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Posted: 7/3/2014 6:45:04 AM EDT
[#1]
They have a point about the deco I and accidentally engaging it if trying to clear a dal function. There is no need for a decode or safety on a double-single action pistol. Drop the decock/safety from the design and the M9 is a great pistol.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 7:03:04 AM EDT
[#2]
This is a weird game the military likes to play. All pistol calibers sucks. If someone wants more lethality and accuracy than offered by the M9, they need to get a rifle and stop expecting a pistol to do what a rifle does. All this talk about replacing soldiers' secondary weapon. Look at what happened about all the talk about replacing their primary weapon. They are still carrying M4s. They will still be carrying M9s for years to come.
I might be wrong. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 7:13:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too).
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Posted: 7/3/2014 7:14:25 AM EDT
[#4]
+1 Good point.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 8:55:24 AM EDT
[#5]
So the military requires that the standard issue sidearm be chambered in a NATO round, so what comes after 9mm in NATOs book?
I remember reading an article way back when we were testing new pistols to replace the 1911, but I don't remember Glock in the running. I though I read that we required a manufacturer to have a factory on US soil, did Glock not get invited because of that? |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:08:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the military requires that the standard issue sidearm be chambered in a NATO round, so what comes after 9mm in NATOs book?  |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:09:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember reading an article way back when we were testing new pistols to replace the 1911, but I don't remember Glock in the running. I though I read that we required a manufacturer to have a factory on US soil, did Glock not get invited because of that? |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:25:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Unless they have changed the requirement, back when they replaced the 1911, the replacement was required to have a manual safety. That was a big reason why the Glock was not even considered. I honestly think that, had Glock been considered and adopted, building manufacturing facilities in the US wouldn't have been a problem at all for Glock. If nothing else, in addition to having ~70% of the Police handgun market, they'd be able to brag that they were the official handgun of the US military. Quite a marketing tool.
Another problem I have is with the caliber change proposal. When you talk about 9mm and .45 FMJ, there really isn't much difference. Both poke a hole, probably clear through the target. Neither will damage any tissue that they don't touch and, whether you believe that handgun ammo can cause temporary wound cavities, FMJ handgun ammo won't. In the end, it comes down to shot placement, like usual with handguns. Also, given that most military handgun training is absolutely pitiful, if you go to .45, you get a lot lower capacity, higher recoil, greater weight (both ammo and gun) and probably larger size of the gun itself. I'll be REALLY surprised if the military dumps 9mm for anything else. I might be able to see them getting away from Beretta, but I highly doubt they will move away from 9mm, if for no other reason than NATO compatibility. I'd LOVE to see them go with the G17, but I also highly doubt that they will. Bub75 |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:32:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Fox News Article about the 9mm Beretta getting shelved Sounds like the Army is tired of 9mm...and Beretta... Time for a .45 caliber Glock to be considered....? Nope. Enough people will bitch about the size. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 11:03:45 AM EDT
[#10]
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 11:06:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 11:10:29 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Which Glock will happily provide. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 1:26:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which Glock will happily provide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Which Glock will happily provide. The platform is ready for one. Much like the 18 has a selector, the same mechanism could be used to block or disconnect the trigger bar from the connector. Now that Glock has a USA factory the would surely be eligible to at least enter a pistol. However... We've all seen this before. To get the military to ditch the M9 and change calibers would be next to impossible. The cost involved to re-train, re-equip, ect would be prohibitive. The military will always modify an existing platform to update their needs over changing over. Just MHO. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 1:53:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Everyone keeps talking about cost to retrain. Are people that are issued pistols too stupid to look at an instruction manual and figure out how to operate it? Of they are already pistol qualified this would be an easy five minute hip pocket training.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 1:54:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everyone keeps talking about cost to retrain. Are people that are issued pistols too stupid to look at an instruction manual and figure out how to operate it? Of they are already pistol qualified this would be an easy five minute hip pocket training. It's the government. You literally have to have a training program to brush your teeth.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 3:14:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). That's a shame they couldn't replicate the previous Gen 21's . I wonder what the differences are to cause the malfunctions ? |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 3:26:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Instead of money on pistols spend the money on proper training- most soldiers training with pistol is almost nonexistent. True training like a gunsite or thunder ranch course for every pistol packer resulting in center mass hits is more important than a new gun or caliber that 98% of soldiers still can not hit with because they still do not get adequate training
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Posted: 7/3/2014 3:48:53 PM EDT
[#18]
If the military went to a 45 acp can you imagine the butthurt that would flow.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 5:29:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Instead of money on pistols spend the money on proper training- most soldiers training with pistol is almost nonexistent. True training like a gunsite or thunder ranch course for every pistol packer resulting in center mass hits is more important than a new gun or caliber that 98% of soldiers still can not hit with because they still do not get adequate training This is true, pistol training in the Army is awful. There is nothing wrong with the M9 when it is properly maintained. This is like Joint Combat Pistol program round 2. More wasted money on answers looking for a problem. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 5:40:07 PM EDT
