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Posted: 4/18/2010 8:55:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 9:11:18 AM EDT
[#1]
good read. its stuff like this that most people dont think about or train for.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 9:12:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 10:10:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:

My Gunfight - "Thinking Outside Your Box"

"Thinking outside your box"

"...Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong......"
by Larry Correia

I've been a concealed carry instructor for five years, I hang out with a bunch of gun nuts, and I've been around self-defense buffs for most of my adult life. In that time I've seen a recurring theme, and unfortunately it can be a dangerous one. Many of us have something in common.

I call it My Gunfight. We've imagined a scene, a violent encounter, in our head. And in this scene, we take decisive action and we prevail and save the day. Many of us have a mental fabrication of what My Gunfight is going to be like.

Most people who chose to carry a gun have done this. I have myself. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. In fact, it really helps develop a proper mindset to be able to realistically assess what kind of terrible things can happen to you and start laying some groundwork about how we want to respond.

The problem comes in when we make assumptions about My Gunfight.  
Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong.

I have had students tell me that they never practice at anything past conversational distance, because the average gunfight takes place at only seven feet. See, in Their Gunfight, the bad guy will be conveniently placed at a distance that they can actually hit stuff.

Sadly, there's no such thing as an average gunfight. The only thing they have in common is that they all suck. If you only prepare for a gunfight inside an elevator, it will be a bummer when the crazy guy starts shooting at you across the mall. I've had students tell me that if the assailant is that far away, then they wouldn't be justified in shooting. That's also a mistake. There are hundreds of reasons why you might need to shoot somebody out past conversational distance. And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to, you dang well better have practiced.

Another assumption I get from many students is that they will have plenty of time to draw their gun and get it into action. Oftentimes these folks want to carry with an empty chamber. There is a misconception that this is somehow safer, and besides in Their Gunfight, they'll have plenty of time, and both hands available, to get their pistol into action.

In real life, the bad guys may not be as compliant as the ones in Your Gunfight. In real life, the violence may occur so quickly that you do not have time to rack the slide. Or you may have one hand occupied holding the bad guy back from stabbing you in the head with a screwdriver. The point is, you won't know until it happens. Even best case scenario you've added a significant amount of time to your draw stroke (and if you've been in a fight to the death, you know that even a second is a significant amount of time), and one more chance to fumble and screw up.

During my regular class, I integrate a role-playing session. We go through several realistic scenarios with students and actors armed with rubber weapons. All of these scenarios are based on actual cases, and like real life, most of them tend to happen quickly.

Usually after going through the role-plays, nobody is tempted to carry chamber empty anymore. A fatal assumption was pointed out in Their Gunfight, and they adjust accordingly. If you're really worried about carrying with a loaded chamber, get a good, safe holster that keeps the gun secure and protects the trigger. If you still have a mental hang up, switch to a gun that has a heavier trigger or other safety devices. Anything is faster and safer than assuming you'll be in a position to rack a slide.

These are just a few examples of assumptions caused by My Gunfight.  
One of my personal favorite students of all time was hung up, not only on carrying chamber empty, but he also had a belief that he would "easily" be able to neutralize the bad guy by shooting them in the leg. No, I kid you not. He brought this up repeatedly during class, even after I pointed out that it could be just as fatal only slower, the same lethal force in the eyes of the law, and with the added benefit of not being nearly as effective at incapacitating an actual threat. What did I know? I was only the guy he was paying to teach him this stuff.

During the role-play, he was lucky enough to get a scenario that I use to demonstrate the principles of a Tueller drill. Without going into too many details, I'm playing the part of an obviously dangerous threat, interrupted in the act of committing a forcible felony on a third person, with the ability and opportunity to cause him serious bodily harm, and I just happen to start twenty-one feet away with a rubber knife.

I charged. He went for his gun. Not only did he fail to rack the slide and shoot me in the leg like he had talked about, he managed to draw the gun, fumble, and actually tossed it across the room. I stabbed him a few times, and as a happy bonus, picked his gun up before I fled the scene.

His Gunfight had not taken into account things like speed, adrenalin, or confusion. Last I checked, he was carrying a chamber loaded Glock, in a good holster, and practicing a bunch.

That was an extreme example, but I think all of us need to watch out for the decisions we make based upon our assumptions. Be smart, be realistic, and don't be afraid to keep an open mind. Just because My Gunfight makes sense to me, doesn't mean that the world cares one bit.

