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Posted: 11/30/2014 11:41:59 PM EDT
[#1]
He stopped once a bullet hit something important. That's the most you can expect from a handgun.
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Posted: 12/1/2014 12:35:37 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He stopped once a bullet hit something important. That's the most you can expect from a handgun. There should be more to expect from a handgun, considering all variations of models and ammo available. The criminal was hit on the head and according to witnesses kept charging. 
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Posted: 12/1/2014 12:45:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There should be more to expect from a handgun, considering all variations of models and ammo available. The criminal was hit on the head and according to witnesses kept charging.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He stopped once a bullet hit something important. That's the most you can expect from a handgun. There should be more to expect from a handgun, considering all variations of models and ammo available. The criminal was hit on the head and according to witnesses kept charging.
One round went in through the eye, and exited around the jaw, re-entered through the collarbone (which gives you an idea of the trajectory). There is nothing ABSOLUTELY critical along that path. The fatal shot entered the top of his head (downward, along that same trajectory). He stopped when the bullet hit something important. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 9:16:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There should be more to expect from a handgun, considering all variations of models and ammo available. The criminal was hit on the head and according to witnesses kept charging.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
He stopped once a bullet hit something important. That's the most you can expect from a handgun. There should be more to expect from a handgun, considering all variations of models and ammo available. The criminal was hit on the head and according to witnesses kept charging.
All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair. I expect all handguns to underperform, some underperform worse than others. Tomac |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 2:04:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair. I expect all handguns to underperform, some underperform worse than others. Tomac Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He stopped once a bullet hit something important. That's the most you can expect from a handgun. There should be more to expect from a handgun, considering all variations of models and ammo available. The criminal was hit on the head and according to witnesses kept charging.
All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair. I expect all handguns to underperform, some underperform worse than others. Tomac Best post this forum has ever or will ever see. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 2:10:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Shot placement , or lack thereof. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 11:37:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Most shots were in the assailants periphery. That won't get it done. I believe he was using HSTs. In one of the evidence photos they show a live round and it looks like an HST.
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Posted: 12/2/2014 12:06:00 AM EDT
[#8]
OK. So, what's the conclusion in this case? I'm trying to get a lessons learned conclusion, since anyone could have a 300lbs "raging bull" charging against him/her and family.
Based on the comments, "one of the bullets hit an important part of the assailant". So, by this it's better having a smaller cal that allows for faster follow through shots? Or, a bigger cal that will tend to cause more damage with fewer shots? In this case it seems more shots did a better job stopping the criminal than fewer on a bigger cal would have done since the policeman had to spray him until one bullet hit the critical area. Makes sense? |
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Posted: 12/2/2014 1:23:06 AM EDT
[#9]
CNS hits are the only ones that matter in the short term, is the take away here. The more chances you have to connect with the right spot the better your odds are.
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Posted: 12/2/2014 12:35:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK. So, what's the conclusion in this case? I'm trying to get a lessons learned conclusion, since anyone could have a 300lbs "raging bull" charging against him/her and family. Based on the comments, "one of the bullets hit an important part of the assailant". So, by this it's better having a smaller cal that allows for faster follow through shots? Or, a bigger cal that will tend to cause more damage with fewer shots? In this case it seems more shots did a better job stopping the criminal than fewer on a bigger cal would have done since the policeman had to spray him until one bullet hit the critical area. Makes sense? Don't overthink it. The "lessons learned" from this shooting is the same as from every other shooting: only good hits matter. A "good hit" is defined as a bullet that damages CNS or heart / great vessels. Within the range of "serious" pistol cartridges (9x19 to .45 ACP), there is no practical difference in wounding. Bigger calibers don't really cause more damage. More shots don't help if none of them hit the important stuff. Caveat: generally speaking, people don't like to get shot, so even lousy hits may be sufficient to end the attack. That's not really a sound plan, however. Perhaps the most helpful thing any of us can do is to study anatomy. The important bits are not where most people think they are, and aiming at a particular spot on the body surface is not adequate: an assailant is not going to be standing in standard anatomic position. Just as with game animals, one must learn and practice visualizing people's organs in 3 dimensions, and aim for specific internal targets. |
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Posted: 12/2/2014 3:20:11 PM EDT
[#11]
You can't miss fast enough. One or two well placed shots beat a magazine of poorly placed shots.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:24:17 PM EDT
[#12]
We don't carry handguns because of their stopping power. We carry them because they're convenient. You want stopping power, carry a shotgun. All handgun calibers are relatively inefficient when used on human targets. Carry whatever you're comfortable with. Practice. Practice some more. Try to hit what you need to. Big bullet, little bullet, it really makes little difference.
