Ruger GP100 in 44 S&W Special--Initial thoughts and photos

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ruger GP100 in 44 S&W Special--Initial thoughts and photos (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 12/28/2016 5:35:04 PM EDT

The GP has been a standard in the Ruger catalog for a good 20-25 years. Nobody pays it much attention nowadays even though Ruger has probably sold somewhere between a million and a billion of the things. They've always been primarily a 38/357 revolver and have been available in several barrel lengths.

Ruger tried to shake things up over the last few years with GP's like the Match Champion and a nifty 3" gun inspired by Wiley Clapp. Well, continuing with interesting new variants, Ruger is now making a 5shot 44 Special.

I don't consider myself to be a revolver guy and don't have much use for the 357 Magnum. That doesn't mean it isn't an effective cartridge. I just prefer semi-autos for several reasons. But I am a walking contradiction and do have an affinity for big bore revolvers. I love old wheelguns like the Colt and S&W 1917's and guns like the S&W Thunder Ranch. I hate to admit it but I also like guns like the Taurus 431 (NOT the new stuff!) and the older Charter Arms Bulldog.

This new Ruger variant was announced shortly before Christmas and I placed an order right after seeing the review on Jeff Quinn's website.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-GP100-44.htm

Well, the gun showed up with my dealer today and I eagerly took delivery. Initial impressions are pretty good. I like the fiber optic front sight and the trigger is heavy but workable. There is a strong catch right when the cylinder stop pops into the notches but that can probably be tuned up. Single action is pretty crisp but with a bit of overtravel. Timing seems good and there doesn’t appear to be any excess play or shake in the cylinder.

The Hogue grips felt good but completely looked out of place on the gun. Too long in relation to the barrel! I took these off and replaced with a set of factory Ruger compact GP100 stocks. Much better looks and these should be a better choice for an "all around" carry gun.

I haven't shot the gun yet but do plan on hitting the range tomorrow. More to follow.

In the meantime, please feel free to ask any questions, etc.

Thanks for reading.

Galco SUM192B holster

The GP as it came out of the box

Posted: 12/28/2016 5:46:25 PM EDT

[#1]

Looks nice!

I agree about the grips, I would have made that swap also.

How about the weight?

I have an S&W 696, which I love, but I almost hate to shoot any more, even though I bought mine quite used without a box. I have turned down what I consider to be ridiculous offers for it.

It is nicely accurate, even past 25 yards, and the short sight radius suits my 60 year old eyes better than the longer barrel guns I favored in my youth.

The concept of a 3" .44 SPL revolver has a great deal of merit in my book.

Posted: 12/28/2016 5:55:45 PM EDT

[#2]

I have several Ruger and Smith big bore handguns. I love that three inch and the grips are a 100% improvement in appearance. I can't wait to see how she shoots.

Posted: 12/28/2016 6:15:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Those grips are 100 times better, I wonder why they went with the Hogue. It sure looks like a great pistol, I wonder how strong it is? Think buffalo bore heavy loads would be ok?

Posted: 12/28/2016 6:26:44 PM EDT

[#4]

Seems like a nice package, would prefer they fluted the cylinder though.

Posted: 12/28/2016 6:53:15 PM EDT

[#5]

I truly like the whole short barrel big bore thing.
Most folks think they will give carry a try from time to time but these guns are bricks and carry gets old for most after about 45 minutes . They are still a hoot at the range.

I have owned my share of rugers but have become a S&W snob mostly because of the triggers. Not everyone agrees with me but plenty do. For many , me included , shooting a double action revolver is all about the trigger and S&W is the leader of the pack. Yeah you can do a spring kit on the Ruger and get it almost as good as the factory S&W but if you do the springs on the S&W you have something better yet

If you pay the extra for the similar S&W it comes in 44mag. I get that most folks shoot mostly 44special level loads in the smaller guns but 44 mag actually is cheaper
and brass is easier to find. Most of my loads are a step above the standard 44spl loads but still down quite a bit from 44mag

I agree the fancy grips look sharp but Houges generally work very very well.

Either way you go , revolvers are a hoot

Posted: 12/28/2016 7:03:23 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
I truly like the whole short barrel big bore thing.
Most folks think they will give carry a try from time to time but these guns are bricks and carry gets old for most after about 45 minutes . They are still a hoot at the range.

