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Posted: 3/23/2015 8:03:56 AM EDT
[#1]
If you look at the original disconnector, does it have a tail on it? If so, you may want to use the Arsenal US trigger group, the disconnectors have a tail that sits on the rivet at the rear of the trigger guard that helps prevent trigger slap.
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Posted: 3/23/2015 9:40:01 PM EDT
[#2]
The original Arsenal disconnector has a tail. I don't remember having trigger slap with the original FCG. I just thought that G2 trigger groups were supposed to eliminate trigger slap, not cause it.
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Posted: 3/24/2015 5:02:47 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you look at the original disconnector, does it have a tail on it? If so, you may want to use the Arsenal US trigger group, the disconnectors have a tail that sits on the rivet at the rear of the trigger guard that helps prevent trigger slap. The tail on the disconnector is engaged by the safety when firing on full auto. Its not related to trigger slap. In fact, the tail of the full auto disconnector will not be resting on the rivet while the trigger is pulled. The trigger will be rotated around the axis pin, elevating the disconnector. Trigger slap happens during the point in time that the disconnector catches the hammer as the bolt moves rearward. If the disconnector doesn't have enough room to move, the hammer will force the trigger to move forward enough so that the bolt can keep moving backward. Here are some things to check: Check the hammer springs to make sure they are seated properly. Lightly polishing or smothing the engagement surface of the disconnector might result a smoother catching of the hammer by the disconnector. If that doesnt work, try hand filing some material off the bottom of the disconnector. Like this: 
ETA: photo |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 5:42:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The tail on the disconnector is engaged by the safety when firing on full auto. Its not related to trigger slap. In fact, the tail of the full auto disconnector will not be resting on the rivet while the trigger is pulled. The trigger will be rotated around the axis pin, elevating the disconnector. Trigger slap happens during the point in time that the disconnector catches the hammer as the bolt moves rearward. If the disconnector doesn't have enough room to move, the hammer will force the trigger to move forward enough so that the bolt can keep moving backward. Here are some things to check: Check the hammer springs to make sure they are seated properly. Lightly polishing or smothing the engagement surface of the disconnector might result a smoother catching of the hammer by the disconnector. If that doesnt work, try hand filing some material off the bottom of the disconnector. Like this: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/pix/disconnector_relief.jpg ETA: photo Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you look at the original disconnector, does it have a tail on it? If so, you may want to use the Arsenal US trigger group, the disconnectors have a tail that sits on the rivet at the rear of the trigger guard that helps prevent trigger slap. The tail on the disconnector is engaged by the safety when firing on full auto. Its not related to trigger slap. In fact, the tail of the full auto disconnector will not be resting on the rivet while the trigger is pulled. The trigger will be rotated around the axis pin, elevating the disconnector. Trigger slap happens during the point in time that the disconnector catches the hammer as the bolt moves rearward. If the disconnector doesn't have enough room to move, the hammer will force the trigger to move forward enough so that the bolt can keep moving backward. Here are some things to check: Check the hammer springs to make sure they are seated properly. Lightly polishing or smothing the engagement surface of the disconnector might result a smoother catching of the hammer by the disconnector. If that doesnt work, try hand filing some material off the bottom of the disconnector. Like this: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/pix/disconnector_relief.jpg ETA: photo You're only partially correct but mostly wrong since you don't understand Arsenal trigger groups on the guns they are used in. Specifiically imported Bulgarian AKs. The correct rivet at the rear of the trigger guard is actually a spacer with a specific head style on the inside of the receiver which the disconnector contacts with. Research the Arsenal trigger groups and you will see what they have to say about it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 5:58:24 AM EDT
[#5]
In this flyer http://www.dinzagarms.com/downloads/fcg_arsenal.pdf Arsenal explains why their trigger group stops trigger slap in the guns they import by use of the tail of their disconnector and the special rivet I mentioned. Tapco trigger groups were the first to stop trigger slap, but they don't work so well in all AKs.