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Posted: 12/4/2014 3:29:10 AM EDT
[#13]
Take it from a guy that's never been in a gunfight. There is a 99.5% chance, that we will not ever be in a gun battle. Of the .5%, there is a 99.5% chance that they will be using a handgun. In all statistics, there is an 80% chance of surviving a handgun wound.
Like most of us, I own several AR's. I love them, I train with them, I practice hard with them. Should I ever need one, I am sure the odds will be in my favor. That said, I train harder than I ever do, with my Glocks. I buy good ammo, I shoot the hell out of them. In my humble opinion, if you want to be a half assed decent gunfighter with a pistol, there is a lot of work to do. Going to the range (like 98% of people), and shooting 2 boxes of ammo, twice a year, probably isn't going to cut shit. It takes a lot of training to be decent I imagine. Darren Wilson, was in a fight for his life, and it isn't all pretty I imagine. |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 3:49:05 AM EDT
[#14]
Very few if any die from being shot in the arm apparently . Head much more so.
Year To Date Totals Shot & Killed: 350 Shot & Wounded: 2033 Total Shot: 2383 Total Homicides: 415 2014 Chicago Crime & Murder Stats 
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Posted: 12/4/2014 3:49:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Four of the six that hit him were not life threatening, even the one though the eye may not have killed him the one in the top of the head definitely did though, Micheal Brown was determined to kill Officer Wilson and get away, some people just getting shot will be enough to convince you to stop, in this case MB continued to try to kill the officer even after he had been shot several times. Shot placement is everything, and handguns are only there so you can fight to your long gun.
Which is another reason why my local PD is not prepared, they are allowed to have an AR in th car, but the magazine must be locked in the trunk, and they are only allowed one magazine if caught with more than one magazine in the vehicle for their AR it is immediate Termination. Hopefully now the that they fired are Chief things will change. |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 6:28:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CNS hits are the only ones that matter in the short term, is the take away here. The more chances you have to connect with the right spot the better your odds are. I'd have to say that destruction of major components of the skeletal system ranks right up there with it. A shattered pelvis will stop near anyone from moving ahead but won't have the definitive stop of shutting down the CNS. |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 8:40:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd have to say that destruction of major components of the skeletal system ranks right up there with it. A shattered pelvis will stop near anyone from moving ahead but won't have the definitive stop of shutting down the CNS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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CNS hits are the only ones that matter in the short term, is the take away here. The more chances you have to connect with the right spot the better your odds are. I'd have to say that destruction of major components of the skeletal system ranks right up there with it. A shattered pelvis will stop near anyone from moving ahead but won't have the definitive stop of shutting down the CNS. Any clue how destructive a pelvis smash is??? You can lose 2 liters of blood in a hell of a hurry. It is probably 3rd, to a CNS, or Heart shot. It does't get much airtime though. But I would damn sure roll a mag through a pelvis, for sure if I was dealing with armor. |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 9:25:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any clue how destructive a pelvis smash is??? You can lose 2 liters of blood in a hell of a hurry. It is probably 3rd, to a CNS, or Heart shot. It does't get much airtime though. But I would damn sure roll a mag through a pelvis, for sure if I was dealing with armor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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CNS hits are the only ones that matter in the short term, is the take away here. The more chances you have to connect with the right spot the better your odds are. I'd have to say that destruction of major components of the skeletal system ranks right up there with it. A shattered pelvis will stop near anyone from moving ahead but won't have the definitive stop of shutting down the CNS. Any clue how destructive a pelvis smash is??? You can lose 2 liters of blood in a hell of a hurry. It is probably 3rd, to a CNS, or Heart shot. It does't get much airtime though. But I would damn sure roll a mag through a pelvis, for sure if I was dealing with armor. People talk about pelvis shots quite a bit, but nobody mentions that merely hitting the pelvis is not sufficient. While the pelvis as a whole is a big target, the important stuff in it is not much more than a palm width in the center (iliac blood vessels, which are themselves about pencil diameter, and sacroiliac joints), with the actual hip joints and their associated vasculature