I have owned my share of rugers but have become a S&W snob mostly because of the triggers. Not everyone agrees with me but plenty do. For many , me included , shooting a double action revolver is all about the trigger and S&W is the leader of the pack. Yeah you can do a spring kit on the Ruger and get it almost as good as the factory S&W but if you do the springs on the S&W you have something better yet

If you pay the extra for the similar S&W it comes in 44mag. I get that most folks shoot mostly 44special level loads in the smaller guns but 44 mag actually is cheaper
and brass is easier to find. Most of my loads are a step above the standard 44spl loads but still down quite a bit from 44mag

I agree the fancy grips look sharp but Houges generally work very very well.

Either way you go , revolvers are a hoot

View Quote

I am a bit surprised that Ruger didn't make this new revolver in 44 Magnum. I assume that anything an L frame will take won't hurt a GP. I guess Ruger has different longevity standards than S&W? Who knows?

What really would have tipped the big bore market upside down would have been a medium frame LCR. Can you imagine a polymer lightweight 5shot snub in 44SPL? Now that would really be something!

What the market also badly needs is a SAAMI +P standard for the 44. The factory load are pretty soft for the most part. We really need a new pressure rating that'll bring the 44SPL into the 21st Century.

Posted: 12/28/2016 10:15:33 PM EDT

[#7]

The forcing cone could be a bit thicker. This might be the Achilles heal as far as super hot loads are concerned.

I doubt I'll shoot it enough to cause any problems.

More tomorrow. Goodnight.

Posted: 12/29/2016 8:18:43 PM EDT

[#8]

Sorry, everyone.

No real news. Bottom line is I had a rather frustrating day on the range. I tried three different brands/types of ammo with poor accuracy results.

My guess is that there's a constriction of some type where the barrel meets the frame. This is, in effect, swaging the bullet; making it undersized for the bore.

I will see if I can't get some Hornady or maybe some Black Hills ammo and try again. If these new loads don't shoot the gun will need a trip back to the factory.

Posted: 12/29/2016 8:35:24 PM EDT

[#9]

Thank you for the update. Sorry to hear it hasn't worked out. I have heard great things about Ruger service so I trust they will make it right.

Posted: 12/29/2016 8:42:14 PM EDT

[#10]

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Thank you for the update. Sorry to hear it hasn't worked out. I have heard great things about Ruger service so I trust they will make it right.

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I'm completely confident that Ruger can and will either fix this gun or replace it with a different one. I have dealt with Ruger before for warranty work and they have always taken care of me after the sale. Unfortunately the same can't be said for some other companies.

Posted: 12/29/2016 8:56:55 PM EDT

[#11]

I need a GP revolver

Posted: 12/31/2016 3:11:47 PM EDT

[#12]

Just loaded up a handful of rounds using Blue Dot and a 220gr cast bullet from GT Bullets.

220 cast

They look like a nice bullet. Ten grabbed at random weigh 217.4 - 219.6. They measure .4295" in diameter.

Will they shoot? That's the question.

Posted: 12/31/2016 5:12:53 PM EDT

[#13]

Well, my handload shoots okay.

25 yards with 220gr cast. 11.0gr Blue Dot.

Posted: 1/1/2017 2:28:53 AM EDT

[#14]

Where did you order those grips?? Ruger??

Doc

Posted: 1/1/2017 3:04:51 AM EDT

[#15]

The thin forcing cone is what caused me to sell my 696. Now I have a model 69 and Smith has resolved that issue with a larger diameter barrel shank.

Lipseys has a 2.75 inch model 69 listed, I think I'll hold out for one of those. Should be similar to a 2.5 inch model 66.

Posted: 1/1/2017 5:18:38 AM EDT

[#16]

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The thin forcing cone is what caused me to sell my 696.

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Did you have any issues with wear or damage from higher pressure loads or was the sale a preemptive decision?

I do wonder about the thin cone wall. I know Ruger tests their pre-production guns pretty vigorously and likely would have changed the size had they seen an issue.

Posted: 1/1/2017 5:20:21 AM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
Where did you order those grips?? Ruger??

