Can you explain to us what your allure is with .223 AK's? Maybe you've explained it in a video and we've missed it. That might help us understand the situation better. As of now, my understanding is because you don't like AR's and because .223 AK's are cool. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with either preference.

However, you said in your article,


(bolding my own) without explaining why, other than aesthetic, ergonomic, and clear personal considerations and preferences in your description. We understand that it's in the testing phase, but it's also very clear you have some sort of vested interest.

You're knocking AK "purists" of being unduly harsh for taking practicality and the value proposition into the equation, but in your quote you said "['The Sexy'] is the ultimate AK for the prepared citizen", which means you endorse its use outside of the pure collectors/fun space. Without some qualifying data to show that it's better than rifles competing in the same space, inevitably, we're going to compare it to the AR-15, Tavor, and other rifles shooting the same caliber because it shares similar features.

I'm all for buying rifles because they're cool, but understand that some of the criticisms are based on what you have said about "Teh Sexy", and are not baseless.

ETA: formatting, emphasis, grammar.

Got it.

Since your blog post had said you "picked this up" and that you "personally place this AK above all others in my collection", I took those statements to mean it was your rifle.

I wasn't questioning your objectivity as much as I was wondering about the basis for the review.  It's just human nature...if anyone (myself included) is given a nice product to use for free, that person is probably going to be more inclined to have a favorable opinion than if they had paid $2,000+ out of their own pocket for that same product.  I'm sure I would really enjoy using this rifle, myself.  I don't think I'd like it as much if I had to pay the full likely asking price for it though.

And to put my comment in full context, I sometimes wonder about gun reviews in any regard, as I've noticed that some Internet gun reviewers (not you in particular) are sometimes less than entirely forthcoming about any consideration they may have received for their reviews.  I think many of these bloggers didn't get the memo that as of 2000, the FTC requires full disclosure any time a testimonial, endorsement or review is accompanied by consideration (anything of value received) from the company that makes or sells the product.  Jeff Quinn, of GunBlast, is notorious for this.  He once admitted that he sometimes gets to keep the guns he reviews, but you won't ever see him acknowledge this in one of those reviews.  He must not think it's relevant, although I would disagree.

Not for me.

while it may be great I love anything krebs makes. I have to ask what did you pay for it?  

that changes and makes things relative.

Yup.

This is why I prefer the experiences of members here over compensated internet "experts" who spew a lot of adjectives and not much substance, it's gotten ludicrous really.

As for youtubers, i'll take Plouffedaddy's reviews over anyone's, short and to the point, actual tests, facts, and not bunch of fawning BS. Hickock45 is pretty cool if you like longer reviews.

The AK that is the subject of this thread, is not a terrible piece, but there's certainly nothing that out of the ordinary about it, certainly not 2500.00 dollars worth, that's just asinine, for 2500 bucks I can build a 1/2 MOA AR, or buy a Russian or Bulgarian AK that's badass to start with, and turn it into a real crowd-pleaser AND buy expensive optics AND buy a couple cases of ammo.  Bonus: I wouldn't insult anybody's intelligence by offering them Tapco products on a rifle that expensive. Just my .02

....aaahh

Nevermind.

I can attest to this as well

To each his own but I don't get it.  The Kreb's guns are just way too expensive IMO.

The key mod rail interests me though for a Vepr build I want to do....if I could ever find a square back 5.45 Vepr.

I'm new to the AK platform, so take my comments with a grain of salt...

For me, the allure of the AK is that its different than my AR's, fun to shoot, just as if not more reliable than my AR's, and significantly cheaper to shoot.
I stayed away from AK's for a very long time because there was no aftermarket add ons for it to improve it. What you it came with/as is what you got. And I didn't like how they came and couldn't change that.

That's changed a lot in the last 10 years or so.

I can customize my AK's to some degree, and there are top notch customizers/builders that can get things done that I cant at my house.

For me, this rifle is neat, would be fun to shoot, but I have no desire to own it.

