User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:00:30 AM EDT
[#1]
I feel that some situations could be de-escalated by displaying a weapon. The kicker is that if it doesn't work you better be ready to use it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:02:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I feel that some situations could be de-escalated by displaying a weapon. The kicker is that if it doesn't work you better be ready to use it. This. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:16:55 AM EDT
[#3]
If I draw and the situation "de-escalates" before I shoot, that's great. That said, if I draw the gun I have every intention of putting it to use.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:20:18 AM EDT
[#4]
I've cleared leather twice in the past year and didn't have to shoot. So I voted no to the question.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:39:33 AM EDT
[#5]
IMHO that's one of those dumb pieces of advice that revolves around making lawmakers happy for things that MIGHT happen I.E. getting hemmed up on brandishing charges.
If your situational awareness dictates that "I need to be ready to shoot" it is beneficial to be ready. I wouldn't wave a gun around and announce it... But even the act of getting it out and ready is like a GIANT bat signal to criminal elements and will make people change their minds about potential victims. I know people who where unarmed who faked reaching for a weapon and that was all it took to avoid confrontation. IMHO brandishing for self defense is 100% justifiable, and is the most common form of using a gun for self defense, much more so than actually shooting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:46:25 AM EDT
[#6]
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:52:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I draw and the situation "de-escalates" before I shoot, that's great. That said, if I draw the gun I have every intention of putting it to use. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:54:39 AM EDT
[#8]
I have drawn a few times and not shot. Still concealed, but ready to rock.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 9:57:00 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 10:01:55 AM EDT
[#10]
I have drawn a gun on a human being. He is alive today only because he submitted instantly. If he had as much as sneezed he would be dead. Thank God I didn't shoot the 15 year old with a toy gun playing a dangerously stupid prank.
I voted yes. I was ready to kill him. He didn't need killing that day. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 10:10:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The POS better back off really very fast. Faster than I would squeeze the trigger because I would only draw if I felt my life or my family's in immediate danger. And I would not care if the criminal would have bare hands. The FBI has enough statistics about their lethality. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 10:14:04 AM EDT
[#12]
This question: " Would you Shoot with 100% Certainty if You Felt You Had to Pull Your Weapon?" is worded differently than your thread title. There is always some uncertainty if you pull intending to shoot. Let's say the fuckstain drops their weapon and runs. Let's say you give them an order to stop what they are doing and they do.
There are lots of times where you may draw and not shoot. The way you word it the second time is that once you draw, you will shoot, regardless of dynamic. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 10:23:53 AM EDT
[#13]
In a dynamic situation predetermining that once you unholster or present a firearm it must be used is just stupid. Some situations only need a threat of force. States, like Texas, sometimes cover when the threat of force does not constitute deadly force. Texas Law Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 10:34:33 AM EDT
[#14]
I've never drawn on a person. I have no desire to. I can imagine many scenarios where I might draw and the dynamic change and me not fire, things happen fast in conflicts, lawmakers and professionals/instructors often act as though people will have all the time in the world. I can also imagine scenarios where I might attempt the deterrent effect, but not without the willingness to fire.
What you were told, was probably a bad way of saying don't pull your gun on the 12 year olds tp'ing your house to scare them off. Pointing a gun at someone here is "use of deadly force" which means if you do it a reasonable person best believe that you had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm happening to you or someone else in the immediate future if not at the time you pulled. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 11:03:54 AM EDT
[#15]
All this is good input, thanks. I think what the instructor was getting at is by the time you decide to pull your firearm you should know whether or not you are going to shoot. According to him, there is little time at all to make a decision once you pass that point. He is saying pull it and shoot it and don't think twice because it may cost you your life. I am in agreement to some extent that there would be scenarios where you would not shoot but I have never been put in any type of situation like this and hopefully never will be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 11:15:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All this is good input, thanks. I think what the instructor was getting at is by the time you decide to pull your firearm you should know whether or not you are going to shoot. According to him, there is little time at all to make a decision once you pass that point. He is saying pull it and shoot it and don't think twice because it may cost you your life. I am in agreement to some extent that there would be scenarios where you would not shoot but I have never been put in any type of situation like this and hopefully never will be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 11:18:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I draw and the situation "de-escalates" before I shoot, that's great. That said, if I draw the gun I have every intention of putting it to use. This. I've only had to draw twice in more than three decades of daily CCW. I've only had to fire once. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 11:28:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Do LEOs shoot every time they draw thier weapons? If , at the last second, you saw that the urban youth really did just have a sandwich in his hand, would you still shoot. Would you ruin the rest of your life fighting Al Sharpton and the other race baiters of the world in court?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 11:30:36 AM EDT
[#19]
This is a black and white topic. If you draw, you are required to shoot to kill, no questions.