-Larry Correia is an author, firearms instructor, and one of the owners of Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns in Draper, Utah. FBMG is a gun store, specializing in self-defense needs, training, and full-line smithing.  

Their online store is at www.fbmginc.com. His first novel, Monster Hunter International, will be released by Baen Books in June 2009. The author can be reached at [email protected]
 


Excellent article. I'd like to expand on a few points, from my perspective and experience as a cop.

First, he talks about visualization. This is good mental training, as the author points out. I agree that when visualizing various scenarios, few of us visualize ourselves being shot, disabled, or otherwise being put at a disadvantage. This is something you should be prepared for and address in your training, via weak-hand drills, firing on your back, etc.

Second, carrying a handgun for personal defense with an empty chamber is stupid, period. In my career, I've seen how quickly a situation can go from routine to "OH SHIT!" A few times it happens so fast that it has taken me a second or two to realize what's happened––The bad guy circumvented my OODA loop. I am already at a disadvantage, so why would I purposely put myself further behind the curve with an unloaded gun? I had reservations about carrying with a round in the chamber before I became a cop, but never have I seen a gun shoot itself. I won't ever carry a handgun without a round in the chamber. If I don't feel confident enough in the gun to not shoot itself, then it's not a worthy choice for carry.

Too many folks who carry guns for defense, especially empty-chamber proponents, have never taken any force-on-force (FOF) training. If they had, they would see the fallacies of their decisions. Namely, 9 times out of 10 you will be shot, about 7 times out of 10 one or both of your hands/arms will be shot, and in every case your fine motor skills go out the window.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 12:18:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Great article and replies.  That's why I carry a .38spl for my EDC.  After seeing the video of the jewelry store owner who flubbed his draw and then could not remove the safety, get shot to slide lock by the robber, I realized that for a normal person simpler was better.  A couple of rounds on target first would have changed the outcome of that encounter.  Point and shoot. KISS.
Also, I realized that practicing drawing from concealment and firing,(with snap caps) about once a week helps.  Be sure to wear a shirt or coat as you would normally.  I wouldn't say I'm great, but am much improved in getting a firm clean grip since beginning practice.  I wish someone had a link for that video, it was in florida.  It needs to be seen about once every six months.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 12:24:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Strange.

I had an extremely vivid dream last night about a gunfight.  Late at night, bad part of town, assailant opens fire at several yards with a .22, while wearing body armor (and no shirt).

That's the first time I've ever had the "this trigger is hard to pull, why won't it go off?" syndrome in a dream.  The first round seemed to take forever to discharge, but the follow-up was fine.  I felt that I'd been struck, and the rest of the dream suddenly switched to a whole different scenario that no one ever discusses - what happens after the shots, but before cops arrive?  The attacker's friends were still around the scene, potentially hostile to me, and there was an overwhelming awareness that now I was truly vulnerable.  They could just as easily call EMS as finish me off out of anger or spite.

It'll always be the thing you never expect that gets you.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 12:36:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 1:15:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Great article and replies.  That's why I carry a .38spl for my EDC.  After seeing the video of the jewelry store owner who flubbed his draw and then could not remove the safety, get shot to slide lock by the robber, I realized that for a normal person simpler was better.  A couple of rounds on target first would have changed the outcome of that encounter.  Point and shoot. KISS.
Also, I realized that practicing drawing from concealment and firing,(with snap caps) about once a week helps.  Be sure to wear a shirt or coat as you would normally.  I wouldn't say I'm great, but am much improved in getting a firm clean grip since beginning practice.  I wish someone had a link for that video, it was in florida.  It needs to be seen about once every six months.


More excellent points!

In the past, I sometimes carried different guns––Glock, Kel-Tec, 1911, Sig P228. As I have carried pistols without manual safeties at work (Glock and S&W M&P), I found that I could not maintain a sutiable level of proficiency in manipulating so many different guns and their respective triggers, safeties, etc. I decided on carrying only the Glock (27) or the Kel-Tec, as both have a similar manual of arms. For me, simple is better.

You are correct to practice using the gun, holster, and typical clothing you would have during a personal defense encounter. A lot of people bring a tacticool thigh holster to the range to practice with and never use their IWB CCW holster during practice. That's something that can get you killed in an encounter. It's not as "cool" to train with your CCW/EDC gear, but it's essential if you want to prevail in a fight.

deleted by kpel308 over on TOS has a website (deleted by kpel308) in which he shows how he has integrated his CCW gear with his carbine setup. He's a big proponent of training with what you carry, and you might find some useful info over there.