Shooting .223/5.56 is more expensive than 7.62x39 or 5.45x39
Its a bonus that it uses AR magazines, but it changes the manual of arms with the AK platform.
The barrel is cut shorter, and the muzzle break is permanently attached. This is great if you happen to like that particular muzzle break. I've never shot it, so I don't know. But if I don't, its going to cost ALOT more to replace it with something else instead.
As mentioned before, the stock doesn't fold. For that amount of money it would be nice if it were an option.
For the suggested price, I can buy two of the SAM7SF's if I chose to do so, or one SAM7SF and a VEPR, or a Tavor and a Glock....etc

I'm not in anyway suggesting that the rifle isn't worth the money, (it isn't to me, but that's just me), and I'm certainly not suggesting that Mark Krebs doesn't deserve the money he's charging for the work he puts into this rifle......

But spending what is a lot of money for me on an AK that shoots more expensive ammunition, has a different manual of arms than every other AK I've currently got, the stock doesn't fold, the muzzle break is permanently attached, it most likely isn't as accurate as my AR's, doesn't seem worth it in my eyes.

I get the appeal for you.

But like many others here, it strikes me as an AK trying to be an AR. (5.56/223 cal, AR magazines, collapsible but non folding stock)

I do however, like the keymod rail and I certainly appreciate the tech involved in making an AK accept AR magazines.

I am looking forward to a video review of this rifle, Mac.

The animosity towards a reliable contributor to this forum and the AK community in general is a bit concerning to me.

I like it.  I wouldn't pay the asking price for it, but to be fair I don't think I've ever paid that much for any rifle.  

It definitely needs a better pistol grip.  I hate seeing cheep Tapco SAW grips on otherwise high end AKs.

tah

Because the $2000 AK pictured is a functional step backwards. Pretty simple there.  I'm surprised this side of the house had to point that out.

What makes that rifle a functional step backwards?

Why you buy this for twice as much as a jeep?

It's a cool one off but not an industry changer.

Also between the mag well and mega hand guard how much does it weigh?

Posted on the first page of the thread:

So dissent now equals animosity?

I generally respect MAC's opinion and I very much appreciate the high quality content he and his team produce. That said, I'm just not seeing the appeal of this particular product. The criticisms that have been voiced by other members concerning this rifle are quite valid...

The sig will win handily!

I can't wait to see the video on it. I think it is a pretty cool idea now that I've thought about it for a day. Definitely not a truck gun (like my only ak) but something cool to have in the safe like my Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester.

Maybe we should tone it down a little bit with the insults. It's one thing to question MAC's assertions, and offer constructive feedback. It's another to call him derogatory names and post silly photos with comments laced with sarcasm.

With that said, I'm a little surprised at Tim's reactions to any dissenting voices and opinions. The fact that he can't acknowledge or try to understand where we're even coming from is confusing. It's a departure from the objectivity we've come to enjoy in his reviews. Of course we all have our preferences, but his reviews have been mostly performance driven, while focused on subjects he enjoys. However, "I like AK's" != "Best .223 rifle for the prepared citizen". Taking it personally only hurts himself. Not everyone will share the same opinions.

His latest reply on the blog had a lot of strange, passive-aggressive undertones. Like he's talking down to the previous poster, who actually replied quite intelligently.

Tim, we love you, but someone spiked the kool-aid and gave you a sip.  Saying things like



doesn't help your argument (comes off as elitist).  Please don't pull a nutnfancy, you're one of the few well-known AK fans with a famous channel.  You're hurting your credibility - this isn't about AK purists getting mad about Magpul, this isn't about hating AK improvements, it's about cost/'benefit and practicality.

It's a cool design made by the best out there, and I can't wait to see the video.  Perhaps our opinions will change when we see it in action.