/sarcasm. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 12:00:32 PM EDT
[#20]
You should be prepared to shoot if needed and shoot until the threat is neutralized and stopped. If that means killing the aggressor, so be it, but once the threat is over, you're well-advised to stop shootin'.
On the other hand, you should also be prepared to NOT shoot, if the presentation of your gun de-escalates the situation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 1:06:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I feel that some situations could be de-escalated by displaying a weapon. The kicker is that if it doesn't work you better be ready to use it. This. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 1:39:47 PM EDT
[#22]
I've gone hand on gun twice in the last eighteen years I've ccw'd, never cleared leather though.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 1:43:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Okay, so we learned in CCW Training from some "experts" that you never pull your weapon unless you intend to shoot and will shoot with 100% certainty and never as a threat or deterrent. Also, they said you should always shoot to kill, and never to wound. I am wondering if most people who carry agree with this, especially with the first part. The reason I bring this up is that I have read threads where people said they pulled their weapon as a deterrent with the intent to shoot ONLY if the threat continues to a certain threshold (based on their perception) after they pull it. For example, a road rage situation where a guy is pounding on your locked window saying he is going to kill you. He has a knife but no gun that you can see. Do you wait until the situation escalates further or pull your weapon hoping he will back down instead of firing immediately. This is just an example, there are tons of other scenarios where you could tell someone you intend to shoot prior to shooting them. What if he didn't have a weapon, would you do the same thing? IF you pull, you MUST be PREPARED to shoot. PREPARED = possibly justified, with the will to do what it takes to protect yourself. Go read the "Street Robberies and You" thread for about 100 examples of people justifibly drawing a weapon and not shooting. It's not a magic Elric sword where it has to kill before you put it back in the sheath. It's all about escalating the defense in a way that keeps you safe, sometimes that means displaying the fact that you are able and could kill to protect yourself.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 1:48:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. In other words, DIFFERENT RULES that what an ordinary person has to follow.
How long you wait to fire depends a lot on the situation, there are no "rules of thumb" there aside from shoot center of mass to stop the threat if the threat continues. Letting the guy contemplate the fact you have a gun for a second or two while you line up and get some pounds on the trigger isn't going to hurt all that much. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 5:46:16 PM EDT
[#25]
I used to think I had the "if I draw I fire" mentality, but have learned enough since to change. I am now of the "if I draw, I will be READY to fire" implying I would never draw unless my options were rapidly narrowing and firing is moving up the list quickly. It all depends on the situation. I carry a gun to STOP, not to kill. If nothing I've done up to that point has caused the offending party to stop, the sight of a gun still might. If they are within striking distance of their weapon and seem ready to use it that is a different story (weapon being fists, knife, handgun, etc.). Drawing to me is a step in the escalation process, and there are situations where that step can be the final step.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 6:12:33 PM EDT
[#26]
It depends on the scenario:
Scenario #1 - I feel threatened, but the suspect doesn't have a visible weapon. Solution - Pepper spray without hesitation or warning. Scenario #2 - I feel threatened and the suspect has a weapon. Solution - Draw and shoot without hesitation or warning. Scenario #3 - I am pumping gas (for example) and a group of thugs are eyeballing me, fanning out in the lot. Solution - Draw and hold my pistol at my side whilst pumping. Make brief eye contact with the suspects so they know you are watching them. If I am in my car, the vehicle is my weapon. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 6:21:28 PM EDT
[#27]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 6:37:49 PM EDT
[#28]
I wouldn't tell anyone to never draw unless they were going to shoot. But on the flip side you need to be aware of the legalities and liabilities.
