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Posted: 9/1/2014 6:56:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Yes, much experience from soldiers and civilians saying it will fail. ARs more than even clean must be wet to stay running well. But clean is needed as well.
I'm an AR fan myself, but fact is fact. Sure, YMMV but in general this seems to be true. DI system is inherently dirty (and not starting that debate here). Any mechanicals that get and stay dirty will fail. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 6:58:41 PM EDT
[#2]
Read up on the filthy 14. Went like 40k rounds or something with just replacing normal wear stuff. Or something like that. I know it's on this site somewhere. BCM...
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Posted: 9/1/2014 7:01:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, much experience from soldiers and civilians saying it will fail. ARs more than even clean must be wet to stay running well. But clean is needed as well. I'm an AR fan myself, but fact is fact. Sure, YMMV but in general this seems to be true. DI system is inherently dirty (and not starting that debate here). Any mechanicals that get and stay dirty will fail. 'saying it will fail' ... I've heard that too. I want to know if anyone can back that up and say how it will. Trigger jams? Sear fails? Gas rings? I'd like to see photos/evidence that proves or disproves the myth of AR cleaning. TRG |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 7:17:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required.
If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 7:41:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Yes, Vietnam.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 7:46:13 PM EDT
[#6]
I've seen issues caused by build-up of small brass shavings under the extractor, especially in newer rifles. Foreign debris like dirt or gravel can cause malfunctions.
However.... most cleaning of ARs is hype. You can run the shit out of your rifle and most parts will never need to be touched with the frequency that most people clean. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 7:47:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) How often do you think duty weapons get the trigger groups taken out and cleaned? |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 8:06:46 PM EDT
[#8]
My experience says just add lube.
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Posted: 9/1/2014 8:41:18 PM EDT
[#9]
I would love to see any documentation from Armalite/Colt/.MIL that says no cleaning is required.....
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:29:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, Vietnam. X87 |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:09:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) Nice theory, but, no pics to back it up? TRG |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:10:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
X87 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yes, Vietnam. X87 Ball vs. stick powder ... we've all heard the stories. Still, doesn't prove anything. No pics, no 'evidence' just stories and rumors. TR |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 10:12:47 PM EDT
[#13]
All mechanical items require maintenance.
Cheers! -JC |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:11:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How often do you think duty weapons get the trigger groups taken out and cleaned? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) How often do you think duty weapons get the trigger groups taken out and cleaned? I dunno or care. I have had my ass handed to me on this board for asking 'why did my gun do..." I got into a big fight with 82nd-ABN defending my position about NOT being a troll or looking to be getting instructions on how to build a faster gun. No shits given about how often other people clean their shit... I KNOW what happens when you don't. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:12:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice theory, but, no pics to back it up? TRG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) Nice theory, but, no pics to back it up? TRG Ask 82nd Abn. I almost got the hammer over posting about it. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 11:41:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ask 82nd Abn. I almost got the hammer over posting about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) Nice theory, but, no pics to back it up? TRG Ask 82nd Abn. I almost got the hammer over posting about it. Ok,but, what part of your post was bannable? TRG |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 12:38:39 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How often do you think duty weapons get the trigger groups taken out and cleaned? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) How often do you think duty weapons get the trigger groups taken out and cleaned? Never, unless an armorer was doing it. I have, but was also the armory NCOIC at the time. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 1:24:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Two years at Basic Training with over 900 trainees going through 5 live fire ranges each, and blank fire (blanks make weapon dirty as fuck) field training, I noticed some trends:
1. If you didn't supervise lubrication, the amount of malfunctions increased about 3-5X 2. If you didn't supervise maintenance/cleaning the amount of malfunctions was about double. 3. If you failed at both, the amount of malfunctions increased about 8-10X. 4. Qualification score averages are lower, and the amount of broken parts are higher, with more malfunctions. 5. Lube and maintenance becomes more important the harder and hotter you run them. It isn't exactly scientific, but those are my observations from being at ranges where about 400,000 live rounds were shot through service M4's. I actually left more confident in M4's than when I started. They are pretty idiot proof, and reliable. Even when neglected, in the rain, not cleaned, or lubed, most of them will work with live ammo anyway. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 1:27:59 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My experience says just add lube. I'm not saying that I'd never clean one, but this. But I'm not running around in Afghanistan. Just the farm, training classes, etc. It slings muck out when I fire, but it fires. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:33:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok,but, what part of your post was bannable? TRG I posted using language that was vague and apparently I could (was) interpreted as seeking a way to construct an illegal firearm. I had to swear on a my own eyes that I wasn't trolling. Back in those days, I was shooting a couple thousand rounds a week... no cleaning... untoll I pressed the bolt release and did a mag dump. Things are slightly different now. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 4:36:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, Vietnam. An era of shit ammo. Times have changed. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 10:45:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted using language that was vague and apparently I could (was) interpreted as seeking a way to construct an illegal firearm. I had to swear on a my own eyes that I wasn't trolling. Back in those days, I was shooting a couple thousand rounds a week... no cleaning... untoll I pressed the bolt release and did a mag dump. Things are slightly different now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok,but, what part of your post was bannable? TRG I posted using language that was vague and apparently I could (was) interpreted as seeking a way to construct an illegal firearm. I had to swear on a my own eyes that I wasn't trolling. Back in those days, I was shooting a couple thousand rounds a week... no cleaning... untoll I pressed the bolt release and did a mag dump. Things are slightly different now. You sure it wasn't a blown primer in the trigger group? |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 5:45:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Without cleaning the AR, even though it is an outstanding weapon system, will eventually fail. Enough said.
