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Posted: 6/15/2016 7:06:02 AM EDT
[#1]
9mm > .40/.45
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Posted: 6/15/2016 7:13:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Now we can all argue about the weight of the bullet. And +p vs regular pressure.
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Posted: 6/15/2016 7:24:37 AM EDT
[#3]
The FBI will stick with 9mm until they decide another cartridge is superior. They probably shoot less people than most agencies, but they sure are good at running tests.
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Posted: 6/15/2016 7:24:47 AM EDT
[#4]
I'll bite.
Their figures are all fucked up. The round they prefer (Speer G2 147) has already had to be redesigned because it completely failed to expand in their first shooting. That round is nipping at +P pressures. There are as of now only two rounds that meet the required penetration depths. There is no free lunch. They (FBI) offer two figures for expansion - one, in conjunction with actual testing, is an average of around .49-.55 expansion of the Speer G2 in conjunction with penetration depths of 12-15 inches. Nothing controversial there, not a surprise to anyone who knows a little about. However, their sales pitch includes another interesting anecdote. That is, they state that the G2 expanded to within .02 inches diameter of the .40 and .45 loads they have tested. That is either a lie or negligence. Expansion diameter and penetration are inversely related. Regardless of bullet design, no 9mm SAAMI spec round will ever carry enough energy to expand to .68, .70 diameter and still penetrate 12+ inches. "Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers" 9mm may offer most shooters the best handgun platform to put the highest number of rounds on target, in a specified time period, while achieving penetration depths of 12 inches+. That isn't the same as saying that 9mm is the cartridge that causes the most damage to an adversary, in a specified time period, while achieving penetration depths of 12 inches+. Anyway, I've sat through the briefs of the guys pushing this. They aren't necessarily gun guys, or even highly proficient shooters. 9mm has a ton to offer, but the designation of a "best" anything connotes ignorance to how handguns actually work.. |
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Posted: 6/15/2016 7:41:36 AM EDT
[#5]
9MM FTW
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Posted: 6/15/2016 10:02:23 AM EDT
[#6]
I'm not drinking there Kool-Aide
I'm a handgun hunter, and in my experience 44 and 45 work better than 357 magnum, on big midwestern deer ....and my 357magnum loads are heavier, faster, and deeper penetrating than 9mm I suspect the switch was made so there smaller/female agents can qualify ...and for that, I understand there decision ....kinda |
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Posted: 6/15/2016 10:04:46 AM EDT
[#7]
This from the same guys that went from 9mm to 10mm to .40S&W. I'll stick with Underwood 10mm. The FBI had it right the first time they switched.
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Posted: 6/15/2016 10:07:16 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not drinking there Kool-Aide I'm a handgun hunter, and in my experience 44 and 45 work better than 357 magnum, on big midwestern deer ....and my 357magnum loads are heavier, faster, and deeper penetrating than 9mm I suspect the switch was made so there smaller/female agents can qualify ...and for that, I understand there decision Before I retired my agency issued .40 S&W and they were talking about switching to 9mm because of the female "issue." I imagine they are using the same criteria. |
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Posted: 6/15/2016 12:18:21 PM EDT
[#9]
The only option is to get all 3 calibers.
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Posted: 6/15/2016 12:48:26 PM EDT
[#10]
So their hiring preferences can shoot a firearm and not fail too many times. Always the lowest common denominator.
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Posted: 6/15/2016 9:46:04 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm not really a fan of the f-b-i, but they have come up with measurable, reproducible, and consistent testing. Ballistic gel mimics muscle, so I don't know where the penetration requirements fall into measuring a hollow chest filled with hollow organs performance.
9MM has less recoil, lots of folks from lots of backgrounds are employed, and many have probably never handled a firearm before training. Yes it could help in followups. All said, I like the round they commissioned to build because the light 10MM rounds met the requirements, we know it is .40 S&W. Just an opinion. |
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Posted: 6/15/2016 10:15:41 PM EDT
[#12]
So, bottom line... Am I good to go with my 147gr HSTs?