1. Be aware that your action may illicit a response. When I say that I mean assuming its a non-lethal situation, you may pull your gun with intentions of de-escalating the situation and you may escalate it. At that point you may be forced to kill someone. Whether or not your criminally or civilly liable can depends on the whim of a judge/jury. If you draw your weapon you need to know that action can potentially cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees with the possibility of a murder charge/trial. 2. If at any time you can walk away from the situation and you do not, your liable to be arrested/charged. I know first hand of cases where a guy with a CCW gets into a fight or gets 'attacked' then becomes the aggressor because their ego got the better of them. The whole "I was defending myself" argument is GONE if you can turn and walk away. You may defend yourself against an ACTIVE threat. Not against someone who could be a threat/was a threat. In general the use of a weapon is a huge liability and I would be reluctant to do so unless I had no choice. There are a lot of morons out there who seem to want to use their weapon/put them-self into situations where they need it. The whole Zimmerman situation, regardless of if he was justified or not, was completely avoidable. He's out a crapload of money and his life is turned upside down because he's a stupid individual. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 6:55:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to think I had the "if I draw I fire" mentality, but have learned enough since to change. I am now of the "if I draw, I will be READY to fire" implying I would never draw unless my options were rapidly narrowing and firing is moving up the list quickly. It all depends on the situation. I carry a gun to STOP, not to kill. If nothing I've done up to that point has caused the offending party to stop, the sight of a gun still might. If they are within striking distance of their weapon and seem ready to use it that is a different story (weapon being fists, knife, handgun, etc.). Drawing to me is a step in the escalation process, and there are situations where that step can be the final step. TPNI |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 7:44:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do LEOs shoot every time they draw thier weapons? If , at the last second, you saw that the urban youth really did just have a sandwich in his hand, would you still shoot. Would you ruin the rest of your life fighting Al Sharpton and the other race baiters of the world in court? LEOs are exempt from "brandishing" charges though... being more perfeshnul and all that. That exemption allows them the couple seconds needed to get ahead of the curve on the trigger pulling decision. For us regular guys, it's very unlikely that there would be enough time between "oh, shit I'm going to have to shoot this guy" and drawing/firing for the target to have a change of heart and de-escalate. YMMV |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 11:59:15 PM EDT
[#31]
The idea of if I pull my gun I have to shoot is probably the most ludicrous thing I've heard. Like most people have already said, if someone is posing a loss-of-life threat to myself or my loved ones then I will draw my weapon. Here's where it gets tricky, if I have decided to draw my weapon, I've made that decision because I cannot get away, I'm already over-stressed and yelling commands is probably going to sound something like asdfhjlsa;fhjdklas out of my mouth. That being said, I would draw, take whatever aim I could and do my best to holler a command. If the perp doesn't stop in their tracks then I'll fire.
Every force-on-force situation is different. There is no way for any of us or really even an instructor to give you a be all and end all approach. Bottom line, if you draw your weapon, be prepared to use it. If you're not prepared to use it, leave it at home in the safe. If the situation de-escalates and you don't have to shoot, that's the best result you can ask for. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 8:44:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. You were taught wrong. Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 9:48:20 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You were taught wrong. Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. You were taught wrong. Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? WalMart dealio - Don't turn your back on St. Machete for more than a second to find your exit path, then get back with hand on ccw. If he advances, draw and train your gun on him. If he doesn't stop his advance... preserve your life. Traffic altercation- Move to center of vehicle, draw gun and train it on St. Crowbar. If he breaks your window... preserve your life. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 3:07:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I feel that some situations could be de-escalated by displaying a weapon. The kicker is that if it doesn't work you better be ready to use it. This is what I feel also. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 10:07:41 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WalMart dealio - Don't turn your back on St. Machete for more than a second to find your exit path, then get back with hand on ccw. If he advances, draw and train your gun on him. If he doesn't stop his advance... preserve your life. Traffic altercation- Move to center of vehicle, draw gun and train it on St. Crowbar. If he breaks your window... preserve your life. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. You were taught wrong. Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? WalMart dealio - Don't turn your back on St. Machete for more than a second to find your exit path, then get back with hand on ccw. If he advances, draw and train your gun on him. If he doesn't stop his advance... preserve your life. Traffic altercation- Move to center of vehicle, draw gun and train it on St. Crowbar. If he breaks your window... preserve your life. I love that you named the bad guys. lol |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 10:28:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe that if you are going to draw you should be ready to shoot, and if you shoot it should be to kill. That being said, if I draw and the bad guy backs off, then great and I wouldn't shoot. Just never assume that just displaying a firearm will make someone back off. The counter argument against not shooting immediately is that hesitation can kill you - at least this is according the the instructor that says he has/was in three deadly gun fights. That's debatable. I drew down on a homeless fuck that tried to aggressively shake me down in Nashville about a decade ago. When he saw me begin my draw stroke, he fucking vanished into thin air. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 10:29:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I feel that some situations could be de-escalated by displaying a weapon. The kicker is that if it doesn't work you better be ready to use it. This. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2014 10:32:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't tell anyone to never draw unless they were going to shoot. But on the flip side you need to be aware of the legalities and liabilities. 1. Be aware that your action may illicit a response. When I say that I mean assuming its a non-lethal situation, you may pull your gun with intentions of de-escalating the situation and you may escalate it. At that point you may be forced to kill someone. Whether or not your criminally or civilly liable can depends on the whim of a judge/jury. If you draw your weapon you need to know that action can potentially cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees with the possibility of a murder charge/trial. 2. If at any time you can walk away from the situation and you do not, your liable to be arrested/charged. I know first hand of cases where a guy with a CCW gets into a fight or gets 'attacked' then becomes the aggressor because their ego got the better of them. The whole "I was defending myself" argument is GONE if you can turn and walk away. You may defend yourself against an ACTIVE threat. Not against someone who could be a threat/was a threat. In general the use of a weapon is a huge liability and I would be reluctant to do so unless I had no choice. There are a lot of morons out there who seem to want to use their weapon/put them-self into situations where they need it. The whole Zimmerman situation, regardless of if he was justified or not, was completely avoidable. He's out a crapload of money and his life is turned upside down because he's a stupid individual. He didn't do anything wrong. He was the victim of a felony assault and defended himself with legal, lethal force. Choke yourself. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2014 1:34:29 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I feel that some situations could be de-escalated by displaying a weapon. The kicker is that if it doesn't work you better be ready to use it. This. Exactly, If you whip it out, Be prepared to use it. Doesn't mean that you are Wanting to,But you are ready IF it escalates to that point of squeezing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2014 2:31:30 AM EDT
[#40]
Unass the weapon @ the first sign of trouble, keep it concealed if possible. If there's a threat, shoot to reduce the blood pressure of that threat until it's no longer a threat. That may be lethal, it might not. Don't shoot to kill. Shoot to lower blood pressure.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2014 2:39:56 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You were taught wrong.
Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? Both are brandishing lethal weapons in public. Draw in WalMart and observe - he may go charging after his baby momma. If crow bar is running up @ my car waving the crow bar over his head, yelling, my perception is he intends deadly force. Unload. If he's calmly walking up carrying a crow bar, maybe he see's we've gotten stuck together and he's going to pry us apart. Draw & observe. State laws and folks' vehicles are vastly different. In my van, in Texas, I can drive around w/ a shotgun in my lap & no one's the wiser. If you've got a Mazda Miata, the situation's going to be quite different. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2014 8:18:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He didn't do anything wrong. He was the victim of a felony assault and defended himself with legal, lethal force. Choke yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I wouldn't tell anyone to never draw unless they were going to shoot. But on the flip side you need to be aware of the legalities and liabilities. 1. Be aware that your action may illicit a response. When I say that I mean assuming its a non-lethal situation, you may pull your gun with intentions of de-escalating the situation and you may escalate it. At that point you may be forced to kill someone. Whether or not your criminally or civilly liable can depends on the whim of a judge/jury. If you draw your weapon you need to know that action can potentially cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees with the possibility of a murder charge/trial. 2. If at any time you can walk away from the situation and you do not, your liable to be arrested/charged. I know first hand of cases where a guy with a CCW gets into a fight or gets 'attacked' then becomes the aggressor because their ego got the better of them. The whole "I was defending myself" argument is GONE if you can turn and walk away. You may defend yourself against an ACTIVE threat. Not against someone who could be a threat/was a threat. In general the use of a weapon is a huge liability and I would be reluctant to do so unless I had no choice. There are a lot of morons out there who seem to want to use their weapon/put them-self into situations where they need it. The whole Zimmerman situation, regardless of if he was justified or not, was completely avoidable. He's out a crapload of money and his life is turned upside down because he's a stupid individual. He didn't do anything wrong. He was the victim of a felony assault and defended himself with legal, lethal force. Choke yourself. He