Had I been there 1/2 hour earlier it could have happened while I was in line.

The report says that a male showed a holstered pistol to the clerk, demanded money and then fled in his car.

So my question is, had I been behind this guy in line, what rights do I explicitly have being a lawful ccw holder?  The perp didn't point the gun at anyone, maybe it wasn't even real, no one will know.  So, lets say though, Mr hypothetical sees whats going down in front of him, he pulls his revolver now what? What happens if God forbid the perp gets shot, did Mr hypothetical provoke the exchange?  I say God forbid because I would never actually want to be in that situation, but so easily it almost came to fruition this morning.

What if the perp gets shot, and it turns out he had nothing in the holster after all? Not saying that anyone would unload on a guy who only presents the persona that he indeed harbors ill intentions and weapons or a means meant to harm a store clerk that is.

Makes me think about what could have happened. My wife and I both carry. Look up, see the "empty your pockets" ccw rigs pic thread...I started it. First time in as many years that ive ever been near to the deed if you know what I mean.  Makes me think; makes me wonder.  If they were more like you and me, this kind of thing would have a different tone in the news.

Thoughts?

Matt

Depends on state law and how liberal your area is.

In Kentucky when defending yourself it's ruled on the situation as it appears.

When defending others it's the situation as it really is. (Breaking up fights, accidentally shooting a undercover LEO ,etc)


Find a class with lawyers and local state police to talk. They do have them.

once the perp's gun comes out of holster or pocket or wasteband, you're in a justifiable situation.

If the gun wasn't drawn I wouldn't have done anything, not my problem. Gun drawn, suddenly my life is endangered, everything changes.

One could argue that when the perp brandished the holstered weapon his intent was to intimidate intent of serious bodily harm or death.  In that situation it would be reasonable for an armed citizen to intervene with a show of deadly force.  What happens from there is up to circumstance.  If it were me as an off duty LEO in that situation, I would have drawn down.  The most important thing to do in a situation like that is to "act reasonably".

This is the best response. Every state is different in how the laws are written.

I had to think on this a while. He never had the gun out, asked for money, clerk gave it to him, and he left. Let the police go after him from there. If he would have drawn the gun, I'd have shot him dead. Thanks for posting this. Gave me something to think about.

This.

"Officer, he flashed his holstered weapon, so I emptied my mag into him".  That would go well in court, I'm sure.

Whatever your story is, it better jive with what the cops are going to be looking at on the security footage.

Like the lawyer on Personal Defense Network says.  You better be prepared to spend 100k in legal fees if you choose to pull the trigger.
If the perp isn't killing anyone, they can take the money and leave.  I'm not a LEO.

Why the face? It may not be $100K but it's gonna be in the several tens of thousands if they decide to prosecute.

Cheers!
-JC

Back in the day when I was on Glocktalk all the time " hey I said it was back in the day " !
There was a guy named Big John on there. Now Big John was into IPSC shooting etc.

Well apparently he was in a gas station outside of Indianapolis one day and while inside
there was a guy holding up the place. Big John decided to TRY to pull his weapon on said
bad guy. Well needless to say .... All the IPSC training etc. didn't work that day as Big John
is no longer with us.

So I guess what I'm saying is .... You only have that split second to think about is it worth it ?

By the way his name was John Carney & he was a insurance investigator.
I never meet the man in person but we had some conversation over the phone about
everything that had to do with Glocks. He really seemed like one stand up guy !

RIP
JC

Me too.

Exactly
He could have been reaching for his wallet and had his shirt pulled up too far

You are not a LEO because you have a CCW

I would not pull in that situation, but I would be ready to. The gun only comes out if it looks like his is about to or it already has. Even then, the legal aftermath would break me, I'm sure.

Depends on your state law and your county attorney.

In Arizona (where I am) you can legally use deadly force to prevent any "forcible felony" and armed robbery certainly counts.

What is LEGAL and what is WISE are different things of course.

It is ALWAYS better to be a good witness than to be George Zimmerman.  If you can avoid shooting someone and just be a witness everyone goes home alive and some worthless paper was stolen.  Never try to be a hero but if the gun comes out and is pointed at someone at that point if you can go live without a risk to yourself or others around you then you are justified.  Also it helps to be able to read people does the guy look desperate like he just wants his next fix, or does he look like he is all in ready to start shooting and killing people for the fun of it?  Are you risking escalating the situation from just a snatch and grab to a shoot out?  Who is in the store (15 pregnant women buying peanut butter and pickles or is it empty)?

