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Posted: 1/6/2011 5:32:49 PM EDT
[#1]
I've run AK's with no more issues than my AR's. The only "dedicated" AK class I can think of right now is by SUarez.
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Posted: 1/6/2011 5:35:39 PM EDT
[#2]
This really isn't the forum for this.
There is a thread "what parts break in a carbine class" that will address questions you have with what causes ARs to go down most frequently. Look around in the AK section to see if there is a similar thread. Also check the "Training" forums to see if they have anything along the same lines. |
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Posted: 1/6/2011 5:47:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Moving to AK Discussions.
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Posted: 1/6/2011 5:50:41 PM EDT
[#4]
I've seen AKs have feeding problems in 3-gun matches, more so than ARs.
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Posted: 1/6/2011 6:21:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Are tink maybe dis belong in da Pirate Forumn!
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Posted: 1/6/2011 6:23:26 PM EDT
[#6]
took Sonny's class with a newly built 74 and my krink. Only FTF was b/c my thumb got in the way of the charging handle when shooting with my off arm.
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Posted: 1/6/2011 6:28:23 PM EDT
[#7]
LAV's class.
I have taken his AK class twice and several of his non-ak classes. Generally, there are few problems with anything at his classes I have observed. People have seemed to stop bringing shit guns to classes in the past couple of years or they are getting weeded out in the intro classes and I ain't seeing them.. |
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Posted: 1/6/2011 6:32:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
took Sonny's class with a newly built 74 and my krink. Only FTF was b/c my thumb got in the way of the charging handle when shooting with my off arm. I hope that was a FTFeed, otherwise, ouch! |
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Posted: 1/6/2011 7:08:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
took Sonny's class with a newly built 74 and my krink. Only FTF was b/c my thumb got in the way of the charging handle when shooting with my off arm. been there done that.. mine was behind the handle 
o.p. I ran my amd in a night class. The fireballs and concussion were the bane of other shooters (although they all thought it was cool as hell) My biggest problem was the time it took to disengage safety after the beep. We were beginning from the low ready and safety on was mandatory (easy to thumb off on the AR when you come up, but takes much time on the AK) Only other thing, when knocking a spent mag out under stress, they can go 20 yards downrange  I tend to push my hand through the mag release and shove the mag like it has the plague.
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Posted: 1/6/2011 7:30:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: not as bad as one would think. In fact it had to happen more than once for me to realize my thumb was slipping up. Quoted: took Sonny's class with a newly built 74 and my krink. Only FTF was b/c my thumb got in the way of the charging handle when shooting with my off arm. I hope that was a FTFeed, otherwise, ouch! |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:14:49 AM EDT
[#11]
I took a Pat Rogers class about two years ago where the shooter to my left ran an AK the entire class.
He did pretty well with it, had no issues keeping up with it, and no failures with rifle or ammo that I am aware of. And I was pretty aware of him as he was raining hot brass on me for 3 days. And speaking of Pat he was offering an AK specific class at one time and LAV does AK classes, not sure if Magpul Dynamics does or not. |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:50:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Tactical Response has a "AK Operator" class.... You run one of their full-auto Ak's.... Or you can bring your own.
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/course.php?courseID=68 |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 4:09:47 AM EDT
[#13]
In a carbine class there are usually headshots mixed into double tap drills.
Ar15 hits 2 inches COM and a head shot. AK hits one COM, one right shoulder , and off center hairline. Yes. Out of three drills you make the shots "work" but the point of the drills is to get better hits. The AK is too "general" a weapon. AR platform= Sharp fixed blade knife AK platform= Folding knife |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 4:52:49 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: In a carbine class there are usually headshots mixed into double tap drills. Ar15 hits 2 inches COM and a head shot. AK hits one COM, one right shoulder , and off center hairline. Yes. Out of three drills you make the shots "work" but the point of the drills is to get better hits. The AK is too "general" a weapon. AR platform= Sharp fixed blade knife AK platform= Folding knife I think this is dependent on caliber and mostly on ones skill with the AK. I'm not saying I'm a bad ass ninja with an AK, but it's my experience that a 5.45x39 74 has much better follow up and a lot less recoil. These factors with a good shooter behind the weapon can make these shots not impossible. AR platform= Sharp fixed blade knife AK platform= Folding knife this statement equals uninformed or unfamiliar..... |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 5:31:03 AM EDT
[#15]
I only own AKs so that is all I am using in the carbine training classes I take. I have taken 2 AK specific classes, but the majority of classes I take are just general carbine training classes. In the last 1.5 years, I have taken around 7 carbine training classes, and I have had exactly one failure, but it was the magazine. A weak spring crimped up in the mag (steel combloc) somehow and basically all the rounds collapsed inside the mag. Outside of this issue my AKs have run flawlessly averaging about 500 rounds each day wiithout any cleaning or lube in rain, mud, etc. I primarily use a Vector and sometimes use my Krebs or Draco SBR. I also have not noticed any other AK failures in these classes. I think most AK issues you are going to see are either going to be mag or ammo related, but it is a tool afterall so I bring extra parts to the classes. I generally keep a spare bolt and recoil spring assembly.