didn't do anything illegal as deemed by a jury of his peers and a judge. But he was a 'victim' because he put himself in that situation. I bet if you go for a walk tonight and a police officer stops and confronts you and demands ID/ an explanation of your presence based purely on the fact that he doesn't recognize you as a resident of the area you'd be furious and probably outraged feeling that there is a violation of your rights. Confronting a random black guy in the middle of the night walking down the road as a civilian/neighborhood watch probably wasn't the smartest of ideas. The fact that it lead to him being attacked and as a result having to resort to deadly force is a pretty good indication that it was a poor choice of action. Again, is it illegal for a civilian to go confront a random stranger based on racial profiling? Nah. Let a police officer do it, especially when it results in that subjects life being taken, and riots /lawsuits ensue. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2014 8:55:25 PM EDT
[#43]
I think that during a time when I'd be likely to draw, counting out percentages wouldn't register in my thought processes.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2014 10:45:54 PM EDT
[#44]
I pulled my gun once, when I worked at a gas station and thought the two guys were going to do something to me after I kicked them out of the store, and they returned. I've posted it a few times. One of the scariest moments of my life. I hope I'm never in a situation where I need a gun ever again, but I keep one on me in case.
At the time I pulled, I had no intention of shooting, and yes, it was brandishing. I was hoping that they got the point I wasn't fucking around, and would leave. They did, I called cops, they came and took my statement. Couple weeks later same guys got busted for armed robbery at a gas station down the street. I still have nightmares about that incident occasionally. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2014 1:23:15 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both are brandishing lethal weapons in public. Draw in WalMart and observe - he may go charging after his baby momma. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You were taught wrong.
Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? Both are brandishing lethal weapons in public. Draw in WalMart and observe - he may go charging after his baby momma. State laws and folks' vehicles are vastly different. In my van, in Texas, I can drive around w/ a shotgun in my lap & no one's the wiser. If you've got a Mazda Miata, the situation's going to be quite different. Yes, state laws vary. People drive different vehicles. What has a van and Miata to do with anything? In Texas, one can carry a shotgun in one's lap in either vehicle. what has that to do with either scenario? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2014 1:35:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Texas does not have brandishing, whatever that is. Both scenarios are draw scenarios. Drawing is perfectly justified in both. I any state I reckon. Yes, state laws vary. People drive different vehicles. What has a van and Miata to do with anything? In Texas, one can carry a shotgun in one's lap in either vehicle. what has that to do with either scenario? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: You were taught wrong.
Let's imagine you are at Wal Mart shopping. You are checking out big screen TV's, and you hear screaming and commotion to your right. As you turn there is a man standing about 60 feet away with a large machete. He has it over his head and looks at you and says to get the fuck away. Can he cut you from that distance? No, he has to cover 60 feet. So should you stay holstered? Or would you draw with no intention to fire at that moment, but to reduce your reaction time? You have a traffic altercation and get blocked in at an intersection. The other driver exits his car with a crow bar. Do you wait until he is close enough to you that you have to shoot him, or draw when he is at a distance where you do not immediately need to use deadly force? Both are brandishing lethal weapons in public. Draw in WalMart and observe - he may go charging after his baby momma. Texas does not have brandishing, whatever that is. Both scenarios are draw scenarios. Drawing is perfectly justified in both. I any state I reckon. State laws and folks' vehicles are vastly different. In my van, in Texas, I can drive around w/ a shotgun in my lap & no one's the wiser. If you've got a Mazda Miata, the situation's going to be quite different. Yes, state laws vary. People drive different vehicles. What has a van and Miata to do with anything? In Texas, one can carry a shotgun in one's lap in either vehicle. what has that to do with either scenario? http://cd.textfiles.com/group42/WEAPONS/LAWS/TX.HTM It is unlawful to display a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. If you're in a Miata, the fellow w/ the crow bar has already seen the shotgun. In my van, not so much. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2014 1:50:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Okay, so we learned in CCW Training from some "experts" that you never pull your weapon unless you intend to shoot and will shoot with 100% certainty... Well, they're stupid. "It's irresponsible to pull out your fire extinguisher unless you immediately, reflexively yank the pin and start spraying." Stupid. All it takes is a look at the number of incidents people in the US have pulled a gun on a mugger or burglar and had the attacker run off without a shot being fired. The number is MUCH higher than private-citizen shots-fired incidents. According to the wisdom of those "experts" all those people were wrong for either not shooting a running-away attacker, or they were wrong for pulling the gun when faced with a mugger in the first place. Yep, stupid. Quoted:...For example, a road rage situation where a guy is pounding on your locked window saying he is going to kill you. He has a knife but no gun that you can see. Do you wait until the situation escalates further or pull your weapon hoping he will back down instead of firing immediately...
