly credible on here was arguing that it was a rote fact that looks were the deciding factor. This right after the usual stories of back room fixing and hookers being tossed through windows. The information as listed by the officer quoted in the article has talked about what they are looking for in other interviews with him. The FNX hasn't passed the tests which is another issue, but the success I mentioned wasn't regarding their handguns, it was the other weapon systems they sell to the military. But that good relationship will give them a chance on industry day at the end of July. The reasons it is an option is because it meets the requiremnents where Glock doesn't, for example. Also, they are going to use other tests like the FBI or the ATF tests for selecting their service pistols, so they don't have to do as much testing. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 8:44:42 PM EDT
[#6]
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The information as listed by the officer quoted in the article has talked about what they are looking for in other interviews with him. The FNX hasn't passed the tests which is another issue, but the success I mentioned wasn't regarding their handguns, it was the other weapon systems they sell to the military. But that good relationship will give them a chance on industry day at the end of July. The reasons it is an option is because it meets the requiremnents where Glock doesn't, for example. Also, they are going to use other tests like the FBI or the ATF tests for selecting their service pistols, so they don't have to do as much testing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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pan style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[/span] [span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[/span]
They're searching for Unicorns/wanting a pistol to do a rifle's job. The Beretta is a dinosaur, but a caliber change won't do anything other than raise taxes. Sorry, but using ball ammo, there's only so much damage you're going to do. Not a terminal ballistics expert by any means, but how much of the advantage of a larger caliber (say .45 ACP) is lost when the bullet is an FMJ and will have zero expansion? Doesn't seem worth the lessened mag capacity and decreased follow-up shots. [span style='text-decoration: underline;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']Shot placement is critical, and caliber doesn't change that[/span][/span]. This. They're also going to have a hell of a time getting away from any NATO round. I'd venture to say the M&P9 is in their future... I don't see them changing handguns if they don't change the caliber. No battles are own or lost on the handguns that already limited numbers of our service members carry. We have no obligation to use NATO ammo. Especially so being the richest nation in NATO by far, and Western Europe no longer a three hour tank surge from soviet invasion. We could literally use whatever caliber we wanted as long as we wish to deal with multi-nation logistics problems. And running out of handgun ammo is probably a much lower priority than running out of clean underware or shaving kits for out troops in a total war. Again, handguns are of limited value and the majority of soldiers do not carry them at all. This isn't call of duty where if you magdump as a guy jumping around like a bunny, you hit triangle to grab your pistol because it is quicker than reloading. Video games and hollywood have ruined our perception of handguns in the services. The doorkickers and special units are already using whatever they would like already. A .45 is going to suck as much as a 9mm. I think we will just stick with berettas for another 50 years. If a decision is made, the company will have to have the industrial capacity, or the capital to secure the industrial capacity to meet the production schedule. That alone will eliminate many of the aspiring manufacturers. You are looking at S&W and Sig. Colt has the infrastructure, but would probably need more people and machines. FNH-USA would likely have to severely cut back on rifle and carbine production to meet demand. I doubt their suppliers could keep up as well. So they are out. HK is far too small of a company to handle such a contract. I still vote S&W because they recently bought out their frame supplier and they have the industrial capacity, workforce, and capital to handle the contract without sinking LE/Civilian business. [span style='font-style: italic;']This replacement idea is not new, this has been planned for some time but the DoD cuts happened to come at the same time the M9s are reaching the end of their service life. But if what they say is true, that it is almost as cheap to adopt a new gun, then we know the only possible choices to replace it.[/span] [span style='font-weight: bold;']THE FACTS[/span]: According to the criteria set forth by the military with the MHS program (industry day is the end of July), these are the [span style='text-decoration: underline;']only[/span] guns that meet all the set parameters and are inexpensive enough: M&P .40 FNS .40 (possibly Long Slide) FNX .40 FNX .45 These guns meet the exact standards set forth by the MHS including: reliability (closed slide design), external thumb safety (not on slide), larger caliber, service life of at least 25,000 rounds (some reports say 35,000), accessory rail, fully ambidextrous (important since very few guns have this feature), interchangeable back straps (noted as needed specifically for women), "commercial off-the-shelf" pistol (tested and cheap), reasonable capacity (probably no less than 12 or 13 rounds per magazine), and other federal agency tests get factored in to save money on testing (which favor the M&P). [span style='font-weight: bold;']MY OPINION[/span]: They want a caliber that performs better than the 9mm at 50 yards in a gel test. Really, I think they might actually keep the 9mm and use either the M&P, FNS, or FNX when they realize the benefit of larger calibers is marginal. I would prefer they make the big switch and go to 5.7mm or something similar (too expensive right now), I think pistols will eventually change over to those types of calibers, but maybe not. FN has built their guns around getting military contracts and has been very successful (SAW, M4, SCAR-H, vehicle mounted weapons, etc); they actually built the FNX for these military contracts, and if the military wants another external hammer handgun, this could get the contract. The FNX 45 with its 15 rounds of .45 is amazing because it matches the M9's 15 round capacity, but it may be too big for small handed people. I think FN should get the contract but they won't. Here's why... The problem for FN is that the M&P has been accepted almost as a replacement for Glock's around the country for ambidextrous design, incredible ergonomics, and "safety" features. It has been more thoroughly tested than FN pistols due to its popularity among LE and civilian markets. [span style='text-decoration: underline;']Most importantly, Smith & Wesson can also make the guns cheaper due to a mature market, increased production capacity, and a high stock price to use to raise capital. Therefore, they will have the lowest bid.[/span] I also think they will ended sticking with the M&P in 9mm because the .45 only holds 10 rounds and the .40 has too much recoil, and none of it is worth changing from NATO standard. Where are you getting this information?