Regarding the safety that someone else mentioned, I have taken several carbine classes where it was required to have the safety on when not firing so I switched to the Krebs safety selector. It is a little expensive, but it is worth it if you take classes and have to constantly engage the AK safety. |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:17:29 PM EDT
[#16]
I the 1 AK class that I have been to i think my Ak was the only AK to have a malf.
I put a glob of grease on the carrier/bolt and rails thinking more is better, it wasn't. There were several LE officers running AR rifles and they had a few malf but I don't Know what they were because they all ran off when i started shooting the AMD.
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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:38:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Fixed blade vs folding blade?
Buck 110 says hi |
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Posted: 1/7/2011 11:47:37 PM EDT
[#18]
I have seen no more malfunctions with AKs than ARs in various classes. We typically see the issues come into play when people bring lower quality guns/parts to the class regardless of platform.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 8:02:17 AM EDT
[#19]
I've been regularly attending an informal carbine match in my area for years and usually run an AK. Granted, I've only ever run a 7.62 one of those times (underfolder and I actually did pretty well) and all the other occasions have a 74 being run. But I seem to do just fine with mine. I used an SGL-31 with a Russian Kobra red dot and finished 4th out of a couple dozen people last month. If you know speed reloads and some of the techniques on how to maximize your efficiency with an AK then I don't see any reason you wouldn't be able to keep up with an AR. My one-handed stance with my Makarov pistol is what cost me seconds on that last match. Had I run a different pistols I'd have probably done better.
Most everybody that comes out there gives me shit because they're all AR guys but I don't care. Run some timed drills against other guys and you'll get some real-world practical sense about what works and what doesn't. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:02:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
In a carbine class there are usually headshots mixed into double tap drills. Ar15 hits 2 inches COM and a head shot. AK hits one COM, one right shoulder , and off center hairline. Yes. Out of three drills you make the shots "work" but the point of the drills is to get better hits. The AK is too "general" a weapon. AR platform= Sharp fixed blade knife AK platform= Folding knife I have never had problems keeping my shots within a small area on the upper chest with an AK at reasonable ranges at the classes. AK accuracy is a non-issue at sub-100m ranges. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:03:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
I have seen no more malfunctions with AKs than ARs in various classes. We typically see the issues come into play when people bring lower quality guns/parts to the class regardless of platform. Word^ There is Steak and Shit to be had on both platforms. Pick your meal. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:46:14 AM EDT
[#22]
I have participated in several AR/M-16/M4 classes. I have considered changing things up and giving it a go with my SGL-31 but for the life of me I can't figure out how to be efficient without a bolt hold open when the magazine is empty.
I would appreciate some advice or input on how efficient AK operators work into and through an empty magazine. I understand the rapid magazine change techniques, it is just that "click... no bang, oh shit" moment that concerns me versus the different sound, feel, and visual confirmation an AR gives you when it runs dry of ammo. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 2:31:10 PM EDT
[#23]
I would assume that with an AK, the tac reload becomes more important.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 2:36:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I have participated in several AR/M-16/M4 classes. I have considered changing things up and giving it a go with my SGL-31 but for the life of me I can't figure out how to be efficient without a bolt hold open when the magazine is empty. I would appreciate some advice or input on how efficient AK operators work into and through an empty magazine. I understand the rapid magazine change techniques, it is just that "click... no bang, oh shit" moment that concerns me versus the different sound, feel, and visual confirmation an AR gives you when it runs dry of ammo. Roll the rifle left and reach over the top and rack the CH. It's simple. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 3:07:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Most AKs will work just fine for carbine classes and any instructor that's remotely decent will be able to teach you how to operate your AK efficiently.
