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Posted: 7/5/2014 2:45:56 PM EDT
[#1]
None of the Smith and Wesson revolvers that were issued had safeties.
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Posted: 7/5/2014 3:02:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand why so many people think the military would NEVER adopt a pistol without a manual safety. Perhaps that was a huge factor decades ago, but I doubt its going to keep them from evaluating the Glock/M&P/etc. for the MHS contract. The Brits have gotten over it and adopted the G17 Gen4. Plenty of other NATO countries issue the Glock. Many US Special Forces units already use Glocks. Hell, we've been issuing the M11 (SIG P228) for decades and it doesn't have a manual safety either. M11s are mainly used by CID and other LE agencies in the DOD, they are not standard issue. The JCP order was for 45,000 with no external safety and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration. Showing that the military is still wanting a manual safety on the standard issue pistol. Glock entered the 21SF which means they were willing to produce them with manual safeties. The military doesn't need a new pistol, they need new training and JHP ammo. Instead of wasting money on these pointless trials they should be contracting NRA instructors to do pistol training. The complaints against the M9 are overly exaggerated and result from bad maintenance and training. |
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Posted: 7/6/2014 1:13:51 PM EDT
[#3]
LOL, yeah right after the m4 gets replaced.
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Posted: 7/6/2014 1:17:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Money better spent on better ammo and training.
The M9 Sucks, and DA/SA is stupid... But it works. |
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Posted: 7/6/2014 2:22:47 PM EDT
[#5]
I agree better training first and foremost and JHP overseas. When I was in the AF we carried Hollow points stateside and FMJ overseas for obvious reasons. I hate the M9 never shot it well but the gun I carried at my second base entered service in 87 so that tells you how much they care about our pistols. I would like to see a Glock or M&P type pistol.
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Posted: 7/6/2014 6:20:21 PM EDT
[#6]
A Colonel is setting up his post retirement job as a "consultant".
that's all this is. |
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Posted: 7/6/2014 6:22:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A Colonel is setting up his post retirement job as a "consultant". that's all this is. |
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Posted: 7/6/2014 7:32:25 PM EDT
[#8]
I hope not. I had a Glock 21 for about a month one time. I couldn't wait to get rid of it .
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Posted: 7/6/2014 7:49:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope not. I had a Glock 21 for about a month one time. I couldn't wait to get rid of it . Whys that? Just curious. My 21SF has been great both in suppressed and suppressed. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 11:18:26 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The platform is ready for one. Much like the 18 has a selector, the same mechanism could be used to block or disconnect the trigger bar from the connector. Now that Glock has a USA factory the would surely be eligible to at least enter a pistol. However... We've all seen this before. To get the military to ditch the M9 and change calibers would be next to impossible. The cost involved to re-train, re-equip, ect would be prohibitive. The military will always modify an existing platform to update their needs over changing over. Just MHO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Which Glock will happily provide. The platform is ready for one. Much like the 18 has a selector, the same mechanism could be used to block or disconnect the trigger bar from the connector. Now that Glock has a USA factory the would surely be eligible to at least enter a pistol. However... We've all seen this before. To get the military to ditch the M9 and change calibers would be next to impossible. The cost involved to re-train, re-equip, ect would be prohibitive. The military will always modify an existing platform to update their needs over changing over. Just MHO. They've already made 17s with a manual safety for someone. I forget who though. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:18:02 PM EDT
[#11]
There is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm Nato. The crappy FMJ ammo and too big for what it is M9 that shoots it is the problem. Glock 17/19 with hot HP loads would be good to go.