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Posted: 6/15/2016 10:19:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So their hiring preferences can shoot a firearm and not fail too many times. Always the lowest common denominator. Not totally. Having spent about 15 years carrying a 9mm in one version or another, I find it to be better for general issue overall. Not because of lowest and slowest shooters, but because I can shoot it longer with less fatigue. I've been to courses where we went through 750+ rounds a day. In a handgun, that gets painful to the point that people's hands are shaking at the end of the day. I could see noticible problems with guys running 1911s and 40 cal Glocks at the end of the day. Recoil matters when you are doing a lot of shooting. Wrist injury long term matters. I've seen SWAT guys with tendonitis and other issues running 1911s. Additionally, ammo = opportunities to solve problems. More ammo is more better. Ammo cost matters...real world, budgets are finite. Ammo performance matters...and 9mm performs on par in real world shootings. There is zero meaningful difference between premium 9mm and premium 40/45. Shot placement trumps it so much that it isn't even worth discussing. Lastly, from my experience, 9mm handguns seem to run more reliably. On a mixed range, I see guys with 40 cal Glocks clearing malfunctions regularly. I rarely see 9mm Glocks malfunction. That is just me...but I have seen it over several years among several agencies. YMMV All in all...9mm is a good way to go. |
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Posted: 6/15/2016 11:36:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Regardless of bullet design, no 9mm SAAMI spec round will ever carry enough energy to expand to .68, .70 diameter and still penetrate 12+ inches. Even RA9T expands pretty damn well, and generally out penetrates other 147gr 9mm loads (which is why I chose it). I admit I was less than impressed with the first G2 results I saw... but it appears those issues have been fixed in the latest ammo. Touting it as "better" than .40 or .45 might not be true. No such thing as magic handgun ammo. Truth is, most folks, even "gun guys" are going to shoot a 9mm better and faster than a larger caliber. Only hits count. And as long as it penetrates sufficiently, if they are "hits" then the ammo does not matter much. Nor the caliber. If someone can shoot their .40 or .45 with proficiency, and afford the (slightly) higher ammo costs... more power to them. As for G2 "pushing on +P pressures"... I doubt it (DocGKR's latest info): " All test shots were conducted using a 9 mm Glock 19 with OEM barrel. 9 mm Fed 147 gr HST had an average velocity of 1017 fps 9 mm Speer 147 gr G2 had an average velocity of 987 fps 9 mm Win 147 gr RA9B had an average velocity of 992 fps" |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 10:01:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not really a fan of the f-b-i, but they have come up with measurable, reproducible, and consistent testing. Ballistic gel mimics muscle, so I don't know where the penetration requirements fall into measuring a hollow chest filled with hollow organs performance.9MM has less recoil, lots of folks from lots of backgrounds are employed, and many have probably never handled a firearm before training. Yes it could help in followups. All said, I like the round they commissioned to build because the light 10MM rounds met the requirements, we know it is .40 S&W. Just an opinion. I suppose the.lungs are hollow, thats about it though |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 10:30:39 AM EDT
[#16]
Federal data, heavy clothed gel:
9mm 147 HST: 12.5"/.69 40 S&W 180 HST: 12.5/.80 45 acp 230 HST: 13.5/.87 "They perform about the same" 
45 makes a 21% larger hole than 9mm and penetrates further doing it. 9mm holds more bullets, has less recoil, cheaper, sufficient for SD/ duty. "Apples to apples" 45 (and 40) make bigger holes. |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 10:54:37 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suppose the.lungs are hollow, thats about it though Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm not really a fan of the f-b-i, but they have come up with measurable, reproducible, and consistent testing. Ballistic gel mimics muscle, so I don't know where the penetration requirements fall into measuring a hollow chest filled with hollow organs performance.9MM has less recoil, lots of folks from lots of backgrounds are employed, and many have probably never handled a firearm before training. Yes it could help in followups. All said, I like the round they commissioned to build because the light 10MM rounds met the requirements, we know it is .40 S&W. Just an opinion. I suppose the.lungs are hollow, thats about it though |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 11:01:56 AM EDT
[#18]
As I have seen mentioned before I am sure the newest technology in projectiles would be applied to all calibers. That being said, I carry a 9mm as my .45 is too darn big to conceal. Just like in my chosen field instead of making women that wish to do the job perform with the equipment already present they are changing the equipment to accommodate them. 
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Posted: 6/16/2016 11:40:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Money, logistics, good enough, and money.