Name of banned former ARFCOMmer and his website deleted to comply with SOP/CoC.  Sorry.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 2:39:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Good article but one thing everyone assumes in a gun fight even if they are victorious they never get shot.  It happens and their is a chance people are going to die.  After seeing combat, taking a few pieces of lead myself nothing I can say and no amount of training will prepare you enough for the day that real combat comes.  I cannot even begin to give you a single piece of advice that will prepare you to see and experience what will happen when the bullets get into the air and they are coming for you.  I hope no one has to ever experience that and go with God or whatever you believe in.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 3:26:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Good food for thought, SGB.

John Wayne 777 is right.......................should be required reading for everyone carrying a firearm, basically.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 3:33:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Good article but one thing everyone assumes in a gun fight even if they are victorious they never get shot.  It happens and their is a chance people are going to die.  After seeing combat, taking a few pieces of lead myself nothing I can say and no amount of training will prepare you enough for the day that real combat comes.  I cannot even begin to give you a single piece of advice that will prepare you to see and experience what will happen when the bullets get into the air and they are coming for you.  I hope no one has to ever experience that and go with God or whatever you believe in.


this.


getting out of the "my gunfight" thought process has lead me to the following conclusions, ymmv:
-5 rounds of an underpowered round out of a short barrel might not be enough.
-not all gunfights happen at short range
-you will probably end the fight on slidelock. if you have a smaller capacity gun like a 1911, carry more mags (practice reloading too)
-you may not have one* attacker
-you will not pick the encounter. "they" always do
-"it couldn't happen here" never saved anyone.
-the fight could happen at low light... get sights that work in that condition (maybe even carry a taclight)
-try basing your knowledge on the words of a world class small arms expert (ex: pat rogers, vickers), rather than some jackoff on the internet who tells you that you don't need to train or use quality equipment
-train weak side only. shit happens.
-purchasing a life saving device is not time to cut costs. (*in before the "do you drive a bentley?" strawman bullshit*)
-shoot your gun, don't just leave it in the safe.
-a gun in the hand > one at home
-pick a duty caliber like 9mm, .40, or 45, and get good ammunition for it.  they all work when you do your part. (9mm is the smallest i'd carry, truthfully)
-if you can't hit paper at close range with the 12lb DAO trigger on your gun, get a new platform or get a trigger job done (training will help, but there's a reason even a unit like delta is running a true #4lb trigger in their guns)
-if you're too stupid to use a manual safety, don't get a gun with one
-get a gun you can maintain. if you're not mechanically  inclined  or willing to learn about your platform, don't get a 1911.
-get quality mags and ammo.
-keep your gun clean.
-don't buy a gun simply because it's popular, or it was in X gun magazine, or on the cover of a video game, or it's the new kool aid - get it because you shoot it well and it's reliable.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 4:32:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Great read..
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 5:15:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Excellent read SGB.  This is basically what I was trying to get at when arguing against the "A Good Shoot Is a Good Shoot" motto in another thread last week.  Apparently in "Their Gunfight" it will always be ideal circumstances and there could never possibly be any doubt about what had transpired.

It was a good point too above about the OODA loop.  Why even bother with the OODA loop if "My Gunfight" is already predetermined and I'll be in full control.

I've been lucky enough to get to shoot on a live fire simulator at a local PD.  I learned how little I really knew about being a police officer (which I'm not BTW) and how quickly I found myself behind the curve in a few scenarios and how it affected my reaction when I really felt the extra pressure of being taken by surprise.  When I correctly predicted what was going to happen next my draw was smooth and I shot pretty well.  When I jumped to the wrong conclusion and was taken by surprise I fumbled the draw and shot like crap trying to make up time.  Jumping to conclusions got me, my partner and other innocents "killed".  I've learned to try not to jump to conclusions when assessing danger on the street.

The only time I've been in a situation where I really felt there was a good chance someone was going to get shot; events took twists and turns that were so surprising to me.  it was a real eye opener and was what prompted me to take my training much more seriously.  That was when I realized that "My Gunfight" was a complete fallacy and things would probably never go as planned in real life.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 7:39:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Trail By Fire.  The ultimate learning experience I learned my first taste of combat what I was made of.  When the lead was in the air the training will kick in but the training only will take you so far.  But the ones who have the training and the more the better because as training goes up the survival rate follows that curve very closely.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 8:13:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 8:50:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Great article.