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Posted: 3/28/2015 4:21:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're only partially correct but mostly wrong since you don't understand Arsenal trigger groups on the guns they are used in. Specifiically imported Bulgarian AKs. The correct rivet at the rear of the trigger guard is actually a spacer with a specific head style on the inside of the receiver which the disconnector contacts with. Research the Arsenal trigger groups and you will see what they have to say about it. Not true. I think you're mis-understanding the operation of the AKM. The rivet has nothing to do with the operation of the FCG. In fact, the rivet does not contact the disconnector at any point during operation. The purpose of the tail on the disconnector is for full auto fire control groups. Here is a gif that will help you understand the proper fire control group function: 
The article you linked to is from k-var, not Arsenal themselves. It also suffers from the same mis-understanding. The photo they include in the article is of the FCG at the resting position, which is not the point in time that trigger slap occurs. Here is an animation to clarify what trigger slap looks like. Take note of where the disconnector is in relation to the rivet when trigger slap happens. 
Watch the animation closely, trigger slap does not happen when the rifle is idle, it happens when the trigger is held to the rear. While in this position, it is impossible for the disconnector to contact the rivet. Bottom line: trigger slap is caused when the disconnector does not have enough room to move when catching the hammer. It is not related to the rivet. |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 11:42:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Fascinating! Keep the info coming. I appreciate it!
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Posted: 3/29/2015 5:37:44 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not true. I think you're mis-understanding the operation of the AKM. The rivet has nothing to do with the operation of the FCG. In fact, the rivet does not contact the disconnector at any point during operation. The purpose of the tail on the disconnector is for full auto fire control groups. Here is a gif that will help you understand the proper fire control group function: http://www.adamkonieska.com/images/ak47-proper-disconnector-movement-animation.gif The article you linked to is from k-var, not Arsenal themselves. It also suffers from the same mis-understanding. The photo they include in the article is of the FCG at the resting position, which is not the point in time that trigger slap occurs. Here is an animation to clarify what trigger slap looks like. Take note of where the disconnector is in relation to the rivet when trigger slap happens. http://www.adamkonieska.com/images/ak47-trigger-slap-animation.gif Watch the animation closely, trigger slap does not happen when the rifle is idle, it happens when the trigger is held to the rear. While in this position, it is impossible for the disconnector to contact the rivet. Bottom line: trigger slap is caused when the disconnector does not have enough room to move when catching the hammer. It is not related to the rivet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're only partially correct but mostly wrong since you don't understand Arsenal trigger groups on the guns they are used in. Specifiically imported Bulgarian AKs. The correct rivet at the rear of the trigger guard is actually a spacer with a specific head style on the inside of the receiver which the disconnector contacts with. Research the Arsenal trigger groups and you will see what they have to say about it. Not true. I think you're mis-understanding the operation of the AKM. The rivet has nothing to do with the operation of the FCG. In fact, the rivet does not contact the disconnector at any point during operation. The purpose of the tail on the disconnector is for full auto fire control groups. Here is a gif that will help you understand the proper fire control group function: http://www.adamkonieska.com/images/ak47-proper-disconnector-movement-animation.gif The article you linked to is from k-var, not Arsenal themselves. It also suffers from the same mis-understanding. The photo they include in the article is of the FCG at the resting position, which is not the point in time that trigger slap occurs. Here is an animation to clarify what trigger slap looks like. Take note of where the disconnector is in relation to the rivet when trigger slap happens. http://www.adamkonieska.com/images/ak47-trigger-slap-animation.gif Watch the animation closely, trigger slap does not happen when the rifle is idle, it happens when the trigger is held to the rear. While in this position, it is impossible for the disconnector to contact the rivet. Bottom line: trigger slap is caused when the disconnector does not have enough room to move when catching the hammer. It is not related to the rivet. I agree with much of what you said, but it doesn't explain why Tapco fcg seems to cause trigger slap in some arsenal guns and the Arsenal fcgs don't. The tail of the disconnector contacting the rivet prevents the disconnector from forcing the forward movement of the trigger thus preventing trigger slap. We are on the same page, but not paragragh, the arsenal fcg's with their design prevent trigger slap when used with the correct rivet by keeping the trigger from being forced forward. The link I posted is the same info. that Arsenal packages with their FCGs so don't be so quick to discredit it by saying its from Kvar. Bottom line is, if your Arsenal AK is now giving you trigger slap with the installation of a Tapco trigger group, fix it by installing an Arsenal US trigger group, no need to over think it. |
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Posted: 3/29/2015 6:44:16 PM EDT
[#9]
I put the Arsenal trigger group back in, and the trigger slap is gone. I did polish the hammer before putting it back in, which eliminated the "speed bump" on the hammer that simulated a two-stage trigger. I wish the length of pull were not so long though. I liked how short the length of pull on the G2 was. I wish I could make the pull shorter, but I don't know how. Maybe if I removed some material from the hammer.