...What if he didn't have a weapon, would you do the same thing? If he's harming, attempting to harm, or even threatening (with credible opportunity/ability) to harm, then yes. In your road rage scenario, he's not only threatening to kill me, he's got a deadly weapon right in his hand while doing making that threat. So we've got intent and opportunity. I'm a seriously nice person, but at that point, the least he's going to get is a glimpse of my gun. He may get a glimpse of muzzle flash. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2014 9:17:53 AM EDT
[#48]
This is a good example of the downside of CCW “Instruction”. There are too many so called “experts” telling people what they should do. The guy who offers this advice in the op doesn’t know people. And he is no expert on de-escalating.
Not all people are the same and not all situations are the same and there is no cookie cutter approach that can be used in every conflict situation. De-escalation techniques can be useful (and all ccw holders should look them up and learn them) if you are dealing with a “normal” person, someone who is wound up and having a really bad day and is now wrapped up in a temper tantrum. But these techniques will not work with a psychopath. Psychopaths will frequently only back down if confronted with a credible show of force; and sometimes not even then. No one in a confrontation has the expertise or the time to run a psych profile on an aggressive individual in the minute or less time in which a conflict can develop and escalate. Judgement, experience, staying calm and rational are the best weapons anyone has got outside of their sidearm. If there was a one size fits all approach to these problems we would have zero need for courts and juries to examine and judge these situations after the fact. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2014 10:17:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://cd.textfiles.com/group42/WEAPONS/LAWS/TX.HTM If you're in a Miata, the fellow w/ the crow bar has already seen the shotgun. In my van, not so much. Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://cd.textfiles.com/group42/WEAPONS/LAWS/TX.HTM It is unlawful to display a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. If you're in a Miata, the fellow w/ the crow bar has already seen the shotgun. In my van, not so much. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I guess I just don't see how that affects the legal issues of drawing or shooting. And since you reference PC 42.01, is your vehicle a public place? Is there case law? You can hang your shotgun in the rear window of your vehicle and not be in violation of 42.01 |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2014 12:02:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I guess I just don't see how that affects the legal issues of drawing or shooting. And since you reference PC 42.01, is your vehicle a public place? Is there case law? You can hang your shotgun in the rear window of your vehicle and not be in violation of 42.01 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: http://cd.textfiles.com/group42/WEAPONS/LAWS/TX.HTM
It is unlawful to display a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. If you're in a Miata, the fellow w/ the crow bar has already seen the shotgun. In my van, not so much. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I guess I just don't see how that affects the legal issues of drawing or shooting. And since you reference PC 42.01, is your vehicle a public place? Is there case law? You can hang your shotgun in the rear window of your vehicle and not be in violation of 42.01 I was referring to the possible targets with possible weapons when I cited brandishing. You said Texas doesn't have brandishing - we do, we call it something else, and it doesn't apply to crowbars or machetes. That doesn't negate the fact that in the example, our possible target in WalMart is brandishing a machete. Whether or not a possible target has seen your longarm or not doesn't affect the legal issues in Texas necessarily, but it may affect the tactical situation. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