The FNX 45 has issues man. What tests has it "passed"? Capacity is not going to decide anything. If it meets or exceeds capacity specs, it's in the fight. FN's small arms have not been the success you claim. FN's "purpose built" description of these arms is not really correct either. They can say that, but the FNP-45 program was an entirely unsolicited program. If we don't change caliber, I don't see us changing off of the M9. I swear, the only threads that eclipse the balogny sauc stories about the original tests leading up to the M9, are the ones leading up to it's possible replacement. Last month someone fairly credible on here was arguing that it was a rote fact that looks were the deciding factor. This right after the usual stories of back room fixing and hookers being tossed through windows. The information as listed by the officer quoted in the article has talked about what they are looking for in other interviews with him. The FNX hasn't passed the tests which is another issue, but the success I mentioned wasn't regarding their handguns, it was the other weapon systems they sell to the military. But that good relationship will give them a chance on industry day at the end of July. The reasons it is an option is because it meets the requiremnents where Glock doesn't, for example. Also, they are going to use other tests like the FBI or the ATF tests for selecting their service pistols, so they don't have to do as much testing. Glock can slap a safety on their guns if it means a DoD contract. They have a few half assed safeties already in a few mil contracts to other nations. If Glock won an m9 replacement contract,not would be Gaston's biggest victory. He could die right there happy. Sounds like that procurement officer has a nice job waiting for him at FNH-USA FNX mag retention is never going to hold up to joes. Neither will the back straps. It's a good pistol, bit it's like it had two engineering teams. One of the teams hit their half out if the park, and some summer interns did the rest. Time will tell for sure. But I think we have at least another 15-20 years of bitching about the M9 ahead of us. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 9:34:35 PM EDT
[#7]
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Time will tell for sure. But I think we have at least another 15-20 years of bitching about the M9 ahead of us. You are probably right, tho keep your eye on the SIG P320. Uncle won't go whole hog general issue Glock until Glock redesigns the pistol so you don't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 10:32:38 PM EDT
[#8]
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The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. Why don't we recycle the .30 carbine while we are at it. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 12:09:19 AM EDT
[#9]
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Why don't we recycle the .30 carbine while we are at it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. Why don't we recycle the .30 carbine while we are at it. OAL is too long for pistol grips. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 1:09:51 AM EDT
[#10]
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You are probably right, tho keep your eye on the SIG P320. Uncle won't go whole hog general issue Glock until Glock redesigns the pistol so you don't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Time will tell for sure. But I think we have at least another 15-20 years of bitching about the M9 ahead of us. You are probably right, tho keep your eye on the SIG P320. Uncle won't go whole hog general issue Glock until Glock redesigns the pistol so you don't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. Agreed on Glock, especially when they can just get something similar like an M&P that already meets the requirements. I'm not saying Glock wouldn't be a good choice, I just don't think the military brass will go for it. Question on the Sig P320, does it have ambidextrous safety, mag release, and slide release? |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 8:17:29 AM EDT
[#11]
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Question on the Sig P320, does it have ambidextrous safety, mag release, and slide release? Stock pistol comes with no safety but SIG states one can be fitted as the design was set up for it. I THINK ambi. Yes ambi slide lock. No ambi mag release tho as a lefty I cannot stand right-side/"left-handed" mag releases. That is one item I myself prefer left {pun intended...} alone. The mag release can be switched from side to side by the way. Also, steel magazines with steel mag interfaces unlike the smearable plastic notch on Glock mags. Frankly, if they issued the P250 they'd not even need any safety tho Uncle seem wedded to one. The DAO is superb and of course is a longer {"safer" for those who believe in such stuff} trigger pull as DAO's are. It is really an excellent trigger pull. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 9:11:05 AM EDT