Doc

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Ruger Compact Grips

Posted: 1/2/2017 12:23:38 AM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

Did you have any issues with wear or damage from higher pressure loads or was the sale a preemptive decision?

I do wonder about the thin cone wall. I know Ruger tests their pre-production guns pretty vigorously and likely would have changed the size had they seen an issue.

View Quote

No issues, in fact I never shot the 696 all that much. Just worried me every time I looked at it. I was the same way with the Model 329 and that sheet metal recoil shield. Once I shot it enough to see serious erosion on the recoil shield, the end was near for me and the 329.

Posted: 1/2/2017 9:23:53 AM EDT

[#19]

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No issues, in fact I never shot the 696 all that much. Just worried me every time I looked at it. I was the same way with the Model 329 and that sheet metal recoil shield. Once I shot it enough to see serious erosion on the recoil shield, the end was near for me and the 329.

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Well, we'll see how the Ruger holds up. Once I get the accuracy issues resolved I will hopefully shoot it regularly.

I do plan on hotrodding my handloads a bit but am more inclined to use Skeeter's load as opposed to Elmer's.

Posted: 1/2/2017 2:47:46 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:

Well, we'll see how the Ruger holds up. Once I get the accuracy issues resolved I will hopefully shoot it regularly.

I do plan on hotrodding my handloads a bit but am more inclined to use Skeeter's load as opposed to Elmer's.

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I do the same with my model 69. I have three categories of loads

Magnum - rarely shoot these, maybe if I were to shoot another elk, but I doubt I'd use the 69

Midrange - cast Keith bullets at around 1000 fps, I shoot these about 80% of the time, including hog hunting

Plinker - Keith bullet at about 850 fps. Also load these with the Hornady swaged 240 LHP for a self defense load.

Posted: 1/2/2017 6:26:07 PM EDT

[#21]

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Plinker - Keith bullet at about 850 fps. Also load these with the Hornady swaged 240 LHP for a self defense load.

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Ever shot these into anything that causes expansion? If so how did they do?

Posted: 1/2/2017 6:51:30 PM EDT

[#22]

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Ever shot these into anything that causes expansion? If so how did they do?

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I shot a coon with one, didn't recover the bullet though. Shot it righ dead center thru the body, it was a bang flop DRT.

My idea is that it is kind of a big bore recreation of the old 38 Special FBI load, a 158 LHP +P. I settled on 850 fps for good accuracy with no leading. I need to try shooting it into water jugs or something where I can retrieve the bullet.

Posted: 1/2/2017 7:36:09 PM EDT

[#23]

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My idea is that it is kind of a big bore recreation of the old 38 Special FBI load, a 158 LHP +P...

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I like your idea. Pleasant to shoot but effective in a defense role.

Here is something I'd like to mess with at some point:

Rimrock 185gr cast HP

Posted: 1/2/2017 8:58:24 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:

I like your idea. Pleasant to shoot but effective in a defense role.

Here is something I'd like to mess with at some point:

Rimrock 185gr cast HP

View Quote

Also a load that has similar ballistics to the 45 ACP.

I've heard good things about Rimrock bullets, but never tried any.

I still have another unopened box (400 or 500) of the swaged Hornady bullet, that's probably a lifetime supply no more than I shoot them.

Posted: 1/3/2017 8:06:43 AM EDT

[#25]

I just ordered a batch of the Rimrock Bullets. Too bad he only sells in quantity of 500. Honestly I think 250 of them would have been plenty.

I want to work up a fairly decent load (1000ish FPS] and try these into 10% Clear Ballistics gel. I want to do the same with a 220cast cast bullet and a 215gr cast HP with gas check.

Posted: 1/3/2017 11:43:51 AM EDT

[#26]

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Well, my handload shoots okay.

25 yards with 220gr cast. 11.0gr Blue Dot.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161231/10198f841b5ca470c6db7153db31f788.jpg

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What do you think is the critical difference between your hand loads and the factory ammunition?

ETA: Changing the grips did a world of good as far as the looks department. That is a nice looking revolver. I personally like the lines of the GP100 frame with an unfluted cylinder.

Posted: 1/3/2017 11:48:11 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

What do you think is the critical difference between your hand loads and the factory ammunition?

ETA: Changing the grips did a world of good as far as the looks department. That is a nice looking revolver. I personally like the lines of the GP100 frame with an unfluted cylinder.