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Posted: 3/30/2015 2:44:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Here is a great tutorial on AK trigger jobs, http://www.novarata.net/Linx310/fcg.shtml. You can make the trigger pull smoother for sure, and maybe a bit shorter.
Basically it's polishing the engagement surfaces: The underside of the trigger hook(s) The edge(s) of the hammer The back of the hammer The top of the disconnector 
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Posted: 3/30/2015 3:21:48 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:The tail of the disconnector contacting the rivet prevents the disconnector from forcing the forward movement of the trigger thus preventing trigger slap. Watch the animations again, or do a functions check and cycle an AK by hand with the dust cover off. You will see that the tail on the disconnector does not touch the rivet at any point. The rivet cannot and does not prevent forward movement of the trigger. The tail on the disconnector, as well as the trigger guard rivet, have nothing to do with trigger slap. |
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Posted: 4/3/2015 6:54:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Watch the animations again, or do a functions check and cycle an AK by hand with the dust cover off. You will see that the tail on the disconnector does not touch the rivet at any point. The rivet cannot and does not prevent forward movement of the trigger. The tail on the disconnector, as well as the trigger guard rivet, have nothing to do with trigger slap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:The tail of the disconnector contacting the rivet prevents the disconnector from forcing the forward movement of the trigger thus preventing trigger slap. Watch the animations again, or do a functions check and cycle an AK by hand with the dust cover off. You will see that the tail on the disconnector does not touch the rivet at any point. The rivet cannot and does not prevent forward movement of the trigger. The tail on the disconnector, as well as the trigger guard rivet, have nothing to do with trigger slap. I'll say again your animations can't explain why the Tapco fcg's cause trigger slap and the Arsenal ones don't. The only difference is what I pointed out that Arsenal has stated about the subject concerning their trigger groups. I've only seen those types of rivets on Saiga's and Bulgarian made AK's, Veprs might have them but I haven't seen one to be sure. Since putting the Arsenal FCG back in fixed the issue you need to rethink what I already said because you haven't explained it yet. On an ak like the wasr, a standard rivet is installed at that location, coincidentally, Tapco FCG's don't cause trigger slap in them. |
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Posted: 4/5/2015 2:06:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll say again your animations can't explain why the Tapco fcg's cause trigger slap and the Arsenal ones don't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll say again your animations can't explain why the Tapco fcg's cause trigger slap and the Arsenal ones don't. Not all Tapco G2 trigger groups cause trigger slap. Not all Aresenal trigger groups are immune from trigger slap. Quoted:Arsenal has stated about the subject concerning their trigger groups. I'm not aware of Arsenal having stated that. The document you provided a link to is from K-Var, not Arsenal. Quoted:
Since putting the Arsenal FCG back in fixed the issue you need to rethink what I already said because you haven't explained it yet. Its already been explained, you just need to think critically about it for a moment. If a FCG is experiencing trigger slap, its because the disconnector does not have enough movement to allow the hammer to pass freely. The rifle gets around this by causing the hammer pushing the trigger far enough forward until the hammer can get past the disconnector. Watching these videos of the FCG animation may clear things up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ9l1X1cdBc&feature=youtu.be&t=1m22s https://youtu.be/Ad_4whlPGzU?t=23s https://youtu.be/jasTr0EQjms?t=3m46s Note the position of the disconnector while the trigger is pulled, its elevated, as as such its not able to contact the rivet. The height of the rivet and a tail on the disconnector have nothing to do with preventing trigger slap. |
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Posted: 4/10/2015 8:15:06 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not aware of Arsenal having stated that. The document you provided a link to is from K-Var, not Arsenal. As I already stated Arsenal puts the same information in with their trigger groups when you buy them. You should know that if you've used them. |