So much has to be considered because it can honestly go wrong for you real fast if the guy has the drop on you.

If you want some good info watch those First Person Defender shows on YouTube they give you an idea how some make the wrong choice or go live at the wrong time and the situation goes bad quick with just a little more info they have a better outcome.  Remember this always in a gun fight their is a high likelihood you will get shot yourself.

Generally speaking defense of property is a very weak justification for the use of deadly force, even in the most permissive states and in many states deadly force is not considered to be a justification for use of deadly force.   Defending someone else's property?  That falls in the PFS category.

Defense of others isn't much better as you more often than not don't know exactly what is going down.   For example you shoot some guy trying to pull a girl away from a woman in the local Wal-mart packing lot.  Then you find out he was the custodial parent and she had kidnapped the kid from him and he was just trying to get her back.  You're now looking at 25 to life for being not so smart.  

In the stab and grab example you posed, I agree with the others that unless the perpetrator actually produces a weapon and presents a threat to someone, you're not in a position to shoot anyone and call it justified.  Even then, you're relying on defense of others for a defense - and you be very sure that will fly in your state before you even think about shooting. You're on much firmer ground if you're in fear of your own life.

Just as a side note to share a story of how crazy folks can be in MS. Once upon a time when I lived in the pleasant city of Jackson, MS (sarcasm) a thug from Jackson went a little north to Madison, MS. Madison is nice town with lots brick roads and sidewalks and fancy stores with stuff I don't care about.  So he goes there and car jacks a guy at gun point. The man called the cops gave a statement... and then he called a buddy. They proceeded to ride around town looking for his car. Well they found the car with the assailant in it talking on the phone bragging about how he just stole the car from some stupid ass white boy. So this guy, knowing that the guy in his car is armed, without warning, just draws a pistol and shoots him dead. The police come, aaannnddd the mayor comes. The lady who is the mayor there took a strong stance about "those thugs from Jackson coming into her city." She told the police not to arrest the man, that in MS your car is an extension of your home so this was the same as if an armed felon entered your home, and the man was within his rights to shoot him. Nothing ever happened to him. Don't recommend trying this at home, and this was pre-Trayvon/Michael Brown/Obama's Sons. But you know that lady gets re-elected all the dang time.

I bet Kenny Stokes didn't like that one little bit.

I don't recommend trying that, even in a castle doctrine state.  

In many states the castle doctrine does extend to your vehicle, but it's in the sense of you or your family being drug out of your vehicle.  In that case the use of deadly force is normally allowed as there's always some doubt as to whether the motive is to just steal the car, or whether there are additional felonies in mind such kidnapping your children, raping your spouse, etc.  

However once your car has been stolen, and there is no longer an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to you or your family, the legal justification to shoot the guy stealing your car (or in this case the guy who stole your car just sitting in it bragging about it) has evaporated, it's now just a property crime, and if your state does not allow the use of deadly force to defend your property, then you're in deep legal shit.  

In states that do not have a castle doctrine, the same logic applies. For example, you can generally shoot someone in the act of breaking into your home as it's generally assumed the intent may be rape, aggravated assault, kidnapping, murder, etc.   However, if you wake up in the middle of the night and find a burglar carrying your flat scree TV towards the back door, your grounds for shooting are much less solid, as it could be assumed that the intent is just to steal your TV.  Physical force is generally acceptable to prevent a property crime, and of course if you try to use physical force to prevent the burglary and the thief pulls a knife, or some other weapon, or otherwise presents a imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, the justification to use deadly force my now be in play.

That's the essence of the Zimmerman/Martin case.   No matter how moronic Zimmerman was in following Martin, once Martin starting slamming his head into the concrete, he posed an imminent threat and created a situation where Zimmerman could legally shoot him.    

Pretty much what I think as well. In NC we have castle doctrine, but shooting a guy point blank when HE was in YOUR car, even though he stole it, isn't exactly what the doctrine is about. Your life wasn't in any imminent danger at that point, you went looking for a fight and found it.

<-- Not a lawyer

To play devil's advocate:

In the OPs scenario, I'm guessing that the perp, upon being caught, would be charged with armed robbery. He presented a gun to the cashier to compel her to give him the money. As I read it, he clearly threatened the cashier with death or serious bodily harm if she didn't comply, and I doubt a prosecutor would see it very differently than if he had pulled the gun and pointed it. What if he just held the gun but didn't point it at her? What if he pointed it at her but his finger wasn't on the trigger? My point is, I think this would be seen as armed robbery, and in some states you can use deadly force to prevent or resist.

