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45BArmorer
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Posted: 3/1/2012 11:31:02 PM
I've always used 230 grain hollow point as my carry ammo.
Hydro-shock, Black talon, Hornady SXT etc...

Picked up a box of Hornady Critical Defense without looking closely enough (my 5 year old was being a bit distractive) ended up picking up 185 grain instead of my usual 230 grain.

How much difference is there between 185 and 230 grain self deference bullets. And I don't mean just 45 grains difference :)
Idahoskunk
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Posted: 3/2/2012 12:34:13 AM
[Last Edit: 4/8/2012 2:48:14 PM by Idahoskunk]
for 20 years i've always used 185 grain hollow points and after reading this forum now i'm thinking of going to 230 grainer's. i did buy a couple of boxes of corbon 185 tsx's and i think they are awesome shooting with very low recoil. they would definitely take out milk jugs, wall board or zombies with no problem! i used the 185er's because they matched my 200 grain h&g68 hand loads hole in hole. but for pistols a inch one way or the other in 20 to 30 feet probably won't matter. especilly when i'm pissing my pants in a fire fight!




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Bones45
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Posted: 3/2/2012 8:30:37 AM
A lot. With pistols, penetration is everything and for reliable penetration you need high sectional density. The light 45 rounds combine relatively low mass with high cross sectional area creating some of the LOWEST sectional densities. Predictably, penetration suffers.

For a low recoil, high sectional density reliable penetration try a 9mm using 147 grain bullets.
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Posted: 3/2/2012 9:18:02 AM
They might shoot to a different point of impact in your gun, but I bet a bad guy wouldn't know the difference.
BlindFaith429
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Posted: 3/2/2012 3:09:49 PM
These rounds?



I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true? I don't know, I have never done any testing.

I will tell you that I run the ammo posted in the pic above. It runs well in my handgun, and was the only weight they had in that ammo at the local store. They had a few other off-brands, but I chose the Hornady rounds.

What matters more than "what weight bullets are better" is the question of "will it run in my gun". If it runs okay, then use it. I see no reason not to.
America-first
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Posted: 3/2/2012 5:14:58 PM
[Last Edit: 3/2/2012 5:22:17 PM by America-first]
Penetration first, expansion second.

If your gun will not run reliably with any of the loads listed as acceptable in the AMMO FAQ; then it's time to find one that will.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.45ACP

IIRC; . 45ACP Critical Defense is designed to provide less penetration than the FBI minimum in order to offer private citizens a lower penetraion and therefore, less effective round than law enforcement agencies routinely utilize.

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Posted: 3/3/2012 1:01:50 PM
Originally Posted By America-first:
Penetration first, expansion second.

If your gun will not run reliably with any of the loads listed as acceptable in the AMMO FAQ; then it's time to find one that will.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.45ACP

IIRC; . 45ACP Critical Defense is designed to provide less penetration than the FBI minimum in order to offer private citizens a lower penetraion and therefore, less effective round than law enforcement agencies routinely utilize.



Yep. If my options were CD (or pretty much any other, barring solid copper HPs,) in 185 or 230 FMJ, I'd carry hardball.
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Posted: 3/4/2012 1:06:10 PM
There's a lot to be said for a big fat 230 grain bullet that goes deep. If I didn't live in a state populated by hoplophobic assholes I'd choose a quality 230 grain JHP for HD. That being said and Nazi Jerky being factored into the equation, my HD load is 200grain +P EFMJ. Perhaps not ideal, but practical in the land of the terminally stupid juror. This assumes that any dead body would somehow be found on my living room floor and not behind KMart.
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Posted: 3/4/2012 8:43:37 PM
[Last Edit: 3/4/2012 8:45:26 PM by NVGdude]


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B
BlindFaith429
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Posted: 3/5/2012 7:36:11 PM
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B


Interesting. Learn something new every day. I will be sure to replace the 185's in my 1911.
Sgt_Gold
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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:15:27 PM
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B


Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does. Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet. Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.
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SPTiger
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Posted: 3/8/2012 9:18:55 AM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B


Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does. Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet. Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.


