User Panel
Posted: 3/25/2015 11:49:15 AM EDT
AK pistol to SBR....
Is 922r required? When I purchased an AK pistol, a buddy said "woohoo, now SBR that #$%!" When I mentioned 922r compliance He said it isn't required on NFA/SBR Does his claim hold water? |
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[#1]
Quoted: AK pistol to SBR.... Is 922r required? When I purchased an AK pistol, a buddy said "woohoo, now SBR that #$%!" When I mentioned 922r compliance He said it isn't required on NFA/SBR Does his claim hold water? View Quote I don't think it is known. It is not clearly specified in law and the ATF has given conflicting opinions on the matter. |
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[#2]
Quoted:
I don't think it is known. It is not clearly specified in law and the ATF has given conflicting opinions on the matter. View Quote This. Everyone (except the ATF) has their own opinion and will swear they are correct. The answer is...who knows? The safe way is, of course, to comply. |
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[#3]
My take on the issue...while the weapon is in my possession I will configure it to suite my needs regardless of component origin. If I sell/trade a weapon I ensure it meets 922r requirements. This is NOT legal advice, just my personal opinion and preference on the matter. As others have stated the ATF guidance on this is about as clear as mud.
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[#4]
this is not legal advice either but when i gave the atf the name/make/model/description of the ak pistol and asked permission to make it into an sbr, they approved it. they didn't say "yes as long as you swap parts....."
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[#5]
At the time you "manufacture" the SBR I was under the impression that it became a US-made firearm in the eyes of the ATF. Like others said, nobody truly knows. You should be able to satisfy 922r easily on an AK pistol.
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[#6]
US made AK parts are numerous and of high enough quality that it just makes sense to bring it into 922r compliance even though there is not a definitive ruling.
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[#7]
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[#8]
Quoted:
US made AK parts are numerous and of high enough quality that it just makes sense to bring it into 922r compliance even though there is not a definitive ruling. View Quote A Tapco G2 FCG and a Tapco magazine would meet the requirements if you leave the original furniture on the Draco so yes it is easy to comply with the intent of 922r. I am actually in the process of having my Draco SBR'd right now, and to meet the reguirement for six US made parts I'm using a G2 FCG (3), JMAC AIMR flash hider (1), and a US follower (1) and floorplate (1) in the bakelite magazines I've set aside for it. |
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[#9]
Quoted:
At the time you "manufacture" the SBR I was under the impression that it became a US-made firearm in the eyes of the ATF. View Quote exactly. If you have to engrave the firearm with the name of the new manufacturer, then it is now manufactured in the USA. Of course, whether or not it has to be engraved is another clear as mud law....so there's that. |
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[#10]
Quoted: exactly. If you have to engrave the firearm with the name of the new manufacturer, then it is now manufactured in the USA. Of course, whether or not it has to be engraved is another clear as mud law....so there's that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: At the time you "manufacture" the SBR I was under the impression that it became a US-made firearm in the eyes of the ATF. exactly. If you have to engrave the firearm with the name of the new manufacturer, then it is now manufactured in the USA. Of course, whether or not it has to be engraved is another clear as mud law....so there's that. As I understand it, making is not synonymous with manufacturing. But we can discuss this all day long and never come to a definitive answer. The ATF is the sole arbiter and they don't need a very strong rational for a descision. |
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[#11]
Whatever you do, "DO NOT" write the ATF for clarification or you will end up screwing yourself and us in the long run.
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[#12]
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[#13]
Quoted:
AK pistol to SBR.... Is 922r required? NO When I purchased an AK pistol, a buddy said "woohoo, now SBR that #$%!" When I mentioned 922r compliance He said it isn't required on NFA/SBR Does his claim hold water? View Quote end thread |
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[#14]
I'll be the first to admit I've never cared about 922r and haven't really kept up with it. Has anyone ever been even charged with owning a non-compliant firearm? I was always under the impression 922r compliance was for importation only and once it was here it didn't matter.
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[#16]
Quoted:
I'll be the first to admit I've never cared about 922r and haven't really kept up with it. Has anyone ever been even charged with owning a non-compliant firearm? I was always under the impression 922r compliance was for importation only and once it was here it didn't matter. View Quote The statute begins "It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun...." So, mere possession isn't an issue unless the possessor was also the assembler. The question with going to SBR from a pistol, is whether you have then assembled a rifle as per the definition. As for enforcement, nobody seems to be able to point to a case of other than a importer/distributor being hammered with it, no. - OS |
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[#17]
I'm doing mine that way to err one the side of caution, but as most people say there isn't something clear to say either way.