[#12]
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Why don't we recycle the .30 carbine while we are at it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. Why don't we recycle the .30 carbine while we are at it. Mil should just go .40. We don't need NATO supply chain IMO. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 9:13:12 AM EDT
[#13]
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The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. The .357sig might be a good option based on your description. I just bought my first .357sig and I have to say, it's impressive. It's my new favorite handgun to shoot. More punch, more penetration, better accuracy, more capacity (than .45), better reliability (than the .40), and interchangeability. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 10:53:10 AM EDT
[#14]
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The .357sig might be a good option based on your description. I just bought my first .357sig and I have to say, it's impressive. It's my new favorite handgun to shoot. More punch, more penetration, better accuracy, more capacity (than .45), better reliability (than the .40), and interchangeability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. The .357sig might be a good option based on your description. I just bought my first .357sig and I have to say, it's impressive. It's my new favorite handgun to shoot. More punch, more penetration, better accuracy, more capacity (than .45), better reliability (than the .40), and interchangeability. I owned a .357 SIG {P226} for years and also think it is an excellent cartridge ballistically tho most of that excellent performance is wasted on FMJ's where it is far less noticeable {except in penetration of hard targets}. The real problem a I see the .357 SIG is that I do not believe the cartridge could pass handling proof. The neck is too short and setback due to rough handling is not impossible. In fact, it can occur quite easily, relatively speaking. And such setback can lead to riveting on the shoulder and pressure spikes and damage.. It is a great sport cartridge and seems to do ok in police use but I don't think much of it as a military round. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 11:46:45 AM EDT
[#15]
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I owned a .357 SIG {P226} for years and also think it is an excellent cartridge ballistically tho most of that excellent performance is wasted on FMJ's where it is far less noticeable {except in penetration of hard targets}. The real problem a I see the .357 SIG is that I do not believe the cartridge could pass handling proof. The neck is too short and setback due to rough handling is not impossible. In fact, it can occur quite easily, relatively speaking. And such setback can lead to riveting on the shoulder and pressure spikes and damage.. It is a great sport cartridge and seems to do ok in police use but I don't think much of it as a military round. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. The .357sig might be a good option based on your description. I just bought my first .357sig and I have to say, it's impressive. It's my new favorite handgun to shoot. More punch, more penetration, better accuracy, more capacity (than .45), better reliability (than the .40), and interchangeability. I owned a .357 SIG {P226} for years and also think it is an excellent cartridge ballistically tho most of that excellent performance is wasted on FMJ's where it is far less noticeable {except in penetration of hard targets}. The real problem a I see the .357 SIG is that I do not believe the cartridge could pass handling proof. The neck is too short and setback due to rough handling is not impossible. In fact, it can occur quite easily, relatively speaking. And such setback can lead to riveting on the shoulder and pressure spikes and damage.. It is a great sport cartridge and seems to do ok in police use but I don't think much of it as a military round. Yeah, I can see that. Most of my guns are safe queens and I'm not .mil so I don't always grasp the amount of wear and abuse these weapons are subjected to. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 2:49:42 PM EDT
[#16]
For some additional info on some of these. Remember, JHP's are not legal for military purposes and while arguments have raged as to whether this or that slight increase in bullet diameter means anything, recoil and penetration can be easily measured.
In my own exerience in shooting many, many butcher animals and other critters in the 70-250 pound class, the answer regarding the bullet diameter question is No. There is no noticeable difference in "stopping power" between the main competitors .45 ACP and 9x19 when both are using FMJ's. 