AKs are honestly pretty straightforward - get a click, dump the mag, pop in a fresh mag and rack the bolt. (rack over or under with your non-dominant hand - whatever works best for your body type). As for the AR/AK comparison, it's the singer not the song. 
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Posted: 1/8/2011 4:19:29 PM EDT
[#26]
I have shot an AK in the local matches and really don't see any disadvantage to it. I can hit the 200 yard targets consistently (with iron sights) and have no trouble keeping two quick shots in the "zero" ring of an IDPA target at 100 yards or less. As for reloading, I shoot left handed (left eye dominant) but am right handed. It is really quick to drop a mag, reload, and charge the gun with my right hand, while getting the sights on the next target. Generally I just shoot until it goes click, unless I am moving to a new bank of targets and then I will do reload while moving (dump pouch or big pocket is handy for the partly loaded mag to go into).
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:06:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I have participated in several AR/M-16/M4 classes. I have considered changing things up and giving it a go with my SGL-31 but for the life of me I can't figure out how to be efficient without a bolt hold open when the magazine is empty. I would appreciate some advice or input on how efficient AK operators work into and through an empty magazine. I understand the rapid magazine change techniques, it is just that "click... no bang, oh shit" moment that concerns me versus the different sound, feel, and visual confirmation an AR gives you when it runs dry of ammo. when you get a click, transition...if you dont have a secondary, you could just go into an emergency reload, cause a click means youre either empty, or the primer didnt go off, either way when you do a mag change and rack the bolt the problem should be fixed... |
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Posted: 1/9/2011 9:42:50 AM EDT
[#28]
The failures Ive seen with my own AK's are a extractor spring break on a Chicom , and a bulgie AK had a extractor stem break.Both of these are commie made parts.. But they are also wear items.Shit happens and I believe them to be rare enough. Most issues is with USA compnents...Mixed rifles....WD
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Posted: 1/9/2011 10:49:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I get that and that sounds about the the best you can do given the design. It seems that the AR system has a real advantage in giving immediate feedback on an empty magazine condition. With the AK, you could send you last round just as you come into an opportunity to take advantage of cover and you would be taking a breath and preparing to start moving and shooting again while your chamber is empty and you wouldn't know it unless you do a "press check". I realize both systems have their pros and cons. I guess that is why I should run my SGL31 in the next carbine class I attend, so I can get out of the AR method "rut" and do it the AK way.Quoted: I have participated in several AR/M-16/M4 classes. I have considered changing things up and giving it a go with my SGL-31 but for the life of me I can't figure out how to be efficient without a bolt hold open when the magazine is empty. I would appreciate some advice or input on how efficient AK operators work into and through an empty magazine. I understand the rapid magazine change techniques, it is just that "click... no bang, oh shit" moment that concerns me versus the different sound, feel, and visual confirmation an AR gives you when it runs dry of ammo. when you get a click, transition...if you dont have a secondary, you could just go into an emergency reload, cause a click means youre either empty, or the primer didnt go off, either way when you do a mag change and rack the bolt the problem should be fixed... |
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Posted: 1/9/2011 11:54:57 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
With the AK, you could send you last round just as you come into an opportunity to take advantage of cover and you would be taking a breath and preparing to start moving and shooting again while your chamber is empty and you wouldn't know it unless you do a "press check". When you're not shooting, you should be moving. When you're not shooting and you're not moving, you should be reloading. Follow those rules and you'll never leave cover without a FULL magazine. |
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Posted: 1/9/2011 2:11:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
With the AK, you could send you last round just as you come into an opportunity to take advantage of cover and you would be taking a breath and preparing to start moving and shooting again while your chamber is empty and you wouldn't know it unless you do a "press check". When you're not shooting, you should be moving. When you're not shooting and you're not moving, you should be reloading. Follow those rules and you'll never leave cover without a FULL magazine. yup, if youve been shooting quite a bit, do a tac reload before you leave cover.. |
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Posted: 1/9/2011 2:57:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I get that and that sounds about the the best you can do given the design. It seems that the AR system has a real advantage in giving immediate feedback on an empty magazine condition. With the AK, you could send you last round just as you come into an opportunity to take advantage of cover and you would be taking a breath and preparing to start moving and shooting again while your chamber is empty and you wouldn't know it unless you do a "press check". I realize both systems have their pros and cons. I guess that is why I should run my SGL31 in the next carbine class I attend, so I can get out of the AR method "rut" and do it the AK way.