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Posted: 6/16/2016 2:25:44 PM EDT
[#20]
"I wouldn't be caught dead with 9mm!" --Trayvon Martin
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Posted: 6/16/2016 2:52:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, bottom line... Am I good to go with my 147gr HSTs? Yes. |
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Posted: 6/17/2016 10:02:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Federal data, heavy clothed gel: 9mm 147 HST: 12.5"/.69 40 S&W 180 HST: 12.5/.80 45 acp 230 HST: 13.5/.87 "They perform about the same"
45 makes a 21% larger hole than 9mm and penetrates further doing it. 9mm holds more bullets, has less recoil, cheaper, sufficient for SD/ duty. "Apples to apples" 45 (and 40) make bigger holes. If the only critera was "what makes a bigger hole" than that criteria would matter... |
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Posted: 6/17/2016 3:29:24 PM EDT
[#23]
If 9mm was really as anemic as some folks like to say, one would have to wonder why it's been the go-to military sidearm caliber for most of the world for so long. I can see some room for reasonable debate between 9mm v. .45 or .40, but claiming that "They just needed a smaller caliber so women can qualify with it" is just asinine. It's been killing folks dead for every bit as long as .45 has. It suffers from the same problems .45 does in ball ammo form. Good HP's render the differences in performance between the "big 3" virtually irrelevant.
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Posted: 6/17/2016 5:17:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If 9mm was really as anemic as some folks like to say, one would have to wonder why it's been the go-to military sidearm caliber for most of the world for so long. I can see some room for reasonable debate between 9mm v. .45 or .40, but claiming that "They just needed a smaller caliber so women can qualify with it" is just asinine. It's been killing folks dead for every bit as long as .45 has. It suffers from the same problems .45 does in ball ammo form. Good HP's render the differences in performance between the "big 3" virtually irrelevant. +1 The first line in Eric's signature box is relevant here |
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Posted: 6/17/2016 7:00:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anatomy 101. Lungs, heart, vena cava are all hollow organs- vessels, and located inside the chest cavity. Just below the diaphragm are the liver and spleen, both "solid" organs, but bleed like who wrote it when punctured. Kidneys are higher than most people think, but kind of out of the way. AA is hollow, and the other minor organs are locate in proximity, but really most of the other organs that will get you first. The pancreas is rather hard to live without though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not really a fan of the f-b-i, but they have come up with measurable, reproducible, and consistent testing. Ballistic gel mimics muscle, so I don't know where the penetration requirements fall into measuring a hollow chest filled with hollow organs performance.9MM has less recoil, lots of folks from lots of backgrounds are employed, and many have probably never handled a firearm before training. Yes it could help in followups. All said, I like the round they commissioned to build because the light 10MM rounds met the requirements, we know it is .40 S&W. Just an opinion. I suppose the.lungs are hollow, thats about it though The heart, if working, will be mostly full of blood. When the atrium and ventricles are pumping its not empty. So yes, if you take a heart out of the body and drain it looks hollow. But I thought we were talking real life. A milk jug is hollow too but bullets perform different when its full of blood, i mean water. |
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Posted: 6/17/2016 9:22:58 PM EDT
[#26]
What ever you think. I wasn't the one who deemed hollow or solid to the body parts, just saying. The human body is quite the remarkable organism. Look it up and go in open minded.
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Posted: 6/18/2016 7:38:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What ever you think. I wasn't the one who deemed hollow or solid to the body parts, just saying. The human body is quite the remarkable organism. Look it up and go in open minded. LOL, yes you were. You said "hollow chest cavity filled with hollow organs" Ive done a few organ disections in nursing school and have been butchering animal since I was 12. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 10:31:18 AM EDT
[#28]
The rationale for LE agencies selecting the 9mm at this time is simple. It provides comparable or nearly comparable results, round-for-round, as the .40 and .45. Also, it is cheaper for agencies to provide duty and practice ammo, as well as cheaper (and easier) to bring marginal shooters up to par, and par shooters up past par.
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Posted: 6/19/2016 2:20:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Here, try this experiment: Go ask your friendly neighborhood forensic pathologist if, without recovering the bullet, he can tell the difference between the wound pathway caused by 9x19 v. .40S&W v. .45ACP. If he's honest and competent, he'll tell you he can't. Neither can your local trauma surgeon.
