is it legal to put a VFG on an ak pistol? I have read something somewhere stating if the "pistol" is over 26" you can? my m92 is sutup with a stormwerkz hinge and a shockwave brace on an ar pistol buffer tube. The overall length of this from the rear of the buffer to the front of the barrel is just over 28"  can I put a VFG on this and be legal?

Yes, VFG on a pistol >26" is GTG.

so it does not matter if the brace can be folded? if the length from the end of the muzzle to the end of the buffer tube is over 26" you can put a regular vertical grip on it?

Doesn't matter.  As long as overall length is 26"

just making sure I would really hate to get 10 years and lose everything over 2" of plastic hanging 90 degrees off the front of my firearm. Has this always been the case or is it something recent the ATF has rulled on? I seem to recall something about them saying it made the pistol into a firearm or AOW and required registration per NFA requirements?

From the ATF letters I have read along with my understanding, buffer tubes on AKs do not count towards the OAL.

Perhaps you've not read this one, from Feb. of this year. It was posted here but is now in archives and I don't seem to be able to search them with my status:

https://d2kyvj3kvr3yw0.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/atf-ak-ar15-buffer-tube-2015-02-11.pdf

- OS

I just found the thread where Dolomite_supafly posted the letter he sent to the ATF. It didn't have the ATF's response. I saw you're in that thread as well. Is that his response letter?

My advise to the OP was going to be contact D_S to see if he had received clarification.

ETA According to this letter OP your pistol can not have a VFG unless you get a stamp.

Yes. There's another thread somewhere where Dolo followed up with this.



I got the opposite take from Dolo's letter. ie, that:

- buffer tube on AK pistol is okay IF a brace is attached
- buffer tube would then add to OAL
- if OAL is 26" or more, VFG is okay, same as with an AR

- OS

With a brace, yes. I forgot that was in the OP.

Holly crap that's confusing. This is very important to my business to to get this right. What is the answer to the OPs question.

The only thing that's clear for sure is that ATF has always maintained that a VFG on a handgun makes it an AOW. (Note that this opinion has never actually been vindicated by a conviction in court). Then, there was the ATF niche decision several years ago that if the handgun is 26" or more in legal OAL, it becomes a legal non-NFA "firearm" while the VFG is attached. Neither of these are based on any specific federal law, beyond interpretation of the definition of "handgun" and "pistol" and the ATF assumption of 26" being a criterion of "concealable" due to SBR/SBS law.

That niche exception was originally applied regarding standard direct impingement type AR handguns, as the buffer tube is clearly "part of the firearm" on the ass end and hence counts in OAL.  Becomes gray with platform where the buffer tube is not necessary for operation, one of which is the AK (although in the letter cited, it was counted with the condition that it was used to hold a brace). Clear as mud, I agree. That is the ATF normal culture of obfuscation regarding specific but non-comprehensive rulings, and with the proviso that in general, their letters only strictly apply to the person who asked on top of that.

Then of course, there is the whole ongoing question of just what does and does not constitute a Vertical Forward Grip in the first place, which is not defined in federal law either. Etc.

If your business depends on ATF approval, obviously best to get your own ruling directly from the horse's mouth, just like other vendors who have made iffy niche products.

- OS

My advice given to customers regarding the use of my product is that buffer tubes do not count towards the OAL on AKs. At least with that, they can't go wrong.

Not knowing your product:

If you mean on a pistol, according to the opinion under discussion, indeed they could, if not used for a brace.

Obviously, a buffer tube would count toward OAL on a stocked AK rifle, since OAL is measured to the end of a stock,  with no limitation on how the stock is secured to the rest of the firearm.

- OS

I think we are getting out in the weeds here................................even if a buffer tube counts towards the OAL if coupled with an arm brace so that you can install the VFG............................once you shoulder the brace so your support hand can take advantage of the VFG, you have created an SBR which has been verified by BATFE's latest opinion.................................if you use the arm brace as designed, most peoples off hand are not long enough to even reach the VFG.

What's the point?

The point is that people are of course shouldering the braces. It's the only practical reason to have one, except for a handful of handicapped folks who may be actually using it as a forearm brace.

The clear cut legal distinction is that folks can legally have them on their short barreled heaters period, as opposed to a stock.

- OS

Point being, Its not worth dicking around with all of this back and forth when you could be spending time filling out a form 1 and doing it right.


SBR all the things!

I would add.  While the method of measuring rifles is legally defined, there is no legally defined method for measuring other firearms.  A folding brace is unlikely to count towards your 26" goal as the ATF may then consider it concealable on the person.

Hurray for taxes

Equally logical to think that they would be measured in same way as rifles with folding and collapsible stocks, ie with them at fullest extension. Though whether only the buffer tube or the brace itself would count, gawd only knows.

Dolomite asked that question in the letter in this thread, but answer was rather evasive.

You'd have to ask "them". But actually ... don't.

- OS

And my point is that BATFE has already ruled that once you shoulder an arm brace you have created an SBR.  Might as well make it legal on a Form1.

Pretty obvious ATF has no interest in trying to test the ruling with enforcement, so what does it matter?  

A pistol still has certain legal advantages in many if not most of the states, not to mention the various negatives of a SBR in general.

- OS

How about this scenario:

A Draco pistol with a dong hand guard/foregrip?

What planet would an ATF guy have to be from to not consider that a vertical forward grip?

- OS

I'd rather pay the tax than legal fees.

its also integral to the hand guard.

So what? There are AR lowers that have integral stocks, still "other firearms/receiver" until configured like any other.  That doesn't mean you can use them with short barrels and call them handguns.

But like I mentioned, there has never been a conviction for using a VFG on a handgun, so the odds are with you,  have at at.

- OS