I'm a BIG proponent of Force On Force.  
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 11:35:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Great read, SGB. Thanks!
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 5:51:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Love this forum because I always learn something when I come here.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 6:56:03 AM EDT
[#18]
as said above. train the way you carry, with what you carry. I don't believe in switching between gun platforms either. When I go the the range I practice everything  the way I carry every day. Everything, I draw, reload and re holster from concealment with my EDC gun. I see no point in doing anything else and adding unneeded muscle memory to my brain. The way I look at it, the more repetitions the better. hell, I very rarely even carry my other guns with me to the range any more because I don't want to get used to shooting them because I'm not gona carry them.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 7:24:10 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
as said above. train the way you carry, with what you carry. I don't believe in switching between gun platforms either. When I go the the range I practice everything  the way I carry every day. Everything, I draw, reload and re holster from concealment with my EDC gun. I see no point in doing anything else and adding unneeded muscle memory to my brain. The way I look at it, the more repetitions the better. hell, I very rarely even carry my other guns with me to the range any more because I don't want to get used to shooting them because I'm not gona carry them.


I agree with everything up til the red.  


Muscle memory is great for your EDC setup, but I still strongly believe you should be proficient with whatever other tools you may have.  


" I only use a claw hammer in my line of work, there is no need for me to know how to use a ball peen correctly"
Crappy analogy, but hopefully that gets the point somewhat across.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 9:23:32 AM EDT
[#20]
Good article. As others have said, having a set way in your mind that things will go and never practicing anything else is ludicrous. I try to practice drawing from concealment and my Safariland both, weak hand, one handed reloads, etc. People also need to be prepared for after the fight. When I got shot at my house I completely forgot about the medical stuff I had in my closet. Now I carry a pair of nitriles gloves at a minimum in my pocket every day.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 3:30:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
as said above. train the way you carry, with what you carry. I don't believe in switching between gun platforms either. When I go the the range I practice everything  the way I carry every day. Everything, I draw, reload and re holster from concealment with my EDC gun. I see no point in doing anything else and adding unneeded muscle memory to my brain. The way I look at it, the more repetitions the better. hell, I very rarely even carry my other guns with me to the range any more because I don't want to get used to shooting them because I'm not gona carry them.


I agree with everything up til the red.  


Muscle memory is great for your EDC setup, but I still strongly believe you should be proficient with whatever other tools you may have.  


" I only use a claw hammer in my line of work, there is no need for me to know how to use a ball peen correctly"
Crappy analogy, but hopefully that gets the point somewhat across.


I agree with being proficient with the tools you have, or at least the ones you may have to use. I use a 1911 for EDC and HD. I have some old wheel guns that I am talking about, that I used to carry to the range and no longer carry. They are old and in no way would I grab one out of the safe to do any thing other than putting holes in paper. If I need to get another gun out of the safe it is going to be a AR or a shotgun in a defensive situation. I  guess is what I am saying is, the "other" guns I was talking about, I dont consider to be tools. They are guns that I happen to have, but would never turn to them for anything other than a fun day at the rang with some one who has never shot guns and wanted to try several kinds.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 4:14:57 PM EDT
[#22]
excellent read. thanks for posting, SGB.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 4:43:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Great article, I pray often that I never have to draw my weapon(which is carried chambered)
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 8:57:36 PM EDT
[#24]
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if needed.

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 9:37:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if needed.

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


You come off as very young or very naive and boisterous.