AV1611 |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:55:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm Nato. The crappy FMJ ammo and too big for what it is M9 that shoots it is the problem. Glock 17/19 with hot HP loads would be good to go. AV1611 Yes but according to the Hague Conventions, hollow points are not good to go. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 6:09:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes but according to the Hague Conventions, hollow points are not good to go. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm Nato. The crappy FMJ ammo and too big for what it is M9 that shoots it is the problem. Glock 17/19 with hot HP loads would be good to go. AV1611 Yes but according to the Hague Conventions, hollow points are not good to go. As mentioned in the other multiple threads on this subject, the MIL does use HP in certain applications, so in theory, they could use it in any application. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 5:57:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As mentioned in the other multiple threads on this subject, the MIL does use HP in certain applications, so in theory, they could use it in any application. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm Nato. The crappy FMJ ammo and too big for what it is M9 that shoots it is the problem. Glock 17/19 with hot HP loads would be good to go. AV1611 Yes but according to the Hague Conventions, hollow points are not good to go. As mentioned in the other multiple threads on this subject, the MIL does use HP in certain applications, so in theory, they could use it in any application. I haven't seen it...other than state side with CID and other LE functions. OTM the same as pistol hollow point rounds as the hole at the meplat is just a remnant of the mfg process, and it's not designed to expand at all. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 6:13:33 AM EDT
[#15]
The biggest problem by far is far too limited training on any pistol! Both my deployments saw pistol carriers shoot less than 50 rounds prior to deployment often by people who never handled a pistol before. Keep what we have train people to shoot ( IMO every one issued a pistol needs to go through a training course equal to a basic gunsite or thunder ranch type course) the issue with the beretta failing is lack of care- I saw troops holster up pistols and not clean them for weeks at a time - and poor marksmanship that resulted in peripheral hits on bodies that would have had minimal greater effect if they were 44 magnums. Issuing a larger caliber will make this worse not better.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 6:31:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As mentioned in the other multiple threads on this subject, the MIL does use HP in certain applications, so in theory, they could use it in any application. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm Nato. The crappy FMJ ammo and too big for what it is M9 that shoots it is the problem. Glock 17/19 with hot HP loads would be good to go. AV1611 Yes but according to the Hague Conventions, hollow points are not good to go. As mentioned in the other multiple threads on this subject, the MIL does use HP in certain applications, so in theory, they could use it in any application. They use hollow points stateside in their handguns when (obviously) not in a combat role. We use the mk262 round in combat (which is a BTHP) not for better lethality, but for better accuracy. The mk262 was cleared by our lawyers to use. You will not see hollow point pistol rounds ever cleared for combat use. We legally can use them for 2 reasons: the first is that we are not fighting a conventional military and the second is that we never signed the expanding bullet clause of the hague convention of 1899. Regardless, there would be an uproar around the world if we became the first country to start using baby killer heat seeking expanding bullets of mass destruction. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 7:14:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
theyre not going to do anything Nopeand a Glock wont be considered. I see a P226 or P227 as a universal replacement for the M( and M11 if anything, maybe the P30 or HK45. But in reality they will stay with what they have. Look how long it took them to get out of the 1911. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 2:09:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Do they still require being able to pull the trigger a second time in case of a misfire?
That is probably the biggest problem with getting the G into service. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 9:47:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Until the government drops it's second strike capability requirement, Glock will not be in the running. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 10:14:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why do they value this feature? Any large LE agencies have this as a requirement? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Until the government drops it's second strike capability requirement, Glock will not be in the running. I'm not sure why it's important to them because it sure isn't important to me. Clearing the round makes more sense to me than hoping it'll go off the second time. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 1:30:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Beretta embarrassed the comrade obama administration and democrats by their leaving Maryland. This is nothing more than political payback for them costing a blue state a bunch of jobs.
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Posted: 7/10/2014 2:16:43 AM EDT
[#22]
I love the M9. Im not going to try to sing its praises or convince anyone. Ill just chalk it up to it being come kind of uncanny ergonomic match for me. There is no auto pistol I shoot as well as an M9. It makes me look like a super star even with the funny safety and long ass DA pull. Shit I even used to be pretty fast with the flap holster back in the day. Indian-arrow yadda yadda yadda.