Now ask them if all bullets of a specific loading will penetrate to the same depth in people. On second thought, don't bother: the answer should be obvious. Fortunately for us, the FBI testing protocols have given ammo and bullet companies nicely standardized testing, and our modern designs are markedly more consistent than the ones we had 30 years ago. Regardless of those advances, however, when those bullets hit people, some of them will behave exactly as predicted, some will have penetration far greater (or less) than predicted, some will expand far more than predicted (or even fragment), and some won't even open at all. People ain't gelatin. Gelatin is fantastic stuff, but it predicts AVERAGE bullet performance because it's homogeneous, and it has to be homogeneous or it's useless as a simulant. This fixation on a tenth of an inch (or less) greater or lesser expansion is simply mental masturbation. It's a distinction without a difference. The thing that matters most - nearly to the exclusion of all other factors - is good hits. Since there's no functional real-world difference in the wound pathways made by any of the 3 contenders, the best choice is the one that is easiest to shoot accurately and quickly, and holds the most ammo for a given pistol size. I don't like that conclusion, because I prefer a 1911 in .45ACP, but facts are facts. Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. 
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Posted: 6/19/2016 2:38:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 2:43:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They probably ______________ than most agencies, but they sure are good at running tests. FIFY We got away from 357 sig and .45 (shooters choice) and went all in with .45. Kinda wish they would have went with 9mm or .45. |
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Posted: 6/24/2016 7:50:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Remember a camel is a horse designed by committee.
Diffusion of responsibility. |
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Posted: 6/25/2016 8:36:42 AM EDT
[#33]
Main factor is cost and secondary factor is that it's recoil characteristics are more suited for a broader range of personnel (i.e. those of the feminine persuasion).
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Posted: 6/25/2016 12:15:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Main factor is cost and secondary factor is that it's recoil characteristics are more suited for a broader range of personnel (i.e. those of the feminine persuasion). Even strong shooters have issues with 40. There are Army SMU guys that will flat out say that they prefer 9mm to 40 because the latter fatigues them by the end of the day and decreases the value of the training. |
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Posted: 6/25/2016 7:32:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. 
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Posted: 6/26/2016 4:39:42 AM EDT
[#36]
I think some of it is getting better range scores from women and smaller statured men that join the FBI.
The biggest reason is I heard is that Speer came out with a Gen 2 version of the 147gr. Gold Dot. The new version has a clear plastic tip over the hollowpoint. I heard that the test results were so good that people involved in the testing were selling their own .45's and buying Glock 17's. Last I heard was that Speer had problems getting the round to expand cosistently and was going back to the drawing board. |
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Posted: 6/26/2016 9:05:50 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. Some of us have learned of the power of the dark side of the Force. I carry a Gov't model .38 Super. The bullet is 0.001" larger in diameter than the bullet of the 9x19. 0.001" isn't much, but it is enough to make the .38 Super the clear winner.
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Posted: 6/26/2016 9:16:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here, try this experiment: Go ask your friendly neighborhood forensic pathologist if, without recovering the bullet, he can tell the difference between the wound pathway caused by 9x19 v. .40S&W v. .45ACP. If he's honest and competent, he'll tell you he can't. Neither can your local trauma surgeon. Now ask them if all bullets of a specific loading will penetrate to the same depth in people. On second thought, don't bother: the answer should be obvious. Fortunately for us, the FBI testing protocols have given ammo and bullet companies nicely standardized testing, and our modern designs are markedly more consistent than the ones we had 30 years ago. Regardless of those advances, however, when those bullets hit people, some of them will behave exactly as predicted, some will have penetration far greater (or less) than predicted, some will expand far more than predicted (or even fragment), and some won't even open at all. People ain't gelatin. Gelatin is fantastic stuff, but it predicts AVERAGE bullet performance because it's homogeneous, and it has to be homogeneous or it's useless as a simulant. This fixation on a tenth of an inch (or less) greater or lesser expansion is simply mental masturbation. It's a distinction without a difference. The thing that matters most - nearly to the exclusion of all other factors - is good hits. Since there's no functional real-world difference in the wound pathways made by any of the 3 contenders, the best choice is the one that is easiest to shoot accurately and quickly, and holds the most ammo for a given pistol size. I don't like that conclusion, because I prefer a 1911 in .45ACP, but facts are facts. Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Because intermediate barriers such as automotive glass, car bodies, or heavy clothing simply don't matter, nor does dense bone or assailants of abnormally large size and muscularity. |
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Posted: 6/26/2016 8:07:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If 9mm was really as anemic as some folks like to say, one would have to wonder why it's been the go-to military sidearm caliber for most of the world for so long. I can see some room for reasonable debate between 9mm v. .45 or .40, but claiming that "They just needed a smaller caliber so women can qualify with it" is just asinine. It's been killing folks dead for every bit as long as .45 has. It suffers from the same problems .45 does in ball ammo form. Good HP's render the differences in performance between the "big 3" virtually irrelevant. Not every 9x19 is equal, same for the others. |
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Posted: 6/26/2016 8:09:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Eventually we'll all just carry Hi-Powers, and balance will be restored to the Force. |
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Posted: 6/26/2016 8:11:17 PM EDT
[#41]
A significant experience for me was doing counter ambush drills with a 1911. It didn't have the reliability or magazine capacity. The guys with the G19s were doing a lot better.