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The difference seems to be jacketed vs cast. The gun, so far at least, shows a strong preference for lead.

Posted: 1/3/2017 1:52:49 PM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:
I just ordered a batch of the Rimrock Bullets. Too bad he only sells in quantity of 500. Honestly I think 250 of them would have been plenty.

I want to work up a fairly decent load (1000ish FPS] and try these into 10% Clear Ballistics gel. I want to do the same with a 220cast cast bullet and a 215gr cast HP with gas check.

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I use HS6 or Universal for mid range loads. Let us know how it works out.

Posted: 1/3/2017 3:05:54 PM EDT

[#29]

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I use HS6 or Universal for mid range loads. Let us know how it works out.

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I have a pretty good supply of Ramshot Silhouette. Not much published data (aka dang near none!) for this powder in the Special. But I'm sure I can work something out.

Posted: 1/3/2017 6:57:53 PM EDT

[#30]

Ruger contacted. Inspection and repair or replacement initiated.

I haven't even sent the gun back yet but I already miss it...

I'll update ASAP if anyone is interested.

Posted: 1/4/2017 1:01:11 AM EDT

[#31]

I'd be very curious to hear results from Ruger. One of these is n my short list of wants for 2017. I have seen custom conversions of GP revolvers to 5 shot in > .357, but something like that was always going to out of ,y price range. But a factory Ruger is very doable, so long as it shoots.

Posted: 1/4/2017 8:07:57 AM EDT

[#32]

Here's something somewhat related. This is a 220gr cast hollow point loaded with Blue Dot at a little above max for a 429215 cast bullet as published in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

This bullet had a chrono'ed velocity of just over 1,050 fps and penetrated right to 20in in 10% gel from Clear Ballistics. It was fired through four layers of clothing and expanded to .540" diameter. Current weight is 214.4 grains.

Cast bullets always have some weight variance and the few of these I've weighed start out at about 218gr. I didn't notice any chunks of lead in the gel but I seem to have lost a few grains somewhere.

This load is a bit above max but there does not seem to be any signs of pressure. And it is under what Brian Pearce shows for a heavier bullet in his 2005 article. Recoil is stout but not uncomfortable and is actually pretty fun. It has an authoritative thump without being punishing.

I'm pretty surprised at the muzzle velocity and how well the bullet worked especially after being fired through clothing. Once I get the gun back I'll have to play with this load some more and see what we can do.

Note the bits of fabric embedded in the cavity.

Posted: 1/5/2017 6:55:16 PM EDT

[#33]

.54 cal and 20" penetration....that will leave an impressive wound channel.

Doc

Posted: 1/6/2017 7:24:03 AM EDT

[#34]

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.54 cal and 20" penetration....that will leave an impressive wound channel.

Doc

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Once the gun's back and I have the accuracy stuff worked out I'll try some more gel shots.

I'll probably make a separate thread with the results.

Posted: 1/9/2017 5:08:14 PM EDT

[#35]

Edited to note that these were fired in an old Taurus 431 and not the new Ruger. But both are 3" barrels so it shouldn't make too much difference.

Here is a bit of gel testing. These were all fired through heavy clothing at a distance of ten feet.

220gr cast hollowpoint loaded a moderate charge of Red Dot. Muzzle velocity of around 800fps. A nice mild load and probably good for target work.

Penetration was 18" expansion was zero.

Next up is the same bullet with a max charge of Unique. Or a little over max depending on the book. This one's running 950fps. Penetration is in the 25ish range from this load. Mild expansion but more of a deformation than actual expansion. Obviously the one that didn't mushroom as much as its counterpart penetrated more.

Last up is a 185gr cast hollowpoint from Rimrock. These are advertised on his website as being what Buffalo Bore uses in some of their 44SPL ammo.

These are loaded with Unique. Again I'm at the top end of the spectrum. Impact velocity was 1050ish on the gel.

These open impressively especially after clothing. I had kind of expected these to clog. Once these open they get pretty unpredictable and veer off track. I had to fire several rounds in order to recover these two. The others veered off and went out the side(s) of the block.

Penetration isn't as good with this bullet. We're talking 10+ inches here. Maybe backing the muzzle velocity off a bit will change that.