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Posted: 4/13/2015 6:46:38 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As I already stated Arsenal puts the same information in with their trigger groups when you buy them. You should know that if you've used them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not aware of Arsenal having stated that. The document you provided a link to is from K-Var, not Arsenal. As I already stated Arsenal puts the same information in with their trigger groups when you buy them. You should know that if you've used them. I've gotten them from AK builder and they haven't come with that material. That document only comes with them if you buy from K-Var. Aresenal does not package it like that, K-Var does. |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 11:00:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've gotten them from AK builder and they haven't come with that material. That document only comes with them if you buy from K-Var. Aresenal does not package it like that, K-Var does. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not aware of Arsenal having stated that. The document you provided a link to is from K-Var, not Arsenal. As I already stated Arsenal puts the same information in with their trigger groups when you buy them. You should know that if you've used them. I've gotten them from AK builder and they haven't come with that material. That document only comes with them if you buy from K-Var. Aresenal does not package it like that, K-Var does. Oh really? If you buy the parts from midwayusa or Brownells thats the packaging they come in. If you go to Arsenals website under their FAQ you will find "Arsenal Inc. does not sell parts or accessories, only completed rifles. If you are interested in parts or accessories, please contact K-VAR Corp." So again tell me how you got your parts without the info in it? Whatever, time to move on, I find it difficult to believe what your saying now. |
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Posted: 4/24/2015 2:11:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whatever, time to move on, I find it difficult to believe what your saying now. I can see why you'd find it difficult to believe when you fail to understand the concept. Trigger slap is caused by the trigger moving forward when the hammer passes by the disconnector. If the disconnector cannot move far enough, it forces the trigger to rotate forward. If you believe this is untrue, prove it to be false by posting a picture or video of the disconnector touching the rivet while the trigger is being held back. |
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Posted: 6/16/2015 5:54:23 PM EDT
[#18]
There are three disconnector tail lengths.
Standard full auto is long and does not slap. Medium (tail partially ground off for import requirements, or for "Guardia" use (Romy Gs) Tail completely removed (some imports, Tapco G2.) The completely removed tail should not slap. There shouldn't be a way for it to slap. But some had the disconnector hole drilled too deep, reducing tension on spring. I can believe this, or an incorrect spring, could allow it to be hard enough by the hammer that it slaps the trigger out of inertia. But I haven't seen it. It's the only thing I can think of in this somplaint. The Arsenal is fabricated with a medium tail. Not long enough for the FA slector to engage, but long enough to slap a trigger. So it goes in conjunction with the large head trigger guard rivet to act as a shelf. Ak-, I'm not sure what you're trying to show in the second animation (very cool by the way). The hammer hits the disconnector, camming it back. The tail of the disconnector hite the rivet. It does NOT push the trigger back forward as you show. Now if you were to remove the (mauve?) rivet from the equation, then it would hit. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 1:03:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ak-, I'm not sure what you're trying to show in the second animation (very cool by the way). The hammer hits the disconnector, camming it back. The tail of the disconnector hite the rivet. It does NOT push the trigger back forward as you show. Thanks. The animation is showing the failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion, causing trigger slap. Like you said, ff the disconnector is not sized correctly, either too much material on the underside, improper hole depth, improper spring, etc, it'll cause the trigger to slap. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 8:51:40 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Thanks. The animation is showing the failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion, causing trigger slap. It doesn't. It shows the the disconnector bottom out on the rivet head as it is supposed to. Then the trigger magically slaps forward with nothing contacting it. |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 3:00:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't. It shows the the disconnector bottom out on the rivet head as it is supposed to. Then the trigger magically slaps forward with nothing contacting it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:Thanks. The animation is showing the failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion, causing trigger slap. It doesn't. It shows the the disconnector bottom out on the rivet head as it is supposed to. Then the trigger magically slaps forward with nothing contacting it. Watch it again closely, the disconnector does not move as it normally should, resulting in a malfuction.
Normally the hammer pushes the disconnector out of the way, the disconnector compresses its spring, and then catches the hammer. When the disconnector cannot move, i.e. compress the spring and catch the hammer, it forces the trigger to rotate forward thereby allowing the hammer enough space to move past the disconnector. This is what causes trigger slap. |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 8:20:49 AM EDT
[#22]
dude, this isn't rocket science. You have the disconnector moving the trigger. how is this happening? There is no contact.