no bigger than a racquet ball. You only lose that 2 liters of blood if you make holes in the iliac vessels,and you only lose it fast if you hit iliac arteries. A front-to-back shot to the pelvis more than about 4 inches off midline just breaks the iliac wing, which does essentially nothing. Pistol bullets don't cause a lot of bone fragmentation, so you can't expect to "grenade" the pelvis like you can with a rifle bullet. Breaking a hip may keep a lion from getting to you, but it won't keep Danny Dritbag from continuing to shoot at you. Mind you, I'm not advocating for or against pelvis shots, merely pointing out that it's not as simple as "shoot the pelvis"; one needs to know the anatomy in order to make an effective shot, because the vital bits are actually pretty small, relatively speaking. |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 9:57:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Handguns in duty calibers suck.
Every once in awhile the shooter gets lucky. The duty round carried by that officer was 180 gr Federal HST |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 10:32:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People talk about pelvis shots quite a bit, but nobody mentions that merely hitting the pelvis is not sufficient. While the pelvis as a whole is a big target, the important stuff in it is not much more than a palm width in the center (iliac blood vessels, which are themselves about pencil diameter, and sacroiliac joints), with the actual hip joints and their associated vasculature no bigger than a racquet ball. You only lose that 2 liters of blood if you make holes in the iliac vessels,and you only lose it fast if you hit iliac arteries. A front-to-back shot to the pelvis more than about 4 inches off midline just breaks the iliac wing, which does essentially nothing. Pistol bullets don't cause a lot of bone fragmentation, so you can't expect to "grenade" the pelvis like you can with a rifle bullet. Breaking a hip may keep a lion from getting to you, but it won't keep Danny Dritbag from continuing to shoot at you. Mind you, I'm not advocating for or against pelvis shots, merely pointing out that it's not as simple as "shoot the pelvis"; one needs to know the anatomy in order to make an effective shot, because the vital bits are actually pretty small, relatively speaking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
CNS hits are the only ones that matter in the short term, is the take away here. The more chances you have to connect with the right spot the better your odds are. I'd have to say that destruction of major components of the skeletal system ranks right up there with it. A shattered pelvis will stop near anyone from moving ahead but won't have the definitive stop of shutting down the CNS. Any clue how destructive a pelvis smash is??? You can lose 2 liters of blood in a hell of a hurry. It is probably 3rd, to a CNS, or Heart shot. It does't get much airtime though. But I would damn sure roll a mag through a pelvis, for sure if I was dealing with armor. People talk about pelvis shots quite a bit, but nobody mentions that merely hitting the pelvis is not sufficient. While the pelvis as a whole is a big target, the important stuff in it is not much more than a palm width in the center (iliac blood vessels, which are themselves about pencil diameter, and sacroiliac joints), with the actual hip joints and their associated vasculature no bigger than a racquet ball. You only lose that 2 liters of blood if you make holes in the iliac vessels,and you only lose it fast if you hit iliac arteries. A front-to-back shot to the pelvis more than about 4 inches off midline just breaks the iliac wing, which does essentially nothing. Pistol bullets don't cause a lot of bone fragmentation, so you can't expect to "grenade" the pelvis like you can with a rifle bullet. Breaking a hip may keep a lion from getting to you, but it won't keep Danny Dritbag from continuing to shoot at you. Mind you, I'm not advocating for or against pelvis shots, merely pointing out that it's not as simple as "shoot the pelvis"; one needs to know the anatomy in order to make an effective shot, because the vital bits are actually pretty small, relatively speaking. Same here with advocating for or against. I wasn't trying to create the impression that shooting at the pelvis = explosion. Just merely stating that damaging the skeletal structure in key points can lead to a stop (not death) much like shutting down the cns. There's been quite a few case where a handful of body shots hit nothing of importance and a stray round destroyed/shattered an integral part of the skeletal system which lead to effective stop in the encounter. The size of the critical area of the head that will lead to a stop isn't exactly a large target either. Many have been shot in the head and survived/continued an attack. Let alone the fact the head is also one of the hardest targets to hit accurately on the human body that's actually worth shooting for. The post was more about the end result rather than the effort involved to achieve it. |
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Posted: 12/5/2014 12:14:22 AM EDT
[#21]
So, if I am reading this correctly, it's better to have a pistol that will carry a double-stack magazine than those thinner single-stack.