Posted: 1/11/2017 5:54:39 PM EDT

[#36]

It appears that I owe Ruger a giant apology.

In preparation for the return of my GP100, I bought another box of the 200 grain jacketed hollow point from Underwood. Today I shot some of this ammo through an old Taurus model 431.

Much to my surprise, this ammo keyholed like crazy out of the Taurus.

So at this point I think Underwood may have gotten some out of spec bullets from Speer or they may be pushing the 200 grain Gold Dot too fast to be properly stabilized by a 1x20 twist. At least with A3 inch barrel.

This afternoon I called Underwood and spoke to Justin. I told him what I was seeing and that I had a couple different guns now that have keyholed with their hot Gold Dot ammo. Justin said he would do some research and call me back.

I guess one way or the other I'll get this figured out.

Posted: 1/12/2017 10:31:13 AM EDT

[#37]

This is a great thread. I'm curious to hear about the resolution, but regardless of the outcome, lots of great information on .44 spl Ruger GP100.

Posted: 1/12/2017 10:49:20 AM EDT

[#38]

Great thread. Threads like this are why I keep coming back to ARFCOM. I am really looking forward to picking one of these up. I will put the "old style" grips on it as well.

WarHawk, I have two S&W 696. Both "no dash". One of them I have shot extensively, carried it for years as my "bear gun" guiding in Montana. It has digested some fairly hot 44 Special loads (I have never tried to turn it into a 44 mag), and literally thousands of 44 Special cast loads. It has held up very well, timing is fine. It is my favorite wheel gun.

Posted: 1/12/2017 11:37:52 AM EDT

[#39]

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I have two S&W 696...digested some fairly hot 44 Special loads...

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Have you ever tried hot Gold Dot ammo in the gun? If you have did you notice any radical innacuracy? I believe the factory Speer stuff cruises along about 900fps from a 4" barrel and most published reloading data doesn't exceed this velocity.

Posted: 1/12/2017 11:41:15 AM EDT

[#40]

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This is a great thread. I'm curious to hear about the resolution, but regardless of the outcome, lots of great information on .44 spl Ruger GP100.

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I wish it was all peaches and cream here. I was initially pretty darned excited about the GP in 44 SPL. I still am actually but it has been a bit frustrating with some of the accuracy results.

I am awaiting a call from one of the techs at Underwood. When I spoke to the fellow yesterday he said he was going to check ammo from my same lot and take some measurements and shoot for group. Curious to see what he might find.

I will update after the call. Thanks for sticking it out with me, guys.

Posted: 1/13/2017 10:37:27 AM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Great thread. Threads like this are why I keep coming back to ARFCOM. I am really looking forward to picking one of these up. I will put the "old style" grips on it as well.

WarHawk, I have two S&W 696. Both "no dash". One of them I have shot extensively, carried it for years as my "bear gun" guiding in Montana. It has digested some fairly hot 44 Special loads (I have never tried to turn it into a 44 mag), and literally thousands of 44 Special cast loads. It has held up very well, timing is fine. It is my favorite wheel gun.

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Glad to hear that your 696 is holding up well, and especially that you like it.

I also had a 396 Mountain Lite, that little thing would pound you about as hard as it hit the target. I was worried about how it would hold up too.

When the model 69 came out I sold the 696, the 396 and a 329 I had. Now Smith has announced a 2.75 inch model 69 and I'll be buying one of those too.

Posted: 1/13/2017 11:59:42 AM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:

Have you ever tried hot Gold Dot ammo in the gun? If you have did you notice any radical innacuracy? I believe the factory Speer stuff cruises along about 900fps from a 4" barrel and most published reloading data doesn't exceed this velocity.

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I don't think I have ever fired a factory produced round out of my 696.

Posted: 1/14/2017 7:49:46 AM EDT

[#43]

So I now have a new GP100 to replace the first model that didn't shoot so good. This one has half the cylinger gap and a better double action trigger. The single action may be just a smidgen heavier but it is still pretty crisp and should be easy enough to work with.

I don't have but a handful of rounds through the new gun but initial results appear to be positive.

Here is five rounds of the CCI Blazer Gold Dot load from 25 yards. This chronographs in the 825fps range from my barrel.

I didn't use this ammo in the old Ruger so I don't have any comparison.