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Posted: 7/11/2014 5:58:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The .357sig might be a good option based on your description. I just bought my first .357sig and I have to say, it's impressive. It's my new favorite handgun to shoot. More punch, more penetration, better accuracy, more capacity (than .45), better reliability (than the .40), and interchangeability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To me it's all just pissing in the wind. But it will be interesting to see what happens next. I hate to say this, but finding a new handgun for the troops ISN'T going to be that high a priority. I mean hell, they can't agree on a new rifle yet, how the hell are they going to pick a new handgun? Battles and wars are not won by handguns but they'll waste our money trying to convince us of that. Geeez, and I was hoping for lots of hoopla, speculation, pictures, internet arguments and all kinds of fanfare with a picked coveted pistol that in the end is dismissed. Like that HK rifle. XM8. The Army needs a modernized pistol and caliber, but one that will defeat body armor, not one that has the penetration performance of a cherry tomato. The Russians have modernized the 9x19 round quite well, but I'd like to see Uncle start working up a good .277 or .280 pistol caliber. The 5.7 case would be a good place to start, necked up. The .357sig might be a good option based on your description. I just bought my first .357sig and I have to say, it's impressive. It's my new favorite handgun to shoot. More punch, more penetration, better accuracy, more capacity (than .45), better reliability (than the .40), and interchangeability. The .357sig is absolutely no more reliable than any good .40 or .45 caliber platform pistol... Sure, there are exceptions and all manufacturers' sometimes put out a few lemons but generally speaking... |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 6:05:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:The .357sig is absolutely no more reliable than any good .40 or .45 caliber platform pistol... Sure, there are exceptions and all manufacturers' sometimes put out a few lemons but generally speaking... In theory the bottlenecked pistol rounds {.357 SIG, 7.65 Luger, 7.62x25} have advantages over the straight case cartridges. In practice, the individual pistols and loads will have to speak for themselves. Now, if we could just get a modern pistol chambered in 7.62x25!!! |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 9:37:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: The MHS will be an open-caliber competition that will evaluate larger rounds such as .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The 357SIG is LARGER than the 9mm? Interdasting MHS. Tell me more.jpg
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Posted: 7/12/2014 12:28:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 357SIG is LARGER than the 9mm?
Interdasting MHS. Tell me more.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The MHS will be an open-caliber competition that will evaluate larger rounds such as .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The 357SIG is LARGER than the 9mm?
Interdasting MHS. Tell me more.jpg He might be referring to the fact that the case / shell is bigger. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 11:31:25 AM EDT
[#21]
I was not going to wade in to this subject, because it is just everyone's opinion/bias about the pistol that they own personally for the most part.
But WTH, I can express my opinion as well. 1. The 1911 will never be a service wide issue sidearm ever again, get over it. 2. The .45 ACP, see above. 3. A small diameter projectile (smaller than any of the "4" calibers) driven at high velocity has merit for it's ability to defeat body armor, at the expense of ease of shootability. Hence the .357 Sig has some merit for consideration. Yet, this formula has been tried before, vis the 7.63 Mauser, and 7.62 Tokarev, and the 5.56x28 FN cartridges. None of which were kept for very long or used for universal issue with the exception of the Tok round. There must be a reason, yes? Why yes indeed there is. Military institutions the world over place very little importance on the handgun. It is issued mostly as a "feel good" weapon for gun crews, airmen, vehicle crews, and for officers to project the power of their rank with. Very little time is spent on handgun training, so don't expect even a slightly more difficult to master cartridge to gain any favor. (FN cartridge excepted, but it is weak in real world results in any case). 4. The Beretta 92 is conceptually a very old design, essentially a slightly updated copy of the Walther P38. Like any older pistol design it is overly complicated, requires extensive depot level maintenance assets to be utilized far too frequently, and has a really poor slide mounted safety, and is really too damn big for it's caliber. The military does need a modern design, inexpensive to field and maintain side arm. And because it will be issued generally to troops that are poorly trained in handguns, it needs to have a at the very least a positive external safety lever, and cocking/loaded chamber indicator, though the Army will want a hammer. Just how I see it. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 4:08:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are probably right, tho keep your eye on the SIG P320. Uncle won't go whole hog general issue Glock until Glock redesigns the pistol so you don't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Time will tell for sure. But I think we have at least another 15-20 years of bitching about the M9 ahead of us. You are probably right, tho keep your eye on the SIG P320. Uncle won't go whole hog general issue Glock until Glock redesigns the pistol so you don't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. And that is the biggest thing glock has going against it. The lack of a manual safety can be fixed, glock has one they will install on big enough orders. And glock mags are durable enough so the lack of metal mags would not be a disadvantage IMO. Having to clear, point in a safe direction and cycle the trigger to take down would be a problem with big Army. Yes lots of cops do it but as sad as it is they receive more handgun training than the average GI that would be issued a handgun. The HSLD guys that receive lots of training can already carry whatever they want and some carry glocks. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 4:18:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that is the biggest thing glock has going against it. The lack of a manual safety can be fixed, glock has one they will install on big enough orders. And glock mags are durable enough so the lack of metal mags would not be a disadvantage IMO. Having to clear, point in a safe direction and cycle the trigger to take down would be a problem with big Army. Yes lots of cops do it but as sad as it is they receive more handgun training than the average GI that would be issued a handgun. The HSLD guys that receive lots of training can already carry whatever they want and some carry glocks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Time will tell for sure. But I think we have at least another 15-20 years of bitching about the M9 ahead of us. You are probably right, tho keep your eye on the SIG P320. Uncle won't go whole hog general issue Glock until Glock redesigns the pistol so you don't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. And that is the biggest thing glock has going against it. The lack of a manual safety can be fixed, glock has one they will install on big enough orders. And glock mags are durable enough so the lack of metal mags would not be a disadvantage IMO. Having to clear, point in a safe direction and cycle the trigger to take down would be a problem with big Army. Yes lots of cops do it but as sad as it is they receive more handgun training than the average GI that would be issued a handgun. The HSLD guys that receive lots of training can already carry whatever they want and some carry glocks. The article that I read on FoxNews also said twice that they were looking for something more "accurate."