I am almost starting to feel guilty for not liking it just out of respect for Tim and his opinion (especially considering he has actual experience with it and i've only seen a few pics).  I love AKs too...  i rather have an AK than an AR but i'd rather have an AK in 545 or 762.  In one of those SHTF situations everyone always likes to talk about, 223 and AR mags will probably be more available here in the US so that is probably a practical advantage to this thing.  I really just don't feel like if i had only $2500 to spend on one rifle, i would be knocking down kreb's door to get this thing but if i was just flat out rich, i would probably pick one up... its kinda cool... its different... im rich... whatever.  But I feel like there is A LOT I can do to an AK with $2500 to make it more effective than put the keymod rail and an AR style mag well / last round hold open on it.  I am looking forward to the video and seeing this thing in a little more detail.... and maybe hearing a few things that aren't so awesome about it for good measure hah.

because its a turd.

here is what is wrong with it:

1. it fires 5.56. FUCK THAT NOISE. BTDT. case of GT 7.62x39 is $250 5.45 surplus is $180 per 1080. 5.56? $400+ case. its the 1st rifle ammo to sell out in a panic followed by 7.62 nato. 5.56 also does not feed or extract as reliably as 5.45 or 7.62x39. when 5.56 was $900 a case 7.62x39 was $380. at the end of the day you have to feed it otherwise its a safe queen.

2. shitty flimsy 5.56 mags

3. no co-witness for optics on that krebs rail system the ultimak and the MI top covers can

4. vltor tube and magpul stock. both work great for irons optics less so but its doable. stock does not fold and the vltor QD sockets are not limited rotation.

5. a tapco pistol grip. TAPCO. really? TAPCO? for real? on an $1800+ rifle. TAPCO?

6. $1800+. for that coin there are better rifles available.

the rail isn't terribly priced its like $225 on Krebs site.

Its not that the AK shouldn't evlove but this rifle is not evolution. its $1800 for a rifle that doesn't realistically do anything better than any other $1800 5.56 rifle on the market. infact it does a few things worse.

You can't co witness an optic, no monolithic rail, base AK sights, no AMBI selector.

I have 8 guns total and each and every single one of them is owned because they are an excerise in practicality. I am not a gun nut. I do not get all excited over shot show, or what ever fuckery that is going on in the "industry" thats designed to seperate people from their money.

I have 2 glocks (same caliber same gen feeds from the same mags) 2 AKs (same caliber, same mags, setup nearly identical) a remington 1100, a 700 in .308 and a pair of .22 rifles one of which can cycle virtually any .22 ammo including CCI's new Quiet Ammo.

if I am going to spend $2000 on a rifle I am going to buy absoulty the best rifle for my needs that my $2k is going to buy.

and this AK15 isn't it.

this. usually he reviews stuff that is of incrediable value. look at those hunter town arms supressors he reviewed. is there a better line of supressors for the coin than those? I think not.

Don't feel guilty, it's not necessary to agree with everything I say or like.  We're all wired differently which is why it's good to have so many choices.

 































 

You should see some of the stuff those guys are working on... I've been impressed with how that company has progressed.  

 

Any guess on when you will be uploading a video on it?

...and you're likely not alone.



I do think a 5.56mm AK is practical, especially one that uses PMAG's. 5.45x39 ammo can be gone tomorrow with a pen stroke and that leaves what domestic producers to fill the void?  Right, not many.  Hornady and their VMAX line?  That's a bit pricey for most people.  5.45x39 mags come and go from the market.  One day they're everywhere for $10 each and the next day they're nearly impossible to find and when you do locate one you'll pay $30 or more for it.  The PMAG, and its relatively stable $12-ish price, is a great alternative for a "prepper" living in the US.  Heck, I probably have 60+ PMAGs at this point and about 30 L5's. I like being able to standardize on magazines for most of my rifles, it makes things a bit easier for me.



Is the Krebs rifle the ultimate 5.56mm AK?  For me, yes -- it is.  I've not seen one I like better.  If you know of a 5.56mm AK that's currently produced that beats it, let me know as I'm completely missing it. Is it for everyone, I think we can agree it's not.



 

In the next two weeks.  I need to do some accuracy testing to see what kind of groups I can get out of it.  I also want to get it to the 500 yard line to see how it handles the 24" ringer. I hope to do that next weekend.



If I get to keep the rifle in my safe, I'll take it to most of the events I attend and, like my Tavor, I'll let anyone interested shoot it.  I think once you handle it you'll have a favorable opinion of it. The new rail system feels outstanding to me, it totally changes (in a positive way) the feel of the AK.