Hunting is not self defense, never get them confused and never cross them. Bambi doesn't have a gun nor is he fueled by crack or methamphetamine. I've hunted since I was a small child, combat is totally different and the only thing that transferred across was marksmanship. That "Fuck you and your kids" garbage is just that: Garbage. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. If you don't have any warrior spirit you shouldn't even be carrying a gun. There have been 2 mass shootings within 10 miles of where I live in the past 19 years, one was the Luby's Massacre and the other was the Fort Hood shooting. 2 of the people killed in the Luby's shooting were family friends. Not really sure how I would have handled that situation unarmed, but I guarantee you I wouldn't be saying "Fuck you and your kids" while Hennard walked from table to table blowing the brains out of senior citizen's skulls while their families watched in horror from mere feet away.  The whole point of this writing was to humble us and to cause us to stop and reflect and realize our own errors in training. Bragging about how far away you can accurately shoot trees while walking around in the woods with a steady heart rate and zero adrenaline is the exact opposite of what you should be doing right now. Once you've BEEN in an actual gunfight whether while at the gas station or overseas you have the right to talk all that hot shit (it will still be annoying), but until then you should pipe down some and drop the macho "I've got it all figured out, guys" act.
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 2:27:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Great article. I hear multiple variations of 'my gunfight' at the range all the time, often by people I respect and consider friends. I forwarded the article via email to a three particularly close friends who are also shooting buddies. We have yet to meet up for our next regular shoot; I'm eager to see how the discussion will flesh out.
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 5:23:03 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if needed.

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


that's fantastic. I am so glad you are so much of a man that you can let innocent people die when you may have the ability to save them. Good for you, and people wonder why our society is falling apart.

Let me say this....if it were your kids or wife in danger I would help them in every way I could in your absence.......and I pray that if that if it is my family and I an not there, that a real man stands up for them......
Kane
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 7:05:25 AM EDT
[#28]
Steve is dead-on.

Statistically speaking, none of us "need" a gun for protection against violent crime because the odds of such an occurance are extremely low per capita. - Strike one... happened to me.

Something like 90% of all gunfights happen within 10' and 75% occur within distances of 5' so statistically, there is no need to waste time training on distances past 10'. Strike two... mine started around 20' and engaged past 75'-100'

More than one gun rag stated that a long gunfight is 3 rounds exchanged total, promoting the idea that spare mags are not necessary or likely to be used. - Strike 3... I restrained myself at 4 rounds while the SOB performed a 10+ round mag dump on us. With the spare mag I forgot, there would have been double that on my end and I'd have more rounds at hand to cover a safe exit.

Statistics analyze dead data, they're not tarot cards. Use them as such and it's likely that you become another sort of statistic.

Link Posted: 4/20/2010 7:24:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if needed.

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


Funny.  I was more concerned about my friends' safety than my own.

Between that and the rest of the drivel you posted, you've got a lot to learn.  I'll leave it at that for now.
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 7:31:21 AM EDT
[#30]
Excellent post and excellent thread.  I'm encouraged by the number of people on here who agree with it's sentiments!  It will just be a matter of time before some other thread has someone posting that they carry chamber empty or don't have to learn how to shoot past 21 feet because they will never have to shoot that far.  But at least for this moment, we seem to all be on the same page!
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 7:53:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 8:29:56 AM EDT
[#32]
I can agree with all of these points..........and the article is excellent



Quoted:
Quoted:
Good article but one thing everyone assumes in a gun fight even if they are victorious they never get shot.  It happens and their is a chance people are going to die.  After seeing combat, taking a few pieces of lead myself nothing I can say and no amount of training will prepare you enough for the day that real combat comes.  I cannot even begin to give you a single piece of advice that will prepare you to see and experience what will happen when the bullets get into the air and they are coming for you.  I hope no one has to ever experience that and go with God or whatever you believe in.


this.


getting out of the "my gunfight" thought process has lead me to the following conclusions, ymmv:
-5 rounds of an underpowered round out of a short barrel might not be enough.
-not all gunfights happen at short range
-you will probably end the fight on slidelock. if you have a smaller capacity gun like a 1911, carry more mags (practice reloading too)
-you may not have one* attacker
-you will not pick the encounter. "they" always do
-"it couldn't happen here" never saved anyone.
-the fight could happen at low light... get sights that work in that condition (maybe even carry a taclight)
-try basing your knowledge on the words of a world class small arms expert (ex: pat rogers, vickers), rather than some jackoff on the internet who tells you that you don't need to train or use quality equipment
-train weak side only. shit happens.
-purchasing a life saving device is not time to cut costs. (*in before the "do you drive a bentley?" strawman bullshit*)
-shoot your gun, don't just leave it in the safe.
-a gun in the hand > one at home
-pick a duty caliber like 9mm, .40, or 45, and get good ammunition for it.  they all work when you do your part. (9mm is the smallest i'd carry, truthfully)
-if you can't hit paper at close range with the 12lb DAO trigger on your gun, get a new platform or get a trigger job done (training will help, but there's a reason even a unit like delta is running a true #4lb trigger in their guns)
-if you're too stupid to use a manual safety, don't get a gun with one
-get a gun you can maintain. if you're not mechanically  inclined  or willing to learn about your platform, don't get a 1911.
-get quality mags and ammo.
-keep your gun clean.
-don't buy a gun simply because it's popular, or it was in X gun magazine, or on the cover of a video game, or it's the new kool aid - get it because you shoot it well and it's reliable.