Not that drawing is the right thing to do necessarily, just looking at it like I imagine a defense attorney would.

Still not an attorney.

We need to get that shit changed, pronto.  Dead thieves are good thieves.



 

As already stated, legally it all depends on your state and courts in the area. Personally, in that situation just be a good witness. Don't try to be a hero. If your life and/or someone else's is not in immediate danger, keep it that way. If your/someone else's life is in immediate danger... Do what needs to be done to be safe.

Gun wasn't brandished. Try to get yourself in a good tactical position stay clear headed and be a good witness. Robber's gun comes out and the game is on, from there it's all decision time based on the unfolding situation.

Did you pay attention in your CCW class?

Be a good witness.  Get a good look at the guy and what he was wearing and driving.  I agree unless his gun was out mine wouldn't be either.

MAHA

In Florida, that would be a robbery. Robbery is a forcible felony. Anyone may use deadly force to terminate a forcible felony. Good shoot in Florida.

PS: IMO, all robbers are murderers. Most of them build up to it over time, but every last one of them values money over life and if pushed will take life to get money. I think that any robber caught in the act should be subjected to deadly force.

I'm an LEO in Ohio.  Depending on your local jurisdiction it would have probably been a good shoot.  If the clerk or owner of the store did it I would think it would be unquestioned as a good shooting.  The way things are right now with us and our current training I'd have to say I would not shoot under those circumstances.  I would have been at low ready for sure.  Be a good witness, let the threat subside, and live to tell the story.  Now if the robber had a weapon in hand I would have shot without question.  



Most jurisdictions are rather sympathetic to ordinary folks just wanting to get through their lives without a hassle or violent crime.  It pays to know your local circumstances with regard to the legal system and to remember that elections have consequences.  



 

You can't shoot  your way out of a lawsuit, but you sure can shoot your way into one.

 
This. ^^^

I dont feel like being drug though the courts for a hundred bucks from a gas station drawer. If the gun is out he could as easy try and shoot me so that's a different case.

Situations have a funny way of playing out, most of the time not like you envision. You might imagine you draw your gun, order the perp to the ground and drop his weapon. He might look like he's compiling and then just turn and kill you and the attendant. If you or your families life isn't in immediate danger, then avoid it if possible. Lets not forget all the legal hassle and fees, possible lawsuit if you do end up killing the scumbag over seventy five dollars or whatever was in the register.

"Order the perp to the ground...?"  No freaking way.  I'm an LEO and I wouldn't do that unless I had handcuffs at the ready and more of my buddies on the way.   I'm not piling on you but that point your making really needs to be made.  





Sad to say but in today's society I'd have to say "Not my monkey.  Not my circus." unless there was a clear danger of death or serious bodily harm that I could articulate in a clear and rational manner.  And then I'd be well past the point of trying to make an arrest and on to another level of force entirely.  





 

Those are tough situations and I once found myself in such a predicament. It was 2009ish and I was working for a business that I did a route service. While I had previously been a MP in the Army, I didn’t quite have the policing experience I have now.  I often stopped at 8:00A.M. in a little stop and rob for coffee and a pastry. I was on the opposite corner of the store as the register with the man working that I knew well. The door opened and over the shelves I see a young turd walk in and approach the counter. He quickly stepped back and looked at me. I could tell the man working was nervous as he was sweating and turning red. We all stood there looking at one another for what felt like 10 minutes but I seriously doubt it was longer than a minute. Looking back, I don’t know how I could have convinced a jury that I knew this was a robbery but I knew that it was. I could have escaped out a door that was ten feet away and I believe that is what the turd was expecting me to do. Instead, I side stepped the opposite direction for better cover as my hand was already on my LCP drawing it from my pocket. I remember thinking, “Damn, I wish I had a real pistol”. Something clicked in the little turd’s brain; I believe he realized he did not have the upper hand and that he had no tactical advantage. He could not watch us both, he couldn’t see what I had behind the shelf, he couldn’t see the clerk, and most of all he knew I did not take the escape route. The little piece of crap bolted for the door, tripping over his sagging britches while running across the parking lot.

The clerk and I both caught our breaths and let our heart beats return to normal. There had been a conversation, but I never heard it. The police did respond fairly quickly and of course saw no reason to investigate. A crime had not been committed. I would later learn that clerk and the store was a known drug supplier, but it was basically just pot and pills. In fact, one of my future coworkers had flipped the clerk as an informant. I wonder to this day if the event wasn’t a drug deal interrupted by me.