 

BTDT. Back in 94 I had a 7.62x39 rifle (sks) and those fucking ass hats at oly made a pistol in 7.62x39 and the ATF declared Chicom steel core to be AP and Clinton cut off imports from Norinco.

Guess what happened? 7.62x39 shot up to $7 a box from $2 a box and all we could get was remington umc. Like a jackass i ditched that rifle. but it was a temp situation and russian 7.62 replaced chicom 7.62. if russian ammo was banned from importation here is what would happen. in the near term it would become very expensive. long term however someone would buy all the tooling (probably hornady) to make the ammo here. capitalism always always fills a vacuum

as for an ambi lever I don't need it either. I manipulate the current one with my right hand when i'm shooting off the left side. however $1800 rifles in all other platforms have them. its like two companies selling similar cars and they cost the same but one has AC and the other doesn't.

You don't care co witness about it but I do. the reason its important is not for optic failure but for switching on the fly from irons to RDS and back. When I shoot between 5-25 yards I don't use the RDS. the 3 moa dot is small and harder to pick up than the giant FSB with ears and post. I use the "poor mans eotech" method for these close shots. longer shots I use the dot.

I'd like to see Krebs re enginner that rail to envolpe an ultimak gas tube mount. that would be the shit. a rail low enough for co witness but a light weight hand guard that free floats the barrel and alows for the hand forward grip. that would be alot of win right there. Ultimak makes a rail that stretchs that far but it clamps to the barrel, is heavy as hell, and does cover the gas block like the krebs rail does.


as for AR mags and ammo being available in the SHTF. yeah they will be available but so will the rifle that uses them. the previous owner won't be needing it.

I'm excited to see how it does at 500 yards. Sounds like it will be a good video. I really do like the idea of a 5.56 ak that takes pmags. Especially since you can get steel case .223 for pretty close to what 7.62x39 cost. Keep us posted on how it does and have fun with it!

MAC or plouffedaddy,

How does it compare to the Krebs KV-13?

http://www.krebscustom.com/mediacenter/images/kv-13.jpg

I don't have one to play with.  I would be curious as to how the rear sight is mounted to the gun, aside from what appears to be the obvious.  

 

Arsenal makes 5.56 AKs for half the price...and they look like an AK.

oooo now that on the other hand looks alot more useful. folder, stock is setup correctly the taller sites, and looks like it co witnesses and its in a use full caliber.

Arsenal makes 5.56 AKs for half the price...and they look like an AK.

No to mention it's a Vepr, with an RPK receiver and a heavy hammer forged target barrel....still got the damn Tapco grip though....but definitely shinier than the poor mangled Saiga that started this thread.

Oh yeah, and dig that FIME krylon job especially, really cool looking as ordinary Hoppe's # 9 melts it off, nothing says "Arse-nal" like paint bleeding off yer rifle.

I'm with you there. That should really be a US Palm, lets be honest with ourselves.

I still say bring back the KTRs.

Guys,
I'm surprised that people jump so quickly to conclusions. None of us, with exception of Tim had a pleasure to handle this rifle. We don't know how it shoots, handles, how is action working on it and etc. At this point we can only rely on his first impressions. That's why i hate buying weapons through the internet, because very often picture doesn't really tell the true story...Now, i'm not saying that this rifle is the best 5.56mm you can get, the same principles apply, i can't do that just by looking at the price and pictures...let's relax, wait for the full video review and we will see what is going to happen...

 

Meh., put on a SGM tactical fore-end + TWS rail and I would like it better, but that is just me...

SGM:

I think krebs refinishes the rifles.... the arsenal/fime finish does suck ass.  I refinished my sgl before i even shot it.

You mispelled Hogue. I fixed it for you.

who the hell uses hoppes #9? its 2013. there are alot better cleaners that don't melt anything. LPX and CLP are the two that i use.

i could care less what arsenal or krebs or anybody uses to finish their rifles. its getting the krylon/rustoleum treatment anyway.