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Posted: 6/26/2016 11:05:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A significant experience for me was doing counter ambush drills with a 1911. It didn't have the reliability or magazine capacity. The guys with the G19s were doing a lot better. Guys who carried 1911s for hostage rescue back in the day, often carried 7 or more spare mags. That's a shit ton of mag changes for a secondary weapon. Now, they carry a Glock and 1-2 spare mags... I love 1911s but I can't argue on mag changes. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:35:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because intermediate barriers such as automotive glass, car bodies, or heavy clothing simply don't matter, nor does dense bone or assailants of abnormally large size and muscularity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here, try this experiment: Go ask your friendly neighborhood forensic pathologist if, without recovering the bullet, he can tell the difference between the wound pathway caused by 9x19 v. .40S&W v. .45ACP. If he's honest and competent, he'll tell you he can't. Neither can your local trauma surgeon. Now ask them if all bullets of a specific loading will penetrate to the same depth in people. On second thought, don't bother: the answer should be obvious. Fortunately for us, the FBI testing protocols have given ammo and bullet companies nicely standardized testing, and our modern designs are markedly more consistent than the ones we had 30 years ago. Regardless of those advances, however, when those bullets hit people, some of them will behave exactly as predicted, some will have penetration far greater (or less) than predicted, some will expand far more than predicted (or even fragment), and some won't even open at all. People ain't gelatin. Gelatin is fantastic stuff, but it predicts AVERAGE bullet performance because it's homogeneous, and it has to be homogeneous or it's useless as a simulant. This fixation on a tenth of an inch (or less) greater or lesser expansion is simply mental masturbation. It's a distinction without a difference. The thing that matters most - nearly to the exclusion of all other factors - is good hits. Since there's no functional real-world difference in the wound pathways made by any of the 3 contenders, the best choice is the one that is easiest to shoot accurately and quickly, and holds the most ammo for a given pistol size. I don't like that conclusion, because I prefer a 1911 in .45ACP, but facts are facts. Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Because intermediate barriers such as automotive glass, car bodies, or heavy clothing simply don't matter, nor does dense bone or assailants of abnormally large size and muscularity. Not sure if I need to re-calibrate my sarcasm meter. However, all the mentioned non-human variables are exactly the things the FBI protocols are specifically designed to test, and find no practical difference between the Big 3. As to the human variables, bone density is essentially irrelevant for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there's just not that much difference in between 90th %ile bone and 99th %ile. Secondly, the heart and aorta are not encased in heavy bone. The brain is, but modern hollowpoints have no trouble defeating even the thickest skull I've seen. If you're shooting through dense bone, you're aiming at the wrong stuff. As to the size / muscularity issue, since the ammo makers design for the 12 - 18 inch sweet spot regardless of whether it's .45ACP, .40S&W, or 9x19, you're going to get similar penetration across the board. You'd have to switch to ball to get greater penetration, but then everything would still perform pretty much the same, only with deeper penetration. As always, use whatever you want. Just don't expect it to make much (if any) difference. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 1:33:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not drinking there Kool-Aide I'm a handgun hunter, and in my experience 44 and 45 work better than 357 magnum, on big midwestern deer ....and my 357magnum loads are heavier, faster, and deeper penetrating than 9mm I suspect the switch was made so there smaller/female agents can qualify ...and for that, I understand there decision ....kinda Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not drinking there Kool-Aide I'm a handgun hunter, and in my experience 44 and 45 work better than 357 magnum, on big midwestern deer ....and my 357magnum loads are heavier, faster, and deeper penetrating than 9mm I suspect the switch was made so there smaller/female agents can qualify ...and for that, I understand there decision ....kinda It's funny, people skim right over posts such as the one above, in favor of watching youtube videos of folks shooting gelatin blocks or reading why the FBI does this or that. (I thought we didn't trust the government...?) Yet every year thousands of we hunters take to the field with various handguns as we've done since Elmer Keith made it popular back in the '20's, and every year we drag lots of dead