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:37:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read up on the filthy 14. Went like 40k rounds or something with just replacing normal wear stuff. Or something like that. I know it's on this site somewhere. BCM... If you read up on the Filthy 14, you'll find that they replaced numerous parts, cleaned it (thoroughly) a few times, and "wiped off areas" a few (separate from the "cleanings") times, as well as (in their words) "kept it GENEROUSLY lubed with Slip2000". I don't know why internet lore keeps linking to this "test". All it says is that THIS rifle kept working after numerous parts replacements, cleanings, and CONSTANT lubing. What rifle WOULDN'T pass that test?? Keep it clean and lubed. |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:49:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Without cleaning the AR, even though it is an outstanding weapon system, will eventually fail. Enough said. And yet you post nothing to substantiate this claim... ... no pics or hard facts to back this up. TRG |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:51:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Two years at Basic Training with over 900 trainees going through 5 live fire ranges each, and blank fire (blanks make weapon dirty as fuck) field training, I noticed some trends: 1. If you didn't supervise lubrication, the amount of malfunctions increased about 3-5X 2. If you didn't supervise maintenance/cleaning the amount of malfunctions was about double. 3. If you failed at both, the amount of malfunctions increased about 8-10X. 4. Qualification score averages are lower, and the amount of broken parts are higher, with more malfunctions. 5. Lube and maintenance becomes more important the harder and hotter you run them. It isn't exactly scientific, but those are my observations from being at ranges where about 400,000 live rounds were shot through service M4's. I actually left more confident in M4's than when I started. They are pretty idiot proof, and reliable. Even when neglected, in the rain, not cleaned, or lubed, most of them will work with live ammo anyway. Malfunction. Interesting word, but, it doesn't define how/what failed to operate. An AR is a set of systems. Which system failed without being cleaned? TRG |
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Posted: 9/2/2014 11:53:32 PM EDT
[#27]
So far, nobody has posted anything that says, 'see this part? If you don't clean your gun THIS will fail. Here are the pics to prove it. Here is how it will fail...'
TRG |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 12:19:13 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Malfunction. Interesting word, but, it doesn't define how/what failed to operate. An AR is a set of systems. Which system failed without being cleaned? TRG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Two years at Basic Training with over 900 trainees going through 5 live fire ranges each, and blank fire (blanks make weapon dirty as fuck) field training, I noticed some trends: 1. If you didn't supervise lubrication, the amount of malfunctions increased about 3-5X 2. If you didn't supervise maintenance/cleaning the amount of malfunctions was about double. 3. If you failed at both, the amount of malfunctions increased about 8-10X. 4. Qualification score averages are lower, and the amount of broken parts are higher, with more malfunctions. 5. Lube and maintenance becomes more important the harder and hotter you run them. It isn't exactly scientific, but those are my observations from being at ranges where about 400,000 live rounds were shot through service M4's. I actually left more confident in M4's than when I started. They are pretty idiot proof, and reliable. Even when neglected, in the rain, not cleaned, or lubed, most of them will work with live ammo anyway. Malfunction. Interesting word, but, it doesn't define how/what failed to operate. An AR is a set of systems. Which system failed without being cleaned? TRG I believe most commonly that the build up of gunk/shit in the upper receiver causes additional friction betwixt all moving parts, which results in the system not functioning optimally. Add in an underpowered round, slightly worn or our of spec part, magazine, or slight user error, or small amount of foreign debris, and viola you have a malfunction. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 12:25:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So far, nobody has posted anything that says, 'see this part? If you don't clean your gun THIS will fail. Here are the pics to prove it. Here is how it will fail...' TRG Because that's not how complex mechanical systems work. If there was a known single point of failure, we would figure out how to improve that part. Instead, it is generally accepted that preventative maintinence and lubrication of metal parts reduces the rate of failure. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 12:42:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is how: (Among other things) Carbon will eventually build up in the disconnector channel. one of these days you will charge the weapon and dump 30 rounds in whatever you are sweeping at the tome. No use of the trigger required. If you aint gonna clean it, pleas keep the flash hider firmly planted in your shoe just between the first 2 toes when charging your weapon. Not joking. (about not cleaning it) Not sure you understand how triggers work in the AR15. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 12:45:51 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because that's not how complex mechanical systems work. If there was a known single point of failure, we would figure out how to improve that part. Instead, it is generally accepted that preventative maintinence and lubrication of metal parts reduces the rate of failure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So far, nobody has posted