Quoted:
I have participated in several AR/M-16/M4 classes. I have considered changing things up and giving it a go with my SGL-31 but for the life of me I can't figure out how to be efficient without a bolt hold open when the magazine is empty. I would appreciate some advice or input on how efficient AK operators work into and through an empty magazine. I understand the rapid magazine change techniques, it is just that "click... no bang, oh shit" moment that concerns me versus the different sound, feel, and visual confirmation an AR gives you when it runs dry of ammo. when you get a click, transition...if you dont have a secondary, you could just go into an emergency reload, cause a click means youre either empty, or the primer didnt go off, either way when you do a mag change and rack the bolt the problem should be fixed... It's really not that big of a deal. If you get a click and the threat is under 25m, pull your blaster and finish the threat while fighting your way back to cover. More than that, haul ass to cover while performing an emergency reload. It really isn't that much of a disadvantage over an AR. I bemoan the lack of a straight magwell and the ability Tac load while holding the other mage more than that. |
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Posted: 1/9/2011 4:05:22 PM EDT
[#33]
When you're not shooting, you should be moving.
When you're not shooting and you're not moving, you should be reloading. I will add you should be shooting AND moving or reoading AND moving at the same time unless you are under cover. |
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Posted: 1/9/2011 9:57:52 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 1/10/2011 2:33:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Most of the carbine classes I've been too have AR15's, with various issues as stated by Pat_Rogers in past articles. I was wondering if any courses have featured AK's and were the failures similar to AR's like mags, extractors, lubrication, etc. The AR failures seemed to be more related to quality issues when it was purely a component failure. I was wondering if the AK had the same quality component failure issues? In the past, the AK's had fairly good quality with the commie parts in them, but I've seen a lot of crap lately coming in with US receivers and trigger groups. Thanks. thats for sure! is he not the guy that had a 'quality brand" ar that has over 20,000 plus rounds on it. If its a tp tier AR, they are tough to beat. I would think the best bet would be a pro built bulgy or "quality" ak74 type with a bulgy brake on it |
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Posted: 1/10/2011 4:37:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
When you're not shooting, you should be moving.
When you're not shooting and you're not moving, you should be reloading. I will add you should be shooting AND moving or reoading AND moving at the same time unless you are under cover. It's best to keep the lessons simple. In that vein, reloading should always be done under cover, unless there is no cover, in which case you'll probably end up dead. Of course, all this becomes perfectly clear the second time someone shoots at you, assuming you survive the first. |
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Posted: 1/10/2011 7:47:11 PM EDT
[#37]
I have never participated in a carbine class. Are SBRs allowed?
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Posted: 1/10/2011 9:20:39 PM EDT
[#38]
I've heard in Vietnam, the enemy used three green tracers at the bottom of the magazine to let them know they were almost empty. Of course, our boys knew it as well...
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Posted: 1/10/2011 9:28:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
I have never participated in a carbine class. Are SBRs allowed? Usually. I've never heard of them being disallowed. |
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Posted: 1/11/2011 5:30:39 AM EDT
[#40]
I ran my krink
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Posted: 1/12/2011 8:51:01 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
I have never participated in a carbine class. Are SBRs allowed? Probably depends on the class/instructor/location. There was an SBR in the last class I took. The student was a Class 3 manufacturer and dealer. |
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Posted: 1/12/2011 9:25:40 AM EDT
[#42]
For what possible reason would a legal SBR be dis-allowed in a carbine class?
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Posted: 1/12/2011 1:11:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
For what possible reason would a legal SBR be dis-allowed in a carbine class? There isn't one. Unless the instructor was very misinformed, in which case there are other things to worry about. |
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Posted: 1/12/2011 1:16:48 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
I've heard in Vietnam, the enemy used three green tracers at the bottom of the magazine to let them know they were almost empty. Of course, our boys knew it as well... The Rhodesians would do that with red tracers and their FAL's to warn them before they would need a reload. |
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Posted: 1/12/2011 4:30:46 PM EDT
[#45]
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