They do not conceal as easy and are a bit heavier, but give more shots, which in turn increase the chance to hit a critical area that will stop the attack. And if I understood right we need to keep shooting until the attacker is not moving on the ground or running away since a couple shots can still leave a lot of fight, thus a very dangerous attacker. |
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Posted: 12/5/2014 1:38:36 AM EDT
[#22]
Pigbat, all good points you make. Being a fireman/medic, I'm pretty savvy on the a/p of what you said correctly.
In a really bad spot, my plan A is not to charge up, sights on some bad guys balls...lol. For sure, an AR would give you a lot more destruction in that area. I guess my only point, was just bringing up options. Options are good. |
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Posted: 12/5/2014 9:05:13 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, if I am reading this correctly, it's better to have a pistol that will carry a double-stack magazine than those thinner single-stack. They do not conceal as easy and are a bit heavier, but give more shots, which in turn increase the chance to hit a critical area that will stop the attack. And if I understood right we need to keep shooting until the attacker is not moving on the ground or running away since a couple shots can still leave a lot of fight, thus a very dangerous attacker. Agreed on both points. Tomac |
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Posted: 12/5/2014 11:22:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, if I am reading this correctly, it's better to have a pistol that will carry a double-stack magazine than those thinner single-stack. They do not conceal as easy and are a bit heavier, but give more shots, which in turn increase the chance to hit a critical area that will stop the attack. And if I understood right we need to keep shooting until the attacker is not moving on the ground or running away since a couple shots can still leave a lot of fight, thus a very dangerous attacker. Of course more capacity is better. You just need to decided how much conceal ability and weight you want to trade for it. You shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. That's something I think most people would be constantly assessing subconsciously automatically, as most people don't really want to harm another person. When you are no longer threatened with serious harm or death, you need to stop shooting. It WILL take a moment to realize the threat has stopped and more shots are often fired as information is processed and the decision is made to stop shooting. |
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Posted: 12/7/2014 1:39:07 AM EDT
[#25]
My takeaway here is to shoot a gun that I can accurately and consistently place shots into the CNS and head with, because otherwise it's a crapshoot. Any good hollow point will work if I can handle it; Critical Defense 9mm 105 grains work exceedingly well for me.
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Posted: 12/7/2014 3:17:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Thoughts? The media has been pretty quit about it, but the tox report said that Brown was high as a kite. Brown was high enough on THC to make an entire football team happy for the weekend. 98% of the time that makes someone mellow and want to do nothing more violent than sit at home on the couch and watch Scoobie Doo. Sometimes that makes folks crazy-assed paranoid delusional though. People high on drugs can do some pretty weird stuff, mostly because they simply don't react to being shot. At that point, unless the bullet goes through an important part of the brain, or through the spinal column, the bad guy isn't going to stop simply because you shot him. |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 8:21:34 PM EDT
[#27]
There is no such thing as "stopping power."
That's why I sold my compact .45 carry gun, and got the same gun in 9mm. I love my full size, full weight .45s for fun shooting, but when I have to shoot fast and accurately to save my life, make mine a 9mm. |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 9:11:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Yep. This got me thinking switching my .40 for a 9mm.