[#20]
I always preferred the M11 myself
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Posted: 7/3/2014 5:41:07 PM EDT
[#21]
theyre not going to do anything
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Posted: 7/3/2014 5:45:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Until the government drops it's second strike capability requirement, Glock will not be in the running.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 6:03:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). What kind of malfunctions? I have never heard anything bad about the 21, I'd like to know what the story was. |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 6:04:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. They already have a model sporting a thumb safety.  Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/3/2014 6:16:50 PM EDT
[#25]
19 or 226 would be my guess. I don't see them moving away from 9mm, you would have to retool Lake City, lose NATO compatibility, etc.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 6:17:33 PM EDT
[#26]
I only own Glocks but I think if anyone wins the contract it will be FNH due to contracts in place now. I'.d go FNX 45 Tactical.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 7:28:10 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always preferred the M11 myself And hmmmm. No manual safety. whatttttt! |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 1:27:24 AM EDT
[#28]
You have to consider the Mililtary is issued full metal jacket ammo. No hollowpoints. So bigger bullets make bigger holes.
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Posted: 7/4/2014 3:48:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I only own Glocks but I think if anyone wins the contract it will be FNH due to contracts in place now. I'.d go FNX 45 Tactical. This. But it will probably be the regular FNX 45, not the tactical model. There's no need for raised sights and threaded barrel for regular troops. They might surprise everyone and go .40
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Posted: 7/4/2014 5:03:59 AM EDT
[#30]
Yeah, just like they replaced the M4, wait.
I'd bet necessary parts of my anatomy that Beretta isn't going anywhere and neither is 9mm... They talk this crap every few years and nothing comes of it. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 5:16:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Id love to see the military carry Smith & Wesson
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Posted: 7/4/2014 6:54:04 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Id love to see the military carry Smith & Wesson Um no. Unless its a K frame revolver. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 7:01:52 AM EDT
[#33]
I do believe the military needs to do a complete overhaul of his pistol/handgun specs and training. For those in charge concerned about needing an external safety, show them Larry Vickers Glock torture test and how it never fired or dropped the internal hammer/striker. In addition, if you are worried about more AD/ND on a firearm without a safety then that is a personnel and training issue. Hell the Brits have adopted the Glock 17 and gone so far as to allow their soldiers to carry a round in the chamber, a first for them.
I see a Gen 4 Glock 19 and or 17 being a good choice, considering the wide variety of different shooters the military has. Of course better ammunition other than 9mm FMJ would be a major plus, but that won't happen. The Gen4 9mm Glocks are good with the varied back straps (I keep the large beavertail backstrap on my G19 so the grip feels close to my Gen4 G21), plus 9mm is already in their supply, and more capacity because handgun rounds do suck so 6 center mass hits of 9mm ball is better than 3-4 hits with a .45 due to some not being able to control a .45 as well. Lastly, on the comment for the Gen4 Glock 21 having issues, I am not aware of them and would like to see some data for my own benefit. The only main issues I was aware of on the Gen4s were in 9mm with the recoil spring and that was fixed in that first year. In fact when I was researching for a new duty gun I settled on the Gen 4 21 because I couldn't find anything negative being said other than some not liking the size, but that is not an issue for me. Mine has never had a malfunction in close to 10,000rds over the past 2.5 years. My buddy finally had an issue in his and had to replace his recoil spring. It was at 10,000rds on the original spring and while the spring still worked as intended, it would no longer engage the barrel lug and caused the gun to bind up during disassembly. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 7:57:01 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Id love to see the military carry Smith & Wesson Agreed. M&P9 or M&P45. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 7:59:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Glock built a G21 for this
Picatinny rail and ambi mag release |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 8:01:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Fox News Article about the 9mm Beretta getting shelved Sounds like the Army is tired of 9mm...and Beretta... Time for a .45 caliber Glock to be considered....? As much as I lone my G21SF Gen3, it's still too large for most female hands. I doubt it would ever happen .. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 8:02:28 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What kind of malfunctions? I have never heard anything bad about the 21, I'd like to know what the story was. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). What kind of malfunctions? I have never heard anything bad about the 21, I'd like to know what the story was. PSP uses .45GAP last I knew... |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 9:56:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They have a point about the deco I and accidentally engaging it if trying to clear a dal function. There is no need for a decode or safety on a double-single action pistol. Drop the decock/safety from the design and the M9 is a great pistol. The M9 was a second rate pistol when if was adopted and is now hopelessly outdated. ANC you absolutely do need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol. The real question is who in their right mind would adopt a DA/SA pistol. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 9:58:46 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Enough people will bitch about the size. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Fox News Article about the 9mm Beretta getting shelved Sounds like the Army is tired of 9mm...and Beretta... Time for a .45 caliber Glock to be considered....? Nope. Enough people will bitch about the size. M&P .45. 