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Posted: 6/24/2015 3:20:03 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have the disconnector moving the trigger. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have the disconnector moving the trigger. Thats the point, its showing the malfunction (trigger slap) that happens when the disconnector cannot move enough to allow the hammer to pass by. Quoted:
how is this happening? It could happen for a number of reasons, disconnector spring worn or not installed, the disconnector hole is not drilled to the proper depth, the disconnector itself is incorrectly sized, etc. The inability of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion is the cause of trigger slap. |
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Posted: 6/24/2015 8:26:23 AM EDT
[#24]
You seem unwilling or unable to answer the simple question - but I'll try one more time.
How is the trigger in your animation moving forward? The disconnector does not contact it. |
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Posted: 6/24/2015 9:11:40 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You seem unwilling or unable to answer the simple question - but I'll try one more time. How is the trigger in your animation moving forward? The disconnector does not contact it. Trigger return spring or disconnector spring tension. The disc. isn't slapping it. |
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Posted: 6/24/2015 9:27:52 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:The disc. isn't slapping it.
'zactly |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:00:13 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You seem unwilling or unable to answer the simple question - but I'll try one more time. How is the trigger in your animation moving forward? The disconnector does not contact it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You seem unwilling or unable to answer the simple question - but I'll try one more time. How is the trigger in your animation moving forward? The disconnector does not contact it. Your question was already answered: Quoted:It could happen for a number of reasons, disconnector spring worn or not installed, the disconnector hole is not drilled to the proper depth, the disconnector itself is incorrectly sized, etc. You realize the disconnector spring is not shown in the drawing, right? If the spring hole is not drilled to the proper depth and there is too much tension the disconnector may not move far enough. Further, if the disconnector is not properly sized it can cause the same issues because its not able to travel far enough to allow the hammer to pass, as shown here:
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Posted: 6/25/2015 8:45:03 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Your question was already answered: No, you did not answer the question. You continue to dodge it. Your animation does not demonstrate the mechanism of trigger slap in an Arsenal FCG. Because what you "drew" doesn't actually happen. You can't wish it into existence. Yes (as I stated earlier), a grossly defective trigger/disconnector casting (that could somehow still be assembled), could theoretically cause contact. I've installed over a thousand sets and never seen such a grossly deformed Arsenal. In fact, they are quite uniform. Which I guess makes sense, as molds do not typically expand to allow more metal to be poured in. Drawing a picture of a modification to a Century disconnector does not explain trigger slap in an Arsenal. Yes, an oversize spring "going solid" would function the same as an oversize disconnector. Basically disabling the rocking motion. Good luck in installing such a thing. Possible, perhaps. But the fact remains that your animation is something you made up, and does not depict an actual event. I don't believe the OP is accurately describing his mechanical system. He's missing something, somewhere. This makes diagnosis difficult. The event he describes does not make sense, because it physically cannot happen within the parameters he described. You drew an animation of a system other than that which he described, to illustrate an even that can not occur as drawn. The only way to make it occur is to imagine defective geometry in the parts or the spring - neither of which is represented. So while I'm jealous of your animation, and would like to utilize something similar in the classes I teach to forensic firearm examiners (so much cooler than my Power Points), it does not depict an actual event. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 12:00:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, you did not answer the question. You continue to dodge it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:Your question was already answered: No, you did not answer the question. You continue to dodge it. The question was answered, please re-read the post if you are unlcear. Quoted:
The only way to make it occur is to imagine defective geometry in the parts or the spring - neither of which is represented. Here are some updated animations, one including a spring hole that is too short, and a second showing a disconnector that has too much material on the bottom. If the disconnector is not sized correctly, as in this photo, the animation shows the malfunction that will occur:
If the spring well is not drilled to the proper depth in the disconnector, this animation shows the malfunction that occurs: 
Failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion is the cause of trigger slap. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 12:49:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Now you're finally understanding - good, we've had some progress!