Link Posted: 4/20/2010 2:41:00 PM EDT
[#33]
I've hunted things that bite back.
I don't have kids,don't want them,probably have a wife and that's it.
.............
........................

And that's all I'm going to say,I can see you won't agree and I don't want to fight,except this:

A "warrior" is a one who fights for the good of the whole,they are the model of what Americans love and they defend values....they also come back in boxes,a lot.

A "Killer" just does what needs done,nothing more,lives of innocents doesn't come into play only survival,killers are scary to most Americans because they don't follow the heard and tend to stay in the shadows and they have no compunctions about taking a life,they also generally have no sides and this makes them more frightening.
Good killers only let the ability out when they have to defend themselves or loved ones,bad ones do it for fun.

I'm in my 30's,no kid,and I'll give you one guess what I am......the good kind.

I'll bow out now,I have no more place in this discussion.

Link Posted: 4/20/2010 3:50:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
I've hunted things that bite back.
I don't have kids,don't want them,probably have a wife and that's it.
.............
........................

And that's all I'm going to say,I can see you won't agree and I don't want to fight,except this:

A "warrior" is a one who fights for the good of the whole,they are the model of what Americans love and they defend values....they also come back in boxes,a lot.

A "Killer" just does what needs done,nothing more,lives of innocents doesn't come into play only survival,killers are scary to most Americans because they don't follow the heard and tend to stay in the shadows and they have no compunctions about taking a life,they also generally have no sides and this makes them more frightening.
Good killers only let the ability out when they have to defend themselves or loved ones,bad ones do it for fun.

I'm in my 30's,no kid,and I'll give you one guess what I am......the good kind.

I'll bow out now,I have no more place in this discussion.



Link Posted: 4/20/2010 4:11:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if needed.

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


Funny.  I was more concerned about my friends' safety than my own.

Between that and the rest of the drivel you posted, you've got a lot to learn.  I'll leave it at that for now.


I was wondering when you would chime in. I have trouble recognizing your current avatar LOL.

Kaiser, I won't attack you or your theories, as that would be rude. I will say however (as one who speaks from actual experience) that your perspective will change if you are (God forbid) ever involved in a deadly force encounter. I appreciate your input, and I may have had some of the same thoughts/opinions prior to being involved in numerous encounters of my own. I do encourage you to research available material from those who have BTDT, so that you may learn from others' mistakes, instead of following in their footsteps.
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 6:21:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:


I was wondering when you would chime in. I have trouble recognizing your current avatar LOL.



Sorry I was late.

Regarding the post that we were commenting on, you and several others on this site have had the misfortune to have been in one of these situations and the good fortune to have survived.  You know how it feels and that it's not anything like hunting.  As someone posted in the thread in GD, unless you've been there, I don't know that you could ever fully realize what it's like.
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 7:53:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if need

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


Funny.  I was more concerned about my friends' safety than my own.

Between that and the rest of the drivel you posted, you've got a lot to learn.  I'll leave it at that for now.


What the hell do you know about gun fights?


Good article and comments except two.



Link Posted: 4/21/2010 12:54:40 AM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 4:25:02 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if need

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


Funny.  I was more concerned about my friends' safety than my own.

Between that and the rest of the drivel you posted, you've got a lot to learn.  I'll leave it at that for now.


What the hell do you know about gun fights?


Good article and comments except two.





I saw one on TV once.  
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 6:53:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Be ready for anything.  Yes.. and get plenty of sleep, exercise, and eat your vegetables.  I don't think most of us limit our shooting to 7 yards.  It gets boring.  However, just shooting at varying distances doesn't seem much of an answer.  Allow me to be cynical for a moment:

1.  It's not like there are lots of choices in ranges.  Most of our forum brethren are tied to indoor ranges where building real world self defense marksmanship skills can be more challenging.  No, they won't move the partitions or let you try out some cool moves involving urban prone.  No, they won't lower the lights.  And most really prefer you don't draw and fire.