animals home. By now we have pretty much figured out what works and what doesn't work. Among we handgun hunters, there's little argument over minimum caliber and the .357 is universally considered minimum, at best, for deer which are pretty similar in size to a human being. And I've not heard or read of ANYONE who chooses a 9mm for hunting game. Most of us choose a .44 or .45 caliber and a non-expanding bullet with a fairly wide nose such as a WFN or SWC. Why? Because penetration trumps everything. This is not a suggestion that everyone carry a .44 or .45 revolver for SD, but indicative that the larger the bullet, the better the results. One thing I find puzzling is they state the 9mm is easier to hit with and incapacitates better than the larger calibers, yet they also find the greater magazine capacity plus. So, if it truly is better at these two things, why would additional magazine capacity matter? Quoted:
Federal data, heavy clothed gel: 9mm 147 HST: 12.5"/.69 40 S&W 180 HST: 12.5/.80 45 acp 230 HST: 13.5/.87 "They perform about the same"
45 makes a 21% larger hole than 9mm and penetrates further doing it. 9mm holds more bullets, has less recoil, cheaper, sufficient for SD/ duty. "Apples to apples" 45 (and 40) make bigger holes. Confusing to me as well. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 1:34:50 AM EDT
[#45]
Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common.
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Posted: 7/21/2016 1:43:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common. Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting.
But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 1:56:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting. But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common. Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting. But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. "Anecdote" is not synonymous with "data" |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 2:48:17 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting.
But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Handgun hunting and gunfightkng don't have a lot in common. Nor does shooting blocks of gelatin and gunfighting.
But the discussion is over the effectiveness of ammunition, and some of us have actually fired bullets into living, breathing flesh and formed our own opinions based on empirical evidence. I really couldn't care less what the FBI carries or thinks is best, but I do enjoy the discussion and reading others opinions. 
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Posted: 7/21/2016 5:19:57 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If 9mm was really as anemic as some folks like to say, one would have to wonder why it's been the go-to military sidearm caliber for most of the world for so long. I can see some room for reasonable debate between 9mm v. .45 or .40, but claiming that "They just needed a smaller caliber so women can qualify with it" is just asinine. It's been killing folks dead for every bit as long as .45 has. It suffers from the same problems .45 does in ball ammo form. Good HP's render the differences in performance between the "big 3" virtually irrelevant. Boom |
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Posted: 7/21/2016 6:04:23 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here, try this experiment: Go ask your friendly neighborhood forensic pathologist if, without recovering the bullet, he can tell the difference between the wound pathway caused by 9x19 v. .40S&W v. .45ACP. If he's honest and competent, he'll tell you he can't. Neither can your local trauma surgeon. Now ask them if all bullets of a specific loading will penetrate to the same depth in people. On second thought, don't bother: the answer should be obvious. Fortunately for us, the FBI testing protocols have given ammo and bullet companies nicely standardized testing, and our modern designs are markedly more consistent than the ones we had 30 years ago. Regardless of those advances, however, when those bullets hit people, some of them will behave exactly as predicted, some will have penetration far greater (or less) than predicted, some will expand far more than predicted (or even fragment), and some won't even open at all. People ain't gelatin. Gelatin is fantastic stuff, but it predicts AVERAGE bullet performance because it's homogeneous, and it has to be homogeneous or it's useless as a simulant. This fixation on a tenth of an inch (or less) greater or lesser expansion is simply mental masturbation. It's a distinction without a difference. The thing that matters most - nearly to the exclusion of all other factors - is good hits. Since there's no functional real-world difference in the wound pathways made by any of the 3 contenders, the best choice is the one that is easiest to shoot accurately and quickly, and holds the most ammo for a given pistol size. I don't like that conclusion, because I prefer a 1911 in .45ACP, but facts are facts. Ergo, a 9x19 Hi-Power is the correct choice. Seems logical. |
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