Now what evidence is there that either of these two theoretical possibilities is actually happening in the Arsenal fire control group the OP Is using? Of the two, the spring pocket of insufficient depth or incorrect (too long) disconnector spring going solid, are the only ones that make sense. I'm not seeing why Arsenal would make a different mold, that was oversize, just for certain people, so lacking evidence to the contrary, I think we can rule out oversize disconnector for the Arsenal. TAPCO, they are far more likely to have an incorrect pocket depth, and actually had a recvall for them being too deep on some. I've had others that were not drilled at all. Failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion is one possible cause of trigger slap. Fixed it for you. Actually - we've been talking about the Arsenal which have a tail like in your animations. The TAPCO the OP was having trouble with, does not have a tail. Therefore full range of motion isn't an issue. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 2:51:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now you're finally understanding - good, we've had some progress! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now you're finally understanding - good, we've had some progress! We've both understood the entire time, I had to clarify the animation to get you on the same page. I assumed the first one was clear enough, but I was mistaken. Quoted:
Now what evidence is there that either of these two theoretical possibilities is actually happening in the Arsenal fire control group the OP Is using? We had been talking about a tapco disconenctor, not arsenal. Quoted:
Failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion is one possible cause of trigger slap. Fixed it for you. Please list the rest, I'm genuinely curious to hear your expertise. 
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:31:41 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We've both understood the entire time, I had to clarify the animation to get you on the same page. I assumed the first one was clear enough, but I was mistaken. Quote HistoryQuoted:
We've both understood the entire time, I had to clarify the animation to get you on the same page. I assumed the first one was clear enough, but I was mistaken. What you may or may not have understood isn't relevant. I can only go off what you posted. And the animation you posted did not demonstrate what you claimed it did. So I corrected you, and you corrected the animation. . . . .Sort-of. It is still of little value in this thread, except as generalized background information on trigger slap, because it does not demonstrate a Tapco G2, or an Arsenal - which you should know are substantively different than the full-auto GI you have pictured. We had been talking about a tapco disconenctor, not arsenal. The OP complained about slap on the G2 when he switched from the Arsenal. "We" have been talking about both as they are distinctly different. Your animation is even less representative of the Tapco than it is of the Arsenal. Quoted:
Failure of the disconnector to move through its full range of motion is one possible cause of trigger slap. Fixed it for you. Another is overtravel - PAST normal full range of motion. Which is unique to units like the TAPCO with the tail cut off. And why the Arsenal uses the rivet to LIMIT travel of the half-tail.. |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 2:45:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another is overtravel - PAST normal full range of motion. Which is unique to units like the TAPCO with the tail cut off. And why the Arsenal uses the rivet to LIMIT travel of the half-tail.. You are describing a system that does not exist. The disconnector cannot touch the rivet while the trigger is being pulled. To fire a round, the trigger must be pulled to the rear. The trigger is still held to the rear while the rifle cycles. In this position, the trigger is rotated forward and the disconnector is too far elevated to contact the rivet. If you believe this to be untrue, please post a photo of the trigger held to the rear and the disconnector touching the trigger guard rivet. |
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Posted: 6/30/2015 8:31:21 PM EDT
[#34]
This is true of a standard select fire disconnector
The contact marks on the rivet pad from the Arsenal mid-length disconnector tail indicate . . . well, "contact". And the trigger slap when not using the tall rivet is further evidence. My cutaways trigger groups (that I use in my classes for forensic firearms examiners), are all full-auto with the standard (short) rivet. When I have time, I'll get an Arsenal group installed with the tall rivet to demonstrate. I have to ask, though - why do you think Bulgaria switched to the tall rivet? Maybe they were just bored? 
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Posted: 7/8/2015 1:05:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I have time, I'll get an Arsenal group installed with the tall rivet to demonstrate. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing evidence of the disconnecor being able to touch the rivet while the trigger is pulled. |
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Posted: 7/8/2015 8:42:38 AM EDT
[#36]
What is the purpose of this rivet?
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Posted: 7/10/2015 2:56:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is the purpose of this rivet? Holding the trigger guard in place. But we digress. I thought you were going to provide photographic evidence of the disconnector contacting the rivet while the trigger is being pulled? |
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Posted: 7/10/2015 10:29:50 AM EDT
[#38]
No, we don't digress - it is the "evidence" that demonstrates your lack of understanding of the topic.