I'm not a fan of the Beretta 92, but it can certainly shoot more accurately than I can. More accurate...
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Posted: 7/13/2014 4:30:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Maybe what they mean is easier to shoot accurately for inexperienced handgun shooters, which describes most current members of the US Army.
Walther P99AS perhaps? Nah... it's too good for the Army. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 5:31:49 PM EDT
[#25]
With limited handgun training, no one is going to be able to shoot any handgun accurately. The best from that you can hope for is they can be issued, loaded, and carried without any NDs. I was never AD, but in the NG we switched to being mech engineers right before I got out. I was assigned an M9 as I was licensed to drive the ' new ' M113 APCs we had just got. My last qual was on the M9, the total of training was about half an hour and most of that was a safety briefing. Lots were a NoGo at that station first time through, they had to fire a couple times.
It was interesting, the only time I have ever fired a pistol from the prone postition 
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Posted: 7/13/2014 7:23:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With limited handgun training, no one is going to be able to shoot any handgun accurately. The best from that you can hope for is they can be issued, loaded, and carried without any NDs. I was never AD, but in the NG we switched to being mech engineers right before I got out. I was assigned an M9 as I was licensed to drive the ' new ' M113 APCs we had just got. My last qual was on the M9, the total of training was about half an hour and most of that was a safety briefing. Lots were a NoGo at that station first time through, they had to fire a couple times. It was interesting, the only time I have ever fired a pistol from the prone postition That is really pathetic. We shoot the Army qual course on my range here from time to time and it is a dumb easy COF. Uncle needs to design a new cartridge of about 7mm cal tossing a series of bullets of 80-95 grains 2000-1800 fps. It would be easy to shoot and penetration would be excellent. Bullets could be designed with flat points and AP cores. It really is not too hard to conceive. The FN 5.7 case would be a good parent from which to start. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 10:39:35 PM EDT
[#27]
I would rather see the effort and resources go to more handgun training than some sort of caliber/equipement change to make up for the lack of training. In the end it will pay more dividends.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 10:41:51 PM EDT
[#28]
And as for people failing to qualify the first time, lots failed to qualify with the rifle as well. The just kept sending them through the rotation until they either qualified or they pencil whipped it.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 11:25:21 PM EDT
[#29]
Army pistol qual course is a sick joke. To Bolo it, you have to suck donkey balls.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:10:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is really pathetic. We shoot the Army qual course on my range here from time to time and it is a dumb easy COF. Uncle needs to design a new cartridge of about 7mm cal tossing a series of bullets of 80-95 grains 2000-1800 fps. It would be easy to shoot and penetration would be excellent. Bullets could be designed with flat points and AP cores. It really is not too hard to conceive. The FN 5.7 case would be a good parent from which to start. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
With limited handgun training, no one is going to be able to shoot any handgun accurately. The best from that you can hope for is they can be issued, loaded, and carried without any NDs. I was never AD, but in the NG we switched to being mech engineers right before I got out. I was assigned an M9 as I was licensed to drive the ' new ' M113 APCs we had just got. My last qual was on the M9, the total of training was about half an hour and most of that was a safety briefing. Lots were a NoGo at that station first time through, they had to fire a couple times. It was interesting, the only time I have ever fired a pistol from the prone postition That is really pathetic. We shoot the Army qual course on my range here from time to time and it is a dumb easy COF. Uncle needs to design a new cartridge of about 7mm cal tossing a series of bullets of 80-95 grains 2000-1800 fps. It would be easy to shoot and penetration would be excellent. Bullets could be designed with flat points and AP cores. It really is not too hard to conceive. The FN 5.7 case would be a good parent from which to start. No. Bigger, not smaller |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:21:16 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Bigger, not smaller Quote HistoryQuoted:
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With limited handgun training, no one is going to be able to shoot any handgun accurately. The best from that you can hope for is they can be issued, loaded, and carried without any NDs. I was never AD, but in the NG we switched to being mech engineers right before I got out. I was assigned an M9 as I was licensed to drive the ' new ' M113 APCs we had just got. My last qual was on the M9, the total of training was about half an hour and most of that was a safety briefing. Lots were a NoGo at that station first time through, they had to fire a couple times. It was interesting, the only time I have ever fired a pistol from the prone postition That is really pathetic. We shoot the Army qual course on my range here from time to time and it is a dumb easy COF. Uncle needs to design a new cartridge of about 7mm cal tossing a series of bullets of 80-95 grains 2000-1800 fps. It would be easy to shoot and penetration would be excellent. Bullets could be designed with flat points and AP cores. It really is not too hard to conceive. The FN 5.7 case would be a good parent from which to start. No. Bigger, not smaller Recoil, ammunition weight {logistics and bulk}, defeat of personal armor and helmets and use in a PDW all point to smaller at higher velocity. As has been noted by many on this thread, .45 is done and poor shooting is the bugbear of general issue sidearms. In addition, the lethality can be improved with FMJ bullets. My experience noted above has proven to me the poor performance of .45 ACP for example, and tracing many wound channels in stock demonstrates this clearly. The truth is, tho all service pistol rounds are lethal, the slow mover cannot provide penetration performance demanded by modern conditions {read, armor} and that has to be takne into consideration. In addition, is capacity of the pistol itself. A 20-30 shot pistol has a lot going for it when multiple rounds must be fired potentially at one threat. Since NONE of the service pistol calibers provide reliable 1-shot stopping performance, improve accuracy provided by reduced recoil is a must. The round we need doesn't exist yet, but it would not be impossible to gin up. |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:50:16 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Recoil, ammunition weight {logistics and bulk}, defeat of personal armor and helmets and use in a PDW all point to smaller at higher velocity. As has been noted by many on this thread, .45 is done and poor shooting is the bugbear of general issue sidearms. In addition, the lethality can be improved with FMJ bullets. My experience noted above has proven to me the poor performance of .45 ACP for example, and tracing many wound channels in stock demonstrates this clearly. The truth is, tho all service pistol rounds are lethal, the slow mover cannot provide penetration performance demanded by modern conditions {read, armor} and that has to be takne into consideration. In addition, is capacity of the pistol itself. A 20-30 shot pistol has a lot going for it when multiple rounds must be fired potentially at one threat. Since NONE of the service pistol calibers provide reliable 1-shot stopping performance, improve accuracy provided by reduced recoil is a must. The round we need doesn't exist yet, but it would not be impossible to gin up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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With limited handgun training, no one is going to be able to shoot any handgun accurately. The best from that you can hope for is they can be issued, loaded, and carried without any NDs. I was never AD, but in the NG we switched to being mech engineers right before I got out. I was assigned an M9 as I was licensed to drive the ' new ' M113 APCs we had just got. My last qual was on the M9, the total of training was about half an hour and most of that was a safety briefing. Lots were a NoGo at that station first time through, they had to fire a couple times. It was interesting, the only time I have ever fired a pistol from the prone postition That is really pathetic. We shoot the Army qual course on my range here from time to time and it is a dumb easy COF. Uncle needs to design a new cartridge of about 7mm cal tossing a series of bullets of 80-95 grains 2000-1800 fps. It would be easy to shoot and penetration would be excellent. Bullets could be designed with flat points and AP cores. It really is not too hard to conceive. The FN 5.7 case would be a good parent from which to start. No. Bigger, not smaller Recoil, ammunition weight {logistics and bulk}, defeat of personal armor and helmets and use in a PDW all point to smaller at higher velocity. As has been noted by many on this thread, .45 is done and poor shooting is the bugbear of general issue sidearms. In addition, the lethality can be improved with FMJ bullets. My experience noted above has proven to me the poor performance of .45 ACP for example, and tracing many wound channels in stock demonstrates this clearly. The truth is, tho all service pistol rounds are lethal, the slow mover cannot provide penetration performance demanded by modern conditions {read, armor} and that has to be takne into consideration. In addition, is capacity of the pistol itself. A 20-30 shot pistol has a lot going for it when multiple rounds must be fired potentially at one threat. Since NONE of the service pistol calibers provide reliable 1-shot stopping performance, improve accuracy provided by reduced recoil is a must. The round we need doesn't exist yet, but it would not be impossible to gin up. I smell mission creep Next thing you know, every joe is lugging an MP-7 |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 8:52:53 AM EDT
[#33]
OK, it's time for ramblings from an old Marine.