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Posted: 7/10/2014 5:56:11 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure why it's important to them because it sure isn't important to me. Clearing the round makes more sense to me than hoping it'll go off the second time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Until the government drops it's second strike capability requirement, Glock will not be in the running. I'm not sure why it's important to them because it sure isn't important to me. Clearing the round makes more sense to me than hoping it'll go off the second time. No kidding. And it isn't as if they can do that on their rifles. If you pull the trigger on a M4 and it does not go boom, you identify and fix the problem. Why not the same training for the pistol? |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 6:04:15 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love the M9. Im not going to try to sing its praises or convince anyone. Ill just chalk it up to it being come kind of uncanny ergonomic match for me. There is no auto pistol I shoot as well as an M9. It makes me look like a super star even with the funny safety and long ass DA pull. Shit I even used to be pretty fast with the flap holster back in the day. Indian-arrow yadda yadda yadda. I have always shot well with the M9, so much so I normally use it as my gun I take to training classes. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 6:40:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless they have changed the requirement, back when they replaced the 1911, the replacement was required to have a manual safety. That was a big reason why the Glock was not even considered. I honestly think that, had Glock been considered and adopted, building manufacturing facilities in the US wouldn't have been a problem at all for Glock. If nothing else, in addition to having ~70% of the Police handgun market, they'd be able to brag that they were the official handgun of the US military. Quite a marketing tool. Another problem I have is with the caliber change proposal. When you talk about 9mm and .45 FMJ, there really isn't much difference. Both poke a hole, probably clear through the target. Neither will damage any tissue that they don't touch and, whether you believe that handgun ammo can cause temporary wound cavities, FMJ handgun ammo won't. In the end, it comes down to shot placement, like usual with handguns. Also, given that most military handgun training is absolutely pitiful, if you go to .45, you get a lot lower capacity, higher recoil, greater weight (both ammo and gun) and probably larger size of the gun itself. I'll be REALLY surprised if the military dumps 9mm for anything else. I might be able to see them getting away from Beretta, but I highly doubt they will move away from 9mm, if for no other reason than NATO compatibility. I'd LOVE to see them go with the G17, but I also highly doubt that they will. Bub75 Hey, now! There'll be none of that here...no rational posts, please!! 
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Posted: 7/13/2014 10:56:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). ISP changes their pistols like underwear. Not just the model and manufacturer, but calibers too. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 2:45:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ISP changes their pistols like underwear. Not just the model and manufacturer, but calibers too. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). ISP changes their pistols like underwear. Not just the model and manufacturer, but calibers too. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile From what I understand they had serious reliability problems with several issued 21s. I haven't had any problems with my 21s, but from speaking to guys that are still on the job, Glock really dropped the ball on this deal. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 3:53:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Fox News Article about the 9mm Beretta getting shelved Sounds like the Army is tired of 9mm...and Beretta... Time for a .45 caliber Glock to be considered....? Probably not. Too many people would shoot themselves. The Beretta 92 is a good gun, I think they should return to the frame mounted safety, issue the troops all Beretta made magazines, and supply it with tritium sights standard. There is nothing wrong with 9mm stopping power that jacketed hollowpoints can't solve, and the Army should stop playing nice. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 4:00:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Indiana State Police did just trade in all of their Gen 4 Glock 21's with N/S. I work for the distributor that handled the transaction, as well as the Pennsylvania State Police transaction. In both cases the Glock's were traded in for 227's. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 6:43:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Indiana State Police did just trade in all of their Gen 4 Glock 21's with N/S. I work for the distributor that handled the transaction, as well as the Pennsylvania State Police transaction. In both cases the Glock's were traded in for 227's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Indiana State Police did just trade in all of their Gen 4 Glock 21's with N/S. I work for the distributor that handled the transaction, as well as the Pennsylvania State Police transaction. In both cases the Glock's were traded in for 227's. Well that was...dumb |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 9:41:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why do they value this feature? Any large LE agencies have this as a requirement? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Until the government drops it's second strike capability requirement, Glock will not be in the running. Obviously not many, and none that I personally know of. Single strike, striker-fired guns are obviously very common in LE (i.e. Glock, XD, M&P) and then you have the 1911s. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 9:42:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They've already made 17s with a manual safety for someone. I forget who though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Which Glock will happily provide. The platform is ready for one. Much like the 18 has a selector, the same mechanism could be used to block or disconnect the trigger bar from the connector. Now that Glock has a USA factory the would surely be eligible to at least enter a pistol. However... We've all seen this before. To get the military to ditch the M9 and change calibers would be next to impossible. The cost involved to re-train, re-equip, ect would be prohibitive. The military will always modify an existing platform to update their needs over changing over. Just MHO. They've already made 17s with a manual safety for someone. I forget who though. I remember that now too. I think the rumors were it was for the Tasmanian police force or something like that. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 11:34:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M9 was a second rate pistol when if was adopted and is now hopelessly outdated. ANC you absolutely do need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol. The real question is who in their right mind would adopt a DA/SA pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They have a point about the deco I and accidentally engaging it if trying to clear a dal function. There is no need for a decode or safety on a double-single action pistol. Drop the decock/safety from the design and the M9 is a great pistol. The M9 was a second rate pistol when if was adopted and is now hopelessly outdated. ANC you absolutely do need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol. The real question is who in their right mind would adopt a DA/SA pistol. My personal opinion of it is that it is more reliable than glock and probably also as accurate or more accurate. it is large but nothing wrong with that for duty use. Most of the reliability problems the military experience are related to buying checkmate mags with springs made of a material you would swear is no more spring steel than a paperclip. If the dumbass magazine wont lift rounds the gun cant function, period. I used to shoot 12 guage hulls with my issue m9 @ 7 yards and it would hit about 80% of the time (whenever I shot properly) The stupid outdated thing about beretta is lack of night sights and a training doctrine that treats the decocker as also safety. If it was the decocker only model with tritium sights and beretta factory mags I doubt anyone would have bad things to say about it. If they could also add bushings like the combat guns, the beretta would then probably be the most accurate service pistol used anywhere in the world. |
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Posted: 7/15/2014 2:38:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Nope, late last year they started rolling out the Glock 21 Gen 4. Had issues and have now switched to the new 45 Sig. I can get details on the issues if you give me a little time. I know it was function issues, not an ergonomic issue. They are still transitioning as well. A lot of troupers are still carrying Glock 17's. |
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Posted: 7/15/2014 6:34:28 AM EDT
[#35]
I thought I had read in the past an interview w/ Gaston Glock asking him about why they won't add a manual safety for the trials. This was regarding last round of trials a couple years or so ago. Which was what drove the safeties to be added on striker guns that had no need for them (M&Ps, XDms, Taurus's, etc.). Anyway, Gaston had answered to the effect of "We don't need to add a manual safety on our pistol, we need to educate them as to why our Safe Action system is the better solution" or something to that effect.
I could be mistaken though. |
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Posted: 7/22/2014 9:56:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Fox News Article about the 9mm Beretta getting shelved Sounds like the Army is tired of 9mm...and Beretta... Time for a .45 caliber Glock to be considered....? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 2:32:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Marines have placed a 22.5 million Dollar order for 1911 style Colt 45's FDE color Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fox News Article about the 9mm Beretta getting shelved Sounds like the Army is tired of 9mm...and Beretta... Time for a .45 caliber Glock to be considered....? It was for up to 22mil, but in reality over the FYDP it will only be a little over 4mil |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:58:47 AM EDT
[#38]
The industry will end up wasting $$ and effort in chasing a bid program with no decisive result.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:47:13 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The industry will end up wasting $$ and effort in chasing a bid program with no decisive result. The joint pistol program was very good for the industry. I would assume the same about the MHS. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 6:59:16 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). no politics for PSP, I am on the border with them and interface with them regularly. They truly wanted to retain the G21 Gen4's but were having too many issues with them to keep them on the road. Went to the Sig P227. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 7:02:57 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: no politics for PSP, I am on the border with them and interface with them regularly. They truly wanted to retain the G21 Gen4's but were having too many issues with them to keep them on the road. Went to the Sig P227. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). no politics for PSP, I am on the border with them and interface with them regularly. They truly wanted to retain the G21 Gen4's but were having too many issues with them to keep them on the road. Went to the Sig P227. |
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