What was the purpose of changing the inside head of the rear trigger guard rivet, to a tall platform? You know, the one that (by pure coincidence) sits under the tail of the disconnector? Since you insist it is not a disconnector stop (the impact marks must also be coincidental), what do you think motivated the change? |
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Posted: 7/13/2015 1:19:52 AM EDT
[#39]
We do indeed digress, you are changing the subject.
Please provide photographic evidence supporting your assertion that the disconnector touches the rivet while the tigger is being pulled. |
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Posted: 7/13/2015 8:25:11 AM EDT
[#40]
(sigh) I pointed out that your animation did not depict what actually occurs in an AK, and so you changed them. Better, but they still do not represent either an Arsenal or a TAPCO FCG, which is what this thread was about. There is no digression, I'm just not letting you dodge the question. The large head the Bulgarians added to the inside of the trigger guard rivet - that is for what? You know, the one that is located directly under the diconnector tail? Is it for A. Decoration B. A stop C. Other |
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Posted: 7/14/2015 12:41:56 AM EDT
[#41]
Again, you digress. Where are your photos?
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Posted: 7/14/2015 8:20:03 AM EDT
[#42]
again, you evade. answer the question.
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Posted: 7/15/2015 1:30:38 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
again, you evade. answer the question. 
You were the one who stated you would provide photos to support your assertion first. Since you cannot provide photographic evidence, you must have realized you were wrong and are afraid to admit it. Further, I already answered your question, the rivet exists to hold the trigger guard in place. Now, your photos of the disconnector touching the rivet while the trigger is being pulled, please. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 8:32:47 AM EDT
[#44]
Yes, when I have time to modify one of my cutaway receivers (with a rivet I'll have to order from K-var), I can take a picture of it, to demonstrate this event. An event that should be self-evident, by answering the question of "What the tall Arsenal rivet for? (That would be the one under the disconnector tail- the one which often has contact marks on it). Saying it is "to keep the trigger guard in place" is disingenuous. We know what the original short rivet was for. The question is about the new and different rivet that Bulgaria added to their imorts with the semiauto disconnector.
As you can see, my cutaways use the short rivet, and factory full auto parts. Your animations are pointless because they do not demonstrate the function of TAPCO or Arsenal fire controls group - the difference between them, vis-a-vis the trigger slap issue, was the point of this thread. Your animations also incorrectly demonstrated a regular fire control group, until I corrected you. Posting pictures of my full-auto cutaways will not demonstrate anything useful. Like your animations, they do not answer the question. Modifying them will take time and effort - You simply aren't on my priority list. 
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Posted: 7/16/2015 1:54:40 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Modifying them will take time and effort - You simply aren't on my priority list. Weird, because you seem to have enough time to waste here arguing instead of taking photos. Do you have a photo of the disconnector touching the rivet while the trigger is pulled or not? |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 8:34:19 AM EDT
[#46]
I understand you're confused, but really, this isn't that difficult.
Do you see the rivet? Can you find it, or do you need more help? Ok, now which type of rivet is it in this cutaway? Oh. . . . it's a short rivet? Good boy! Now why would Bulgarian semis with the Arsenal disconnectors have switched to the tall rivet? And in what way would photographing a full auto FCG with a short rivet, illustrate a semiauto with a tall rivet? Oh, it wouldn't.? It would be useless and pointless? Just like your animations? Correct you are, you finally get it . . .. or not. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:46:50 AM EDT
[#47]
Good use of ad hominem attacks to detract from the fact that you haven't supported your assertion with evidence.
Do you have photos supporting your assertion or don't you? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 8:27:29 AM EDT
[#48]
Good use of distraction, but back to the rivet head question you keep evading. The Bulgarians made the rivet head tall on the semis, underneath the disconnector tail . . .. Why?
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Posted: 7/20/2015 1:17:19 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good use of distraction, but back to the rivet head question you keep evading. The Bulgarians made the rivet head tall on the semis, underneath the disconnector tail . . .. Why? You are still evading. I've already answered that question, yet you keep evading providing photos. The only explanation for your dodging and evasiveness is that the evidence does not support your claim. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:59:02 AM EDT
[#50]
You are still evading. You know the evidence does not support your claim. You know that the large rivet head is a stop for the disconnecetor tail, and not merely "to hold the trigger guard on" as you so disingenuously pretend.
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