But a the 9 is good enough. 
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:02:07 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M9 was a second rate pistol when if was adopted and is now hopelessly outdated. ANC you absolutely do need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol. The real question is who in their right mind would adopt a DA/SA pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They have a point about the deco I and accidentally engaging it if trying to clear a dal function. There is no need for a decode or safety on a double-single action pistol. Drop the decock/safety from the design and the M9 is a great pistol. The M9 was a second rate pistol when if was adopted and is now hopelessly outdated. ANC you absolutely do need a decocker on a DA/SA pistol. The real question is who in their right mind would adopt a DA/SA pistol. I think the same retards enamored of the .308 have a fascination with a pistol having an external hammer on it. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:10:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree but the they require an external manual safety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. No they didn't. It was an unspecified option. The P226 and the 92F were the last 2 standing and the 92 won because it was slightly less expensive. The P226 didn't have a manual safety. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:17:45 AM EDT
[#42]
They should go back to the original colt 1911...
Go Retro! 
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:51:38 AM EDT
[#43]
The only way the gov picks any Glock is if it comes with the special manual safety.
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:52:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No they didn't. It was an unspecified option. The P226 and the 92F were the last 2 standing and the 92 won because it was slightly less expensive. The P226 didn't have a manual safety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. No they didn't. It was an unspecified option. The P226 and the 92F were the last 2 standing and the 92 won because it was slightly less expensive. The P226 didn't have a manual safety. Didn't they originally award the contract to Sig, but then reopen the bidding and award it to Beretta? |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:58:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 10:59:25 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't they originally award the contract to Sig, but then reopen the bidding and award it to Beretta? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't see the Army dumping NATO standard 9 MM. I think a Glock 19 or 17 would work very well in the US military. The 19 would be my choice, 15 round capacity, good size for everyday use by any size person in different jobs. I agree but the they require an external manual safety. No they didn't. It was an unspecified option. The P226 and the 92F were the last 2 standing and the 92 won because it was slightly less expensive. The P226 didn't have a manual safety. Didn't they originally award the contract to Sig, but then reopen the bidding and award it to Beretta? No idea. My point was that the manual safety requirement is a myth. |
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Posted: 7/4/2014 5:35:00 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't know about the G21 Gen 4. Indiana and Pennsylvania State police agencies have dumped it due to malfunctions (and I'm sure a little politics too). My resources say Indiana's was the G22 issued in '05 and replaced with G17 in '06 Maybe back then...I know for a fact (first hand from several state troopers) that they were using the .45 GAP Glocks as of 09-10...and Likely still are now. |
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Posted: 7/5/2014 6:23:21 AM EDT
[#48]
Can you imagine if they went with the 45 GAP?
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Posted: 7/5/2014 9:23:16 AM EDT
[#49]
Nothing will happen, the pistol so unimportant to the military that it just isn't worth the money to replace it.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/5/2014 2:12:52 PM EDT
[#50]
I don't understand why so many people think the military would NEVER adopt a pistol without a manual safety. Perhaps that was a huge factor decades ago, but I doubt its going to keep them from evaluating the Glock/M&P/etc. for the MHS contract. The Brits have gotten over it and adopted the G17 Gen4. Plenty of other NATO countries issue the Glock. Many US Special Forces units already use Glocks. Hell, we've been issuing the M11 (SIG P228) for decades and it doesn't have a manual safety either.
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