2. How many centerfire rounds do we think most shoot per year *other* than weaver stance?  We're squared off at the paper: some 7 years, some 50 feet, and a few at 25 yards until reminded that it's harder than it looks.

3. What percentage of non-LEO, non-military around here have actually been in training situations where they must fire under real stress (i.e. instructor or curriculum induced as a substitute for real world)?  It's expensive and time consuming and assumes availability in your area.  I would guess under 10% but that is certainly pure speculation.  I've heard informed people note that it's night and day and that you need muscle memory and lots of training to fall back on.  So without training with stress, is it all internet chat?  What do you do if you don't have access or the fiscal wherewithal?  Many practice drawing, clearing, and stance at home but how far does this go?  Maybe it's just Darwinian.  No real training: get out of the gene pool.

I'm lucky to live in a place where I belong to a gun club where I can move and set up various targets at various ranges and actually improve some skills.  Of course, with me setting up drills on my own at the range I might be more of a danger to myself than any potential adversary.  Don't know any real instructors.  Doesn't sound like any fun being in a class with a bunch of spry LEO/military types.  In 'My Gunfight' I envision grabbing my M&P9c from the quality IWB holster and it flying from my grasp because it's not like you practiced in your living room.  Of course if I get it out in time and don't drop it, I'm hell on wheels from a weaver stance at 50 feet.

Here is what I think we need:  Inexpensive courses for the rest of us.  Over 50.  Not terribly fit.  Crappy eyesight.   Interests other than tactical.  Fire less than 1000 centerfire rounds/year.  (I may shoot more but the folks in my CCW class don't even come close).  Safety training first (amazing how non-gun types handle firearms).  Then home drills on drawing their weapon and getting it pushed out in the right direction.  Then some basic range safe gun handling and marksmanship.  And *then*, finally, some self defense training that will make them a formidable, or at least competent, adversary.  And did I mention inexpensive?



.

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 10:01:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Be ready for anything.  Yes.. and get plenty of sleep, exercise, and eat your vegetables.  I don't think most of us limit our shooting to 7 yards.  It gets boring.  However, just shooting at varying distances doesn't seem much of an answer.  Allow me to be cynical for a moment:

1.  It's not like there are lots of choices in ranges.  Most of our forum brethren are tied to indoor ranges where building real world self defense marksmanship skills can be more challenging.  No, they won't move the partitions or let you try out some cool moves involving urban prone.  No, they won't lower the lights.  And most really prefer you don't draw and fire.Yes, that a tough reality for many of us. A little ingenuity can help here: get an accurate airsoft replica and some carboard and set up a range in your backyard, or even in your house when the wife and kids aren't home. Dry fire as much as you can. Find a gun-friendly friend who has private land.

2. How many centerfire rounds do we think most shoot per year *other* than weaver stance?  We're squared off at the paper: some 7 years, some 50 feet, and a few at 25 yards until reminded that it's harder than it looks.I rarely do any stationary handgun shooting anymore. I try to think of the most awkward stance/postion and do some shooting from there. Kneeling, supine, on my side, around my car.

3. What percentage of non-LEO, non-military around here have actually been in training situations where they must fire under real stress (i.e. instructor or curriculum induced as a substitute for real world)?  It's expensive and time consuming and assumes availability in your area.  I would guess under 10% but that is certainly pure speculation.  I've heard informed people note that it's night and day and that you need muscle memory and lots of training to fall back on.  So without training with stress, is it all internet chat?  What do you do if you don't have access or the fiscal wherewithal?  Many practice drawing, clearing, and stance at home but how far does this go?  Maybe it's just Darwinian.  No real training: get out of the gene pool.Well, doing something is better than doing nothing. Yes, professional training is often expensive, but there are ways to obtain training for free or at reduced cost: Look in the monthly gun rags, like "Combat Handguns" and GWLE––they often have training drills in each issue that anyone can set up and execute. Befriend your local LEO firearms instructor, or a SWAT guy. (I don't wanna hear "never invite the man into your life" LOL.) Join a local LE reserve unit––I know several reserve LEOs that are exceptional shooters, and they further their training for free through this avenue. They get the same FOF, active shooter, and firearms qualifications training as FT LEOs. As for your comments in red, I'd say from personal experience that's generally true––Everybody's a hero until sugar turns to shit. I can tell you (from personal experience) that you do not "rise to the occasion"; you default to your level of training.

