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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:17:43 PM EDT
[#1]
I think it, with someone that has a good skill set, could compete pretty good against the steel type guns.
Before I went to revolver in USPSA, I gave a long look at a M&P 40 Pro as a Limited gun. I don't want to sink $2000+ into a Limited gun. If in the future I want to change and try Limited, I will get one. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:49:26 PM EDT
[#2]
I use an M&P40 PRO in limited, and know several others that do as well. Unless you are shooting at the GM level there is very little difference your gear can make.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 9:20:27 PM EDT
[#3]
What can get capacity wise in a 140mm mag?? 20 rounds reloadable is pretty common with the STI/SVI guns.
I think most of the polymer will work for quite a while until you figure out exactly what you want. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 9:36:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What can get capacity wise in a 140mm mag?? 20 rounds reloadable is pretty common with the STI/SVI guns. I think most of the polymer will work for quite a while until you figure out exactly what you want. Quote HistoryQuoted:
What can get capacity wise in a 140mm mag?? 20 rounds reloadable is pretty common with the STI/SVI guns. I think most of the polymer will work for quite a while until you figure out exactly what you want. The Taran Tactical mag base for the M&P will hold 20+1 for .40S&W. From Taran Tactical's website- - Patented, proven push-pin design
- Super easy to attach and detach from the magazine - No specialty tools or devices required to disassemble - One piece design, no extra parts to possibly lose during disassembly - Fits the USPSA 140mm gauge - Holds 20+1 rounds of 40S&W - Holds 23+1 rounds of 9mm - Easy to reload into the gun with a full mag - Adds weight to magazine so mags drop free easier for faster reloads - CNC machined from billet aluminum - Hard Anodized - Made in the USA - Used and endorsed by multi-time World and National Champions Jerry Miculek, Team Miculek, and Julie Golob |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 10:45:16 PM EDT
[#5]
I rock a M&P45 full size in the L10 division and M&P40 pro in the limited division. All I did for them was put an Apex FSS trigger kit and a set of Ameriglo TFO sights on them. If something ever happened where I need to work on them I can more then likely fix the M&P there, the 1911 not so much. I used to shoot SVI guns back 14 or so years ago, I find the way I have these set up is really close to the 1911 without having to bring a gunsmith along.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 5:09:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
If I upgraded the sights and went flat faced APEX trigger, would an MP Pro be competitive in Limited? Or would it still lag behind the all steel/2011 type guns? I have not been to a competition in years and am thinking about going back. You are going to be competing against custom .40 1911's that hold 22 or more rounds per mag in limited. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:27:46 PM EDT
[#7]
The Apex FSS trigger kit makes the M&P the best polymer gun for Limited IME. However, 2011s dominate the top of the division--no one that's winning uses an M&P (or other polymer gun for that matter).
If you want to be competitive at local matches, then I don't see a raced out M&P as a problem for Limited. If you're trying to win Areas and Nationals, then an M&P probably won't get you there.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:32:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Apex FSS trigger kit makes the M&P the best polymer gun for Limited IME. However, 2011s dominate the top of the division--no one that's winning uses an M&P (or other polymer gun for that matter). If you want to be competitive at local matches, then I don't see a raced out M&P as a problem for Limited. If you're trying to win Areas and Nationals, then an M&P probably won't get you there. Depends on your local club. 
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:43:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on your local club. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Apex FSS trigger kit makes the M&P the best polymer gun for Limited IME. However, 2011s dominate the top of the division--no one that's winning uses an M&P (or other polymer gun for that matter). If you want to be competitive at local matches, then I don't see a raced out M&P as a problem for Limited. If you're trying to win Areas and Nationals, then an M&P probably won't get you there. Depends on your local club. I said "be competitive" not "win."
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Posted: 12/20/2014 4:10:04 PM EDT
[#10]
There have been polymer guns at the top in both open and limited if I remember right. It's always the shooter. I am not sure but I think Sevigny won limited 10 with a score that was equal or better than the limited winner shooting his glock one year. Put a real damper in the capacity is king arguments.