It really doesn't take that many parts to get it done. |
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[#18]
Quoted: +1000 Sometimes guidance that's clear as mud is not a bad thing. This is one of those times! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Whatever you do, "DO NOT" write the ATF for clarification or you will end up screwing yourself and us in the long run. +1000 Sometimes guidance that's clear as mud is not a bad thing. This is one of those times! |
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[#19]
Quoted:
A Tapco G2 FCG and a Tapco magazine would meet the requirements if you leave the original furniture on the Draco so yes it is easy to comply with the intent of 922r. I am actually in the process of having my Draco SBR'd right now, and to meet the reguirement for six US made parts I'm using a G2 FCG (3), JMAC AIMR flash hider (1), and a US follower (1) and floorplate (1) in the bakelite magazines I've set aside for it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
US made AK parts are numerous and of high enough quality that it just makes sense to bring it into 922r compliance even though there is not a definitive ruling. A Tapco G2 FCG and a Tapco magazine would meet the requirements if you leave the original furniture on the Draco so yes it is easy to comply with the intent of 922r. I am actually in the process of having my Draco SBR'd right now, and to meet the reguirement for six US made parts I'm using a G2 FCG (3), JMAC AIMR flash hider (1), and a US follower (1) and floorplate (1) in the bakelite magazines I've set aside for it. The stock would count as a part. |
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[#21]
Quoted:
exactly. If you have to engrave the firearm with the name of the new manufacturer, then it is now manufactured in the USA. Of course, whether or not it has to be engraved is another clear as mud law....so there's that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
exactly. If you have to engrave the firearm with the name of the new manufacturer, then it is now manufactured in the USA. Of course, whether or not it has to be engraved is another clear as mud law....so there's that. NFA is very clear that engraving is required. Emphasis added. NFA Handbook
All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings. If an existing firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4 digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to the alpha characters. The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. Both of those paragraphs reference the law, 27 CFR 479.102 which contains the legal requirements for engraving. 27 CFR 479.102
§ 479.102How must firearms be identified? (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows: (1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and (2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (i) The model, if such designation has been made; (ii) The caliber or gauge; (iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and (v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134. (b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases). (c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part. (d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable. (e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section. (f) (1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section. (2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1140-0050) [T.D. ATF-461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001, as amended by ATF-11F, 73 FR 57242, Oct. 2, 2008] |
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[#22]
Quoted:
NFA is very clear that engraving is required. Emphasis added. Both of those paragraphs reference the law, 27 CFR 479.102 which contains the legal requirements for engraving. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
exactly. If you have to engrave the firearm with the name of the new manufacturer, then it is now manufactured in the USA. Of course, whether or not it has to be engraved is another clear as mud law....so there's that. NFA is very clear that engraving is required. Emphasis added. NFA Handbook
All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings. If an existing firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4 digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to the alpha characters. The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. Both of those paragraphs reference the law, 27 CFR 479.102 which contains the legal requirements for engraving. 27 CFR 479.102
§ 479.102How must firearms be identified? (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows: (1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and (2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (i) The model, if such designation has been made; (ii) The caliber or gauge; (iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and (v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134. (b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases). (c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part. (d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable. (e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section. (f) (1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section. (2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1140-0050) [T.D. ATF-461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001, as amended by ATF-11F, 73 FR 57242, Oct. 2, 2008] I agree and have engraved my M92 and will engrave my AR lower. I was just stating that you see guys arguing semantics about the engraving requirement around here all the time. IMHO, ATF keeps us chasing our tails on purpose. |
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[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
AK pistol to SBR.... Is 922r required? NO When I purchased an AK pistol, a buddy said "woohoo, now SBR that #$%!" When I mentioned 922r compliance He said it isn't required on NFA/SBR Does his claim hold water? end thread DONT FRICKEN ASK THEM!!!! That's the reason AR pistols started all this crap. How many times has a .gov agent showed up at your range to check your config? I truely believe the SBR thing is what caused them to target the green tips. |
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[#24]
You know what? I'm gonna be that guy.
Who cares. 922r is unenforceable and impossible to prove for individuals, it's only in place to handicap importers. Worrying and splitting hairs over it is stupid. |
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[#25]
Quoted:
The stock will be a NIW EG sidefolder I have set aside for it so for my build it will be a foreign part in my overall parts count. I thought about going with JMAC's AIMR stock, but I don't like the style. It will look like a cross between a md.86 and md.90. Here is an example of what mine will look like... http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/lt1st285/DracoAK3_zps1hbocpnt.jpg Here is JMAC's md.86 clone for someone looking to make a "correct" AIMR... http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/lt1st285/image.jpg1_zpsp6kkpswk.jpg Here is a stock photo of a md.90 clone for reference... http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/lt1st285/draco-sbr_zpsunlj6t94.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
US made AK parts are numerous and of high enough quality that it just makes sense to bring it into 922r compliance even though there is not a definitive ruling. A Tapco G2 FCG and a Tapco magazine would meet the requirements if you leave the original furniture on the Draco so yes it is easy to comply with the intent of 922r. I am actually in the process of having my Draco SBR'd right now, and to meet the reguirement for six US made parts I'm using a G2 FCG (3), JMAC AIMR flash hider (1), and a US follower (1) and floorplate (1) in the bakelite magazines I've set aside for it. The stock would count as a part. The stock will be a NIW EG sidefolder I have set aside for it so for my build it will be a foreign part in my overall parts count. I thought about going with JMAC's AIMR stock, but I don't like the style. It will look like a cross between a md.86 and md.90. Here is an example of what mine will look like... http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/lt1st285/DracoAK3_zps1hbocpnt.jpg Here is JMAC's md.86 clone for someone looking to make a "correct" AIMR... http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/lt1st285/image.jpg1_zpsp6kkpswk.jpg Here is a stock photo of a md.90 clone for reference... http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/lt1st285/draco-sbr_zpsunlj6t94.jpg Nice. |
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