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Posted: 12/12/2014 11:47:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. This got me thinking switching my .40 for a 9mm. You'll be glad you did. What, really, in a life-saving situation, will a 165 grain 10mm bullet at 980 fps do that a 124 grain 9mm bullet at 1150 fps won't do? Once you understand that bullets poke holes, is there really a difference between a 10mm hole and a 9mm hole? There's a world of difference, for me, in accuracy and speed of follow up shots in a 25 ounce 3" 1911 between .45 and 9mm. I absolutely feel more confident now that I've downsized to 9mm. I really was overgunned in a light .45 and I suppose in the back of my mind I knew it all along. In the 80s after Miami it was all about more power in a service-size gun. (But even back then, I always knew I shot my Hi-Power better than my beloved full size .45s). Then with concealed carry laws coming in, it was all about the most powerful cartridge in the smallest lightest package. This resulted in .40 chamberings in guns that a few years before had been considered .380-size packages. Now, people are thinking correctly about the intended purpose of a carry gun, i.e. to put the most bullets fastest into a vital zone. I don't think this is just another "fad," but a real evaluation of what's the best compromise (and all handguns are compromises) to save your bacon. That's where the 9mm comes in. Do it. |
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Posted: 12/13/2014 1:30:24 AM EDT
[#30]
My P229 in .40 holds 12+1. (Same as what the officer had, I think)
The officer fired 12 shots at a single person before they went down. That's something to think about. |
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Posted: 12/13/2014 1:49:33 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'll be glad you did. What, really, in a life-saving situation, will a 165 grain 10mm bullet at 980 fps do that a 124 grain 9mm bullet at 1150 fps won't do? Once you understand that bullets poke holes, is there really a difference between a 10mm hole and a 9mm hole? There's a world of difference, for me, in accuracy and speed of follow up shots in a 25 ounce 3" 1911 between .45 and 9mm. I absolutely feel more confident now that I've downsized to 9mm. I really was overgunned in a light .45 and I suppose in the back of my mind I knew it all along. In the 80s after Miami it was all about more power in a service-size gun. (But even back then, I always knew I shot my Hi-Power better than my beloved full size .45s). Then with concealed carry laws coming in, it was all about the most powerful cartridge in the smallest lightest package. This resulted in .40 chamberings in guns that a few years before had been considered .380-size packages. Now, people are thinking correctly about the intended purpose of a carry gun, i.e. to put the most bullets fastest into a vital zone. I don't think this is just another "fad," but a real evaluation of what's the best compromise (and all handguns are compromises) to save your bacon. That's where the 9mm comes in. Do it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep. This got me thinking switching my .40 for a 9mm. You'll be glad you did. What, really, in a life-saving situation, will a 165 grain 10mm bullet at 980 fps do that a 124 grain 9mm bullet at 1150 fps won't do? Once you understand that bullets poke holes, is there really a difference between a 10mm hole and a 9mm hole? There's a world of difference, for me, in accuracy and speed of follow up shots in a 25 ounce 3" 1911 between .45 and 9mm. I absolutely feel more confident now that I've downsized to 9mm. I really was overgunned in a light .45 and I suppose in the back of my mind I knew it all along. In the 80s after Miami it was all about more power in a service-size gun. (But even back then, I always knew I shot my Hi-Power better than my beloved full size .45s). Then with concealed carry laws coming in, it was all about the most powerful cartridge in the smallest lightest package. This resulted in .40 chamberings in guns that a few years before had been considered .380-size packages. Now, people are thinking correctly about the intended purpose of a carry gun, i.e. to put the most bullets fastest into a vital zone. I don't think this is just another "fad," but a real evaluation of what's the best compromise (and all handguns are compromises) to save your bacon. That's where the 9mm comes in. Do it. Words from a true warrior. |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 8:19:18 PM EDT
[#32]
That is why the 165 gn Ranger T at 1140 fps is the better choice than the 180's.
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