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:07:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There have been polymer guns at the top in both open and limited if I remember right. It's always the shooter. I am not sure but I think Sevigny won limited 10 with a score that was equal or better than the limited winner shooting his glock one year. Put a real damper in the capacity is king arguments. Bob Vogel and Dave Sevigny have won with Glocks, but they are more of an anomaly. Bob Vogel is sponsored by Glock and uses a G35 for duty, so he is well motivated to use the Glock. I'm a big fan of both the Glock and M&P, but the truth is the 2011's accuracy and trigger make it more forgiving than the striker fired guns which is why they dominate the top of the field. So I guess I should modify my previous statement: no one except occasionally a couple of the best shooters in the world are winning Limited with polymer guns. While equipment is rarely a factor for novice shooters, it does become one at more advanced levels. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:17:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bob Vogel and Dave Sevigny have won with Glocks, but they are more of an anomaly. Bob Vogel is sponsored by Glock and uses a G35 for duty, so he is well motivated to use the Glock. I'm a big fan of both the Glock and M&P, but the truth is the 2011's accuracy and trigger make it more forgiving than the striker fired guns which is why they dominate the top of the field. So I guess I should modify my previous statement: no one except occasionally a couple of the best shooters in the world are winning Limited with polymer guns. While equipment is rarely a factor for novice shooters, it does become one at more advanced levels. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There have been polymer guns at the top in both open and limited if I remember right. It's always the shooter. I am not sure but I think Sevigny won limited 10 with a score that was equal or better than the limited winner shooting his glock one year. Put a real damper in the capacity is king arguments. Bob Vogel and Dave Sevigny have won with Glocks, but they are more of an anomaly. Bob Vogel is sponsored by Glock and uses a G35 for duty, so he is well motivated to use the Glock. I'm a big fan of both the Glock and M&P, but the truth is the 2011's accuracy and trigger make it more forgiving than the striker fired guns which is why they dominate the top of the field. So I guess I should modify my previous statement: no one except occasionally a couple of the best shooters in the world are winning Limited with polymer guns. While equipment is rarely a factor for novice shooters, it does become one at more advanced levels. They may be a anomaly but the question is why. Keep in mind the 1911 style guns had a hold in the sport long before the polymer guns were anywhere close to being competitive. Most people buy 2011's because that is what most use. That is why I bought one. Do you think if you gave the top 20 shooters properly set up polymer guns they would no longer be the top 20?? I do not think that is the case. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 7:07:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They may be a anomaly but the question is why. Keep in mind the 1911 style guns had a hold in the sport long before the polymer guns were anywhere close to being competitive. Most people buy 2011's because that is what most use. That is why I bought one. Do you think if you gave the top 20 shooters properly set up polymer guns they would no longer be the top 20?? I do not think that is the case. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There have been polymer guns at the top in both open and limited if I remember right. It's always the shooter. I am not sure but I think Sevigny won limited 10 with a score that was equal or better than the limited winner shooting his glock one year. Put a real damper in the capacity is king arguments. Bob Vogel and Dave Sevigny have won with Glocks, but they are more of an anomaly. Bob Vogel is sponsored by Glock and uses a G35 for duty, so he is well motivated to use the Glock. I'm a big fan of both the Glock and M&P, but the truth is the 2011's accuracy and trigger make it more forgiving than the striker fired guns which is why they dominate the top of the field. So I guess I should modify my previous statement: no one except occasionally a couple of the best shooters in the world are winning Limited with polymer guns. While equipment is rarely a factor for novice shooters, it does become one at more advanced levels. They may be a anomaly but the question is why. Keep in mind the 1911 style guns had a hold in the sport long before the polymer guns were anywhere close to being competitive. Most people buy 2011's because that is what most use. That is why I bought one. Do you think if you gave the top 20 shooters properly set up polymer guns they would no longer be the top 20?? I do not think that is the case. The question is would they perform better, worse or the same with a lower capacity polymer gun with a lessor trigger than the same shooter using a higher capacity 1911 based gun with a better trigger? How about two equally skilled limited shooters. One with a stock 15+1 M&P and factory ammo vs the other with a 20+ round 2011 with handloads that barely make major. That's where equipment really makes a difference. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 7:09:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you think if you gave the top 20 shooters properly set up polymer guns they would no longer be the top 20?? I do not think that is the case. I think they would have lower hit factors than they did with their 2011s.