I'm lucky to live in a place where I belong to a gun club where I can move and set up various targets at various ranges and actually improve some skills.  Of course, with me setting up drills on my own at the range I might be more of a danger to myself than any potential adversary.  Don't know any real instructors.  Doesn't sound like any fun being in a class with a bunch of spry LEO/military types.  In 'My Gunfight' I envision grabbing my M&P9c from the quality IWB holster and it flying from my grasp because it's not like you practiced in your living room.  Of course if I get it out in time and don't drop it, I'm hell on wheels from a weaver stance at 50 feet.Again, there are plenty of CCW friendly LEOs who are willing and able to provide instruction and advice to private citizens, provided they know you well. Also, your tone indicates that you might be intimdated being amongst a bunch of cops. Don't be––there are more cops that can't shoot worth a damn than CCW'ers that can't shoot.Trust me.

Here is what I think we need:  Inexpensive courses for the rest of us.  Over 50.  Not terribly fit.  Crappy eyesight.   Interests other than tactical.  Fire less than 1000 centerfire rounds/year.  (I may shoot more but the folks in my CCW class don't even come close).  Safety training first (amazing how non-gun types handle firearms).  Then home drills on drawing their weapon and getting it pushed out in the right direction.  Then some basic range safe gun handling and marksmanship.  And *then*, finally, some self defense training that will make them a formidable, or at least competent, adversary.  And did I mention inexpensive?Well, I have read several articles in police/gun magazines that have a 50-round course of fire to maintain proficiency. I have never been able to make it to the range more than twice a month, but I try to squeeze every ounce of training I can out of each shooting session. There are courses such as you describe available; you just have to seek them out. Also, age and fitness level play a role in nearly every aspect of self-defense. That's part of being prepared––being in decent shape (at least for your age). It would be a disservice to design a self-defense course that didn't get your heart pumping or get you sweating at some point, because that's exactly what's gonna happen in a deadly force encounter. Reality-based training works, plain and simple.



.



You brought up some really good points, and I've included my thoughts in blue above.

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 12:14:59 PM EDT
[#42]
There have been some very intellegent responses here. The article was good. We can all (safely) benefit from the experience of those that have been there. Few things ingrain themselves on a memory like the sound of a bullet zipping by your head. Untill you've been there, one can only speculate as to how they will react. Train, practice and keep aware of your surroundings. The results if you don't (...and sometimes if you do) at the very least, hurt like hell.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 12:49:06 PM EDT
[#43]
great thread
Link Posted: 5/1/2010 7:48:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I carry my pistol everyday out in the woods,and I have shot stuff with it,so I have no illusions of what it can or can't do.
I CAN hit your stupid ass out past fifteen yards with a 642,granted I'd rather duck out an exit if it gets crazy and not stick around and fight if you're that far away.
I carry at least two reloads,often more,nothing sucks worse then running out of shells,learned that hunting NEVER again,for a 642 it's two speed loaders and an ammo wallet.
I don''t have a "my gunfight" fantasy,I run different ideas through my mind but I accept a gunfight is close to perfect chaos,best thing is to keep your eyes wide open and try to find cover fast
I'm not here to save you,the gun is for me and my own,so sorry but fuck you and your kids.
Being aware of your surroundings and knowing where the fucking exits are can be just as important as a gun,you see it coming do an "exit stage right" post haste.
If you're not sure you can kill someone you've already lost,not many take this into consideration,I have no qualms about killing as I've done it enough in the hunt and a human is no different then an animal and I feel THEY made me have to shoot them so it wouldn't bother me.
Never think it'll take one shot,keep shooting until the asshole stops,reloads are fine if needed.

Just my rules on this,you may see it differently.


Funny.  I was more concerned about my friends' safety than my own.

Between that and the rest of the drivel you posted, you've got a lot to learn.  I'll leave it at that for now.

+1

I'm not talking about going for hero status or recognition. I realize other folks priorities are different. Everyone is selfish to one extent or another. That is fine. If you want to turn and run, I do not blame you.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Evil bit but did not triumph on that day as Justin fought back. Don't tell him but he's a hero.
Link Posted: 5/1/2010 7:54:33 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What the hell do you know about gun fights?


Good article and comments except two.





I saw one on TV once.  

You busted up your hand punching the TV in anger, right?
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