Well crap. My 1911 that I'm going to carry has a 4" barrel and I just ordered some of the plain 230 grain Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a ton of the regular Gold Dots in that gun so I know they're reliable. If the SB Gold Dot has a bigger cavity I wonder if the profile is any different from the standard Gold Dot?
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Posted: 3/8/2012 11:23:05 AM
[Last Edit: 3/8/2012 11:25:14 AM by VBC]
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
[Well crap. My 1911 that I'm going to carry has a 4" barrel and I just ordered some of the plain 230 grain Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a ton of the regular Gold Dots in that gun so I know they're reliable. If the SB Gold Dot has a bigger cavity I wonder if the profile is any different from the standard Gold Dot?


The bullet profile or ogive looks the same between the two. The difference is in the shape of the cavity inside the bullet. SB cavity is just cut straight down into the bullet like a cylinder, rather than cone shaped down into the bullet. The SB cavity is also shallower and has a flat bottom about halfway down inside the bullet, whereas the cavity of the regular bullet tapers down deep inside the bullet, almost to the bottom. If you get complete expansion of the regular bullet, you should see a little gold dot in the middle of the mushroom, which is the bottom of the jacket showing.

The SB bullet almost reminds me of a copper solid sabot slug for a shotgun. The top half of it petals out and the bottom half remains solid to give it penetration. Fairly nasty. But if you can drive a regular Gold Dot fast enough to fully expand it all way to the gold dot, you got one extremely nasty round.

Sgt_Gold
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Posted: 3/8/2012 11:34:28 AM
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B


Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does. Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet. Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.


Well crap. My 1911 that I'm going to carry has a 4" barrel and I just ordered some of the plain 230 grain Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a ton of the regular Gold Dots in that gun so I know they're reliable. If the SB Gold Dot has a bigger cavity I wonder if the profile is any different from the standard Gold Dot?


The profile between the two bullets is visually identical as far as I can tell. The only difference in dimensions I can see is the mouth of the SB round is ever so slightly larger. My EDC is an HK45c which has a 3.9" barrel. I don't think .1" is enough to guarantee failure if I end up having to use the regular GD round. On 1911's a 4" barrel is rare, are you sure it's not a 4.25" Commander length?
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SPTiger
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Posted: 3/8/2012 11:48:10 AM
[Last Edit: 3/8/2012 11:48:44 AM by SPTiger]
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B




Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does. Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet. Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.


Well crap. My 1911 that I'm going to carry has a 4" barrel and I just ordered some of the plain 230 grain Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a ton of the regular Gold Dots in that gun so I know they're reliable. If the SB Gold Dot has a bigger cavity I wonder if the profile is any different from the standard Gold Dot?


The profile between the two bullets is visually identical as far as I can tell. The only difference in dimensions I can see is the mouth of the SB round is ever so slightly larger. My EDC is an HK45c which has a 3.9" barrel. I don't think .1" is enough to guarantee failure if I end up having to use the regular GD round. On 1911's a 4" barrel is rare, are you sure it's not a 4.25" Commander length?


I'm positive. It's a Springfield Champion.

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Idahoskunk
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Posted: 3/9/2012 9:08:18 PM
Who carries these SB Golddots online, I would like to try some.



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Foxnews_FTW
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Posted: 3/9/2012 9:49:35 PM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 9:52:55 PM by Foxnews_FTW]
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B


Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does. Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet. Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.


Well crap. My 1911 that I'm going to carry has a 4" barrel and I just ordered some of the plain 230 grain Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a ton of the regular Gold Dots in that gun so I know they're reliable. If the SB Gold Dot has a bigger cavity I wonder if the profile is any different from the standard Gold Dot?


The profile between the two bullets is visually identical as far as I can tell. The only difference in dimensions I can see is the mouth of the SB round is ever so slightly larger. My EDC is an HK45c which has a 3.9" barrel. I don't think .1" is enough to guarantee failure if I end up having to use the regular GD round. On 1911's a 4" barrel is rare, are you sure it's not a 4.25" Commander length?