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Posted: 12/20/2014 7:16:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The question is would they perform better, worse or the same with a lower capacity polymer gun with a lessor trigger than the same shooter using a higher capacity 1911 based gun with a better trigger? How about two equally skilled limited shooters. One with a stock 15+1 M&P and factory ammo vs the other with a 20+ round 2011 with handloads that barely make major. That's where equipment really makes a difference. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The question is would they perform better, worse or the same with a lower capacity polymer gun with a lessor trigger than the same shooter using a higher capacity 1911 based gun with a better trigger? How about two equally skilled limited shooters. One with a stock 15+1 M&P and factory ammo vs the other with a 20+ round 2011 with handloads that barely make major. That's where equipment really makes a difference. That is not what this thread asked and nobody would contend a stock M&P is competitive. Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you think if you gave the top 20 shooters properly set up polymer guns they would no longer be the top 20?? I do not think that is the case. I think they would have lower hit factors than they did with their 2011s. I think that is probably true I just dont think they are as far behind as many seem to think. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 7:52:29 PM EDT
[#16]
I'm not as up on competitive equipment issues, so forgive me.
But what EXACTLY makes 2011 more competitive (from a technical standpoint) than a highly modified M&P? An Apex trigger, fitted match barrel, quality sights, magwell should provide most of the same advantages. The 2 big take-aways from my limited perusing on Brian Enos forum is that the advantages are the frame weight and the straight pull trigger. The Apex flat-face was designed to mimic the straight pull trigger, and isn't a 2011 frame actually a metal frame with a mostly plastic grip? I understand why the Glock trigger can never get to that level (being double action it's required to cock the striker before release), but the M&P seems to have a single action pull to it. Another factor why the 2011 may have a lot of popularity (according to the same above discussion) is they give out cash prizes to people who win with their guns in certain matches. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 8:33:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not as up on competitive equipment issues, so forgive me. But what EXACTLY makes 2011 more competitive (from a technical standpoint) than a highly modified M&P? An Apex trigger, fitted match barrel, quality sights, magwell should provide most of the same advantages. The 2 big take-aways from my limited perusing on Brian Enos forum is that the advantages are the frame weight and the straight pull trigger. The Apex flat-face was designed to mimic the straight pull trigger, and isn't a 2011 frame actually a metal frame with a mostly plastic grip? I understand why the Glock trigger can never get to that level (being double action it's required to cock the striker before release), but the M&P seems to have a single action pull to it. Another factor why the 2011 may have a lot of popularity (according to the same above discussion) is they give out cash prizes to people who win with their guns in certain matches. Trigger movement and mechanical accuracy. 2011 triggers can still be reliable with a lower pull weight, less pre-travel, and shorter reset than an M&P (even with a FSS kit). This induces less muzzle movement during the trigger break allowing more forgiveness in the shooter's trigger pull. Tighter mechanical accuracy gives more room for error in sight picture or trigger control on a given target size allowing for faster target engagement. For the most part these advantages are measured in hundredths of a second, but hundredths of a second are what win matches at the top level. FWIW, I actually own an STI 2011, but it sits in the safe while I shoot a Limited M&P in 3 gun. I choose to use the M&P for three reasons: ease of maintenance, similarity to my issued duty M&P, and I'm not in the top 5% of shooters where the advantages of the 2011 over a M&P will have a significant impact on my ranking. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 7:26:55 PM EDT
[#18]
A full blown Limited gun on a 2011 frame will kick any M&P based gun into the dirt. The 1911 is absolutely the best choice for IPSC competition. This is coming from a guy that once improved dramatically going from a souped up G35 to an STI Edge. The striker fired gun ain't where its at...
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