And here is ten rounds of the plated bullet loaded by Precision One. Much better than from the other gun!

I have a few of my loads using the GT 220gr cast HP and also a few rounds loaded with a 180gr XTP that I'll try to shoot over the weekend.

Posted: 1/14/2017 7:51:20 AM EDT

[#44]

While I'm writing about the Gold Dot, here are a few recovered bullets. These were fired into the 10% gel from Clear Ballistics.

The top bullet is into bare gel. Expansion is textbook and the bullet is now almost three quarters of an inch. Penetration was about 13in into the block.

The second bullet was fired through a layer of denim and a thin layer of insulation followed by cotton shirt and t-shirt material. Expansion wasn't as dramatic but not terrible either. And of course the retarded expansion means another couple inches of penetration.

The last bullet is the Gold Dot through four layers of denim per the IWBA protocol. Expansion was zero and the bullet penetrated in excess of 20in.

Posted: 1/14/2017 5:54:06 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
While I'm writing about the Gold Dot, here are a few recovered bullets. These were fired into the 10% gel from Clear Ballistics.

The top bullet is into bare gel. Expansion is textbook and the bullet is now almost three quarters of an inch. Penetration was about 13in into the block.

The second bullet was fired through a layer of denim and a thin layer of insulation followed by cotton shirt and t-shirt material. Expansion wasn't as dramatic but not terrible either. And of course the retarded expansion means another couple inches of penetration.

The last bullet is the Gold Dot through four layers of denim per the IWBA protocol. Expansion was zero and the bullet penetrated in excess of 20in.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170114/b8acb5e7037bf43a4570003b3c6ce80d.jpg

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Eye opening results! I'm surprised at the bottom slug. No expansion after 4 layers of denim is surprising.

Posted: 1/16/2017 8:19:12 AM EDT

[#46]

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Eye opening results! I'm surprised at the bottom slug. No expansion after 4 layers of denim is surprising.

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I haven't found too many bullets that expand well after denim.

What I might do is hit the local thrift stores in search of an old Carhartt jacket and see what that does. It isn't part of the FBI nor IWBA protocols but it might be a realistic barrier material.

Posted: 1/16/2017 4:07:03 PM EDT

[#47]

Here is a 25 yard group with the Blazer Gold Dot. This new gun certainly wants to SHOOT!

Good stuff!

Posted: 1/17/2017 11:53:04 AM EDT

[#48]

Here is my daily update. I shot Underwood's Bulldog load, a handload of Unique with a Hornady 180-grain XTP and another handload with surplus bulk powder and a Rimrock 185gr LHP bullet into the Clear Ballistics gel from 10ft.

The Underwood Gold Dot was fired into bare gel and heavy clothing. Last was through a soft leather jacket purchased for $10 at Goodwill.

Chronograph data shows that the Underwood Bulldog load is cruising along at 975fps which corresponds to their advertised velocity.

Here is a photo looking through the block. Sorry for the cloudiness. The block's getting pretty nasty from repeated used.

12" penetration was bare gel.
12.5" penetration was leather jacket.
13" penetration was heavy clothing.

Here are the three recovered Dots. Laid out in order as above. Bare on top.

Up next is my handload of Unique with a Hornady 180 XTP. Chrono puts these at 975fps right along with what I'm getting with the Underwood.

One bullet was fired through clothing and the other was fired into bare gel. Both bullets penetrated in excess of 16in and were found a few feet downrange.

I don't know which bullet is which but bare gel and clothing look about the same. The XTP'S are in the middle here.

Lastly, pictured far left is my Rimrock LHP load. I backed the powder off a little and now am getting about 965fps with this bullet. I'm hoping the slightly lower velocities will shoot a bit better. Accuracy isn't bad at 1000+ fps but I'm hoping to tighten it up a bit. Also penetration was only about 10in at the higher velocity.

Anyway I fired two of these through clothing. Both penetrated more than 16in with only one of the bullets being recovered.

Then just for reference is the Rimrock after the higher velocity. Expansion is better but penetration is a bit shallow.

So far I'm really liking what I'm seeing with the Underwood Bulldog. I haven't seen the keyhole issues like with their hotter load. This stuff might be a good choice for self-defense ammo in the GP.