I learned a lot from that day. I learned to try and carry a bigger gun whenever possible. But most importantly I learned that a situation may not be what you think it is. There were cameras in the store that day, but I know that cameras generally only tell 15% of the truth and they are great at revealing stuff that your eyes never saw.

It depends on a variety of factors.  The two most important being your state laws, and your local criminal justice system (notably cops and da).

State laws, in Colorado, felony menacing is putting some one in fear of death or serious bodily injury by use of a real or simulated deadly weapon.  IMO flashing a holstered gun to get the clerk to hand over the money meets the elements of the crime. There is, imo, a likely risk of death or serious bodily injury to the clerk. So if you capped his ass and I catch the call, I would be not be charging you.

Whether or not the investigator who takes over the case (most likely while you are still on scene.) or the DA filing the case agrees with me, or the grand jury he pawns it off on to keep from having to make a decision and take responsibility for doing so,  is a whole 'nother can of worms.

There is another option to capping his ass.  That is draw down and issue verbal commands.  I would do that as I get a pay check to suck bullets so an at best, apathetic public doesn't have to do so.  However, doing the drop the weapon routine increases your chance of catching a bullet.  I take that risk because I take that paycheck.  I am required to by policy, and more importantly, I feel morally obligated to do so (taxpayers buy me ammo and send me to lots of firearms related schools, in addition to paying me to suck bullets.  Additionally, state law gives me the power to act on any crime committed in my presence anywhere in the state.  I feel that comes with an equal responsibility to do so.).  

You do not have those obligations, moral, legal or policy.

Ultimately, it is a judgment call that has no cut and dried answers for the majority of people.  In our current society, I would say if his gun stays holstered be a good witness is the safest bet.  Getting shot for 50K a year plus a ira and crappy health care and workmans comp would suck, but I cash the paycheck I take the lumps and the county is paying for my attorney.  Getting shot for what is in some one else's cash register is gonna suck a lot worse.

I am sorry for his loss.  I will disagree on your comment of you only have a split second.  You have all the time in the world to think shit through before it happens.  It is not fun to think about, but you have the time now.  Look into visualization as a training technique, iirc dave smith used to be a big proponent of this.  Based on my experience and use iit can be an incredibly useful training tool if used properly.  It can be used for dealing with everything from a kid crying to deadly use of force.  It can be as or more valuable than range time.

How  a defense attorney would look at it is irrelevant.  Actually, it is less than that.  You are paying him to take your side.  The longer you are on the hook the more hours he bills.

How the responding officers look at it is barely relevant.  They are gonna be out of the picture quick if the jurisdiction has more than three cops.

How the investigator looks at is somewhat relevant.  He will recommend what if any charges are brought.

How a grand jury in your jurisdiction looks at it is more relevant because they decide bill or no bill.

How the prosecutor looks at it is relevant because he will decide the question of file, not file, go to grand jury.

In Oregon the situation you described is a robbery



For lethal force to be justified...



Where I live you would never be charged should you choose to shoot the guy.  Would I do it given the situation?  Depends on how I feel being there and if I believe he may have an accomplice in the store.  You're justified regardless where I live.

I would look at it differently.  In Ohio deadly force can only be used to prevent death or serious bodily harm.  It cannot be used to defend property.

In this case, since the robber's gun was holstered, I don't think it would be difficult to argue that anyone had a reasonable and honest fear for their safety.  Thus, drawing a weapon would not have been justified.  

If the robber makes a move for his gun, then lethal force would be justified, in my opinion.

^^^

So if a man shows you a holstered pistol and demands money you don't have a fear for your safety or for the safety of others until the gun is unholstered?  Guess what, your draw isn't fast enough.

Is it justifiable under the pretext that was given?  Utterly.

Is it prudent?  Perhaps not depending on the circumstances.  But on the contention of reasonableness of using lethal force it's justifiable.

Personally, I don't care if the law "allows" me to shoot the guy or not.  If he hasn't drawn the gun, or is the process of drawing, I could not justify shooting him TO MYSELF.  Look for concealment and keep your hand on the grip.  If he goes for the weapon, shoot him.

Make a list of everyone in this world that you would live and die for; give up your family, career, assets, freedoms, and all future days for.
Your list is probably your wife, kids, maybe a very close friend or two, right?
Is the clerk on the list?
Is the gas station on the list?
Is the contents of the register on the list?
If the answer is no, then you should turn around, walk out, and call 911. Be a good witness.
If he points a gun at you, do what you need to.
If he threatens the lives of others, that decision is one only you can make.

Yep

I woulds have quickly walked out to safety, and called cops!