IIRC didn't the Navy recently grab a bunch of HK45cs? I wonder what round they're using?
Someone should fire off an email telling them their threaded barrels are almost too short for the round
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NVGdude
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Posted: 3/10/2012 1:23:11 AM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:

Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does. Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet. Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.


Speer is exaggerating a little bit. Me and some friends did some chrony work a while back with a 5", 4" and 3" 1911. Velocity loss was 30 fps for each inch. It's a small sample set (only three guns) but even the 3" gun kept the muzzle velocity over 800 fps.

Speer's larger cavity on their SB round gives it a bit more wiggle room, and I believe it is designed to open up as low as 600 fps.
epthunter
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Posted: 4/8/2012 11:50:58 AM
These discussions are always fun but two in the chest with .45 anything will do the job.
America-first
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Posted: 4/8/2012 9:00:38 PM
[Last Edit: 4/8/2012 9:05:36 PM by America-first]
My carry gun has a 3.9" barrel and I carry 230 grain standard pressure HST in the gun and RA 45B in my spare magazine.

I practice enough to make up for any shortfall in the expansion due to the short barrel and my priorities are:

Absolute reliability in the gun

Consistently achieving high value hits while moving forward, backwards, or laterally.

Penetration

Expansion

In that order.
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MarcW
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Posted: 4/9/2012 11:36:20 AM
Originally Posted By epthunter:
These discussions are always fun but two in the chest with .45 anything will do the job.

nope.
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epthunter
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Posted: 4/9/2012 12:28:27 PM
Great article thanks! But the article talked only of torso hits NOT chest hits in particular.
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Posted: 4/9/2012 2:05:31 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 8:48:19 PM by Winn]
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:

Out of 4" or shorter barrels 45 ACP starts to have expansion issues sooner than 9mm or 40 cal does.

Speer is the only company AFAIK that makes a short barrel load, and if you ask them they'll tell you it's the same load as the regular Gold Dot only with a bigger cavity in the bullet.

Speer says that 4" is short barrel territory as far as 45 ACP is concerned.


I tend to agree. IMHO, a full-size .45 platform has a 5" barrel.

A 4.5" barrel translates to a compact; and a 4" bbl is a sub-compact.

Personally, I'm not interested in shooting .45s out of anything that has less than a 4 inch bbl ... okay, 3.9"

12.5, 15.50, 18.5 ...

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Posted: 4/9/2012 3:10:39 PM
I've carried 230 grain Talon, Ranger, PDX1, or Hydra Shock exclusively in my G21, Colt '91A1 Compact, and Kimber Stainless II
for years. I will continue to do so.
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Posted: 4/9/2012 4:48:18 PM
Originally Posted By epthunter:
These discussions are always fun but two in the chest with .45 anything will do the job.


X2. This is REAL stuff.
jmreagan
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Posted: 4/18/2012 8:31:16 AM
Originally Posted By BlindFaith429:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:


I may be wrong, but what I have been told in the past was that the lighter, faster 45ACP rounds had a better reliability of opening when it comes to hollow points. I have been told that the slower, heavier rounds have had issues with opening when hitting soft tissue. Is this statement true?.


No, it's not true. The heavier rounds usually have a larger hollow point, and are designed to open up at slower velocities.
Heavier rounds are more likely to work properly as the larger HP is less likely to plug up. Lighter ones will either plug up (acting like ball) or expand to quickly and not penetrate 12 inches.

Look at the "recommended ammo list" and everything on it is 230 grains except for some of the all-copper rounds. (The copper ones are a bit different since copper is much less dense than lead)


Edit to add: as others have said, the CD rounds are designed on purpose to not penetrate to the required 12" FBI minimum, stick with 230 Gold Dots, HST, Win-T, Win-B


Interesting. Learn something new every day. I will be sure to replace the 185's in my 1911.


Smart move on your part. I generally love Hornady ammuniton but those Critical Defense rounds are an under performer in my opinion. Granted you don't want something that penetrates 30 inches into ballistic gelatin........ CD's take it to the other extreme of not penetrating enough. It doesn't help that several gun stores around me are really pushing the CD line and unsuspecting patrons will take their advice. I'd rather carry the generic Winchester White Box HP's than CD's.
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