Once upon a time I was a marksmanship/small arms instructor who for awhile too long was stuck teaching the M9 course. I was brutally honest with the Marines and Corpsman under my instruction that the M9 was strictly a defensive weapon and if you find yourself in a fire fight you better have something in a rifle caliber. A pistol has its place but physics does not lie, a M882 ball round has around a 60-63% one shot stop rate if you put it in the central nervous/cardio system. The old 45ACP ball does not fair any better. The M9 design is an accurate weapon but it seems to dislike sand and fine dirt in its internals and magazines worse than I dislike it in my skivvies. I'm sure the Army procurement system will screw it up somehow, maybe some better training would go further. I've had the opportunity to witness some of their courses and qual on them as well (expert on rifle and pistol of course) it was in my opinion lacking fundamentals of marksmanship. I'll be spending some time at Ft. Campbell later this week so I'll be sure to ask the opinion of some of the soldiers what they think. I'm expecting colorful comments. Old Marine 
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Posted: 7/14/2014 10:54:57 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, it's time for ramblings from an old Marine. Once upon a time I was a marksmanship/small arms instructor who for awhile too long was stuck teaching the M9 course. I was brutally honest with the Marines and Corpsman under my instruction that the M9 was strictly a defensive weapon and if you find yourself in a fire fight you better have something in a rifle caliber. A pistol has its place but physics does not lie, a M882 ball round has around a 60-63% one shot stop rate if you put it in the central nervous/cardio system. The old 45ACP ball does not fair any better. The M9 design is an accurate weapon but it seems to dislike sand and fine dirt in its internals and magazines worse than I dislike it in my skivvies. I'm sure the Army procurement system will screw it up somehow, maybe some better training would go further. I've had the opportunity to witness some of their courses and qual on them as well (expert on rifle and pistol of course) it was in my opinion lacking fundamentals of marksmanship. I'll be spending some time at Ft. Campbell later this week so I'll be sure to ask the opinion of some of the soldiers what they think. I'm expecting colorful comments. Old Marine
Just a note to clarify this. A pistol round placed in CNS has basically a 100% one-shot stop rate. The statistic you cite actually pertains to all shots/impact areas included. I can stop a 1200 pound steer EVERY TIME with a shot to CNS, it's just that getting it there doesn't happen EVERY TIME. Your assessment otherwise I agree with. One of the reasons I like the training philosophy of CFS is that it agrees with my personal observations on butcher stock. Multiple shots must be fired with service pistols. Training to fire "doubletaps" for example is decidedly bad training as such a mentality should not be ingrained, that is, there should be no expectation of response to bullet impact. to expert such a response if to ignore reality. This doesn't matter whether the round in question is 9x19, .40 or .45 or whatever. |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:05:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quit listening to NATO's experts on ammo, purchase good quality Premium JHP rounds no matter what the caliber and move on !
<------- |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:11:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I smell mission creep Next thing you know, every joe is lugging an MP-7 Hardly. There are a bunch of pistol models floating around in service that could and will no doubt be replaced with one basic model, and with the shift in concept with modular synthetic framed pistols coming on-line, a compact and fullsize pistol with identical controls and trigger type. The Beretta will be with us for a long time no doubt but the next gun could be a singificant improvement over it in capacity, performance and shootability. Currently, in 9x19 something like the SIG P320 has a lot going for it. A future model built around a yet-to-be designed cartridge could fill the bill nicely. The modular concept has not been fully exploited yet. If you've ever picked up a FN FiveseveN you'll be stunned at how light a highcap pistol can be made using modern materials. That round does leave something to be desired, but with a good bullet design there is no reason a 20-shot {or somewhat more} pistol could not be fielded. |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:22:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quit listening to NATO's experts on ammo, purchase good quality Premium JHP rounds no matter what the caliber and move on ! <------- Won't happen for a variety of reasons. Remember also, military rounds must function under all conditions and typically in submachine gun/PDW's as well, and likely will have to in the future. JHP's are not the panacea they may seem to be at first blush. Also, for military purposes penetration must be achieved and w/ increasing use of body armor, JHP's offer no advantage whatsoever. Having said all that, body armor advances are being made that will soon make defeat a near impossibility using a pistol. The history of warfare has always been a duel between armor and projectiles. Nothing has changed much in essence. |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:27:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hardly. There are a bunch of pistol models floating around in service that could and will no doubt be replaced with one basic model, and with the shift in concept with modular synthetic framed pistols coming on-line, a compact and fullsize pistol with identical controls and trigger type. The Beretta will be with us for a long time no doubt but the next gun could be a singificant improvement over it in capacity, performance and shootability. Currently, in 9x19 something like the SIG P320 has a lot going for it. A future model built around a yet-to-be designed cartridge could fill the bill nicely. The modular concept has not been fully exploited yet. If you've ever picked up a FN FiveseveN you'll be stunned at how light a highcap pistol can be made using modern materials. That round does leave something to be desired, but with a good bullet design there is no reason a 20-shot {or somewhat more} pistol could not be fielded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I smell mission creep Next thing you know, every joe is lugging an MP-7 Hardly. There are a bunch of pistol models floating around in service that could and will no doubt be replaced with one basic model, and with the shift in concept with modular synthetic framed pistols coming on-line, a compact and fullsize pistol with identical controls and trigger type. The Beretta will be with us for a long time no doubt but the next gun could be a singificant improvement over it in capacity, performance and shootability. Currently, in 9x19 something like the SIG P320 has a lot going for it. A future model built around a yet-to-be designed cartridge could fill the bill nicely. The modular concept has not been fully exploited yet. If you've ever picked up a FN FiveseveN you'll be stunned at how light a highcap pistol can be made using modern materials. That round does leave something to be desired, but with a good bullet design there is no reason a 20-shot {or somewhat more} pistol could not be fielded. The five seven doesn't answer anything |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 12:33:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The five seven doesn't answer anything Sure it does. Maybe better put, it asks a lot of questions that need to be answered. It is no be-all/end-all, but as an engineering concept it's features are the direction of the future. The 5.7 basic case has alot going for it as well, not in .22 cal, but necked up somewhat would offer a number of advantages. Add a modular system and a better cartridge and you would have the answer. |
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Posted: 7/14/2014 2:39:12 PM EDT
[#40]
5.7x28 truther alert
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Posted: 7/14/2014 3:05:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.7x28 truther alert LOL. Don't worry, 5.7x28 isn't going to do much tho I'd love a Mini-Mauser chambered for it and weighing about 5.5 lbs. |
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Posted: 7/18/2014 2:24:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Problem is and will always be a training/marksmenship issue and not an equipment issue. Always easier to blame the equipment and not the operator. The Army got exactally what it asked for and wanted for back in 1911 and later in 1985. Reason everyone wants a pistol in a combat zone is as old as history but with fewer actually engaging daily in fighting we have people wanting them because a M4 carbine is too heavy and cumbersome to carry at the DFAC!
CD |
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Posted: 7/18/2014 3:14:55 PM EDT
[#43]
I have been informed that the next sidearm of the US military will be the M&P .45 or maybe even the M&P .40. There is some internal bickering over the .45 and .40, but .45 is still holding the edge. It's a done deal M&P will win the contract and the Army will get their modular big bore with a manual safety (not on the slide) inexpensive modern handgun. You heard it here first, After all it's not called MILITARY & police for nothing...
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Posted: 7/18/2014 3:30:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been informed that the next sidearm of the US military will be the M&P .45 or maybe even the M&P .40. There is some internal bickering over the .45 and .40, but .45 is still holding the edge. It's a done deal M&P will win the contract and the Army will get their modular big bore with a manual safety (not on the slide) inexpensive modern handgun. You heard it here first, After all it's not called MILITARY & police for nothing... Eh what? |
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Posted: 7/18/2014 8:23:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been informed that the next sidearm of the US military will be the M&P .45 or maybe even the M&P .40. There is some internal bickering over the .45 and .40, but .45 is still holding the edge. It's a done deal M&P will win the contract and the Army will get their modular big bore with a manual safety (not on the slide) inexpensive modern handgun. You heard it here first, After all it's not called MILITARY & police for nothing...
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Posted: 7/18/2014 8:58:34 PM EDT
[#46]
If the military adopts a .45 in this Day and Age I know the End is Near.
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Posted: 7/18/2014 11:45:19 PM EDT
[#47]
This would not surprise me.
The Army has not made a good issue weapon decision since they adopted the M1 Garand. Everything since has been shrouded in politics, graft, and a myopic/confused vision of what was needed. |
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Posted: 7/19/2014 1:13:52 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been informed that the next sidearm of the US military will be the M&P .45 or maybe even the M&P .40. There is some internal bickering over the .45 and .40, but .45 is still holding the edge. It's a done deal M&P will win the contract and the Army will get their modular big bore with a manual safety (not on the slide) inexpensive modern handgun. You heard it here first, After all it's not called MILITARY & police for nothing... maybe they will start issuing M&P15's also |
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Posted: 7/19/2014 1:49:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been informed that the next sidearm of the US military will be the M&P .45 or maybe even the M&P .40. There is some internal bickering over the .45 and .40, but .45 is still holding the edge. It's a done deal M&P will win the contract and the Army will get their modular big bore with a manual safety (not on the slide) inexpensive modern handgun. You heard it here first, After all it's not called MILITARY & police for nothing... LOL. I guess I need to start a weapon line called DELTA-DEVGRU so that those guys will use it. |
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Posted: 7/19/2014 5:23:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This would not surprise me. The Army has not made a good issue weapon decision since they adopted the M1 Garand. Everything since has been shrouded in politics, graft, and a myopic/confused vision of what was needed. Even the Mighty M1 was shourded in politics. Otherwise it would have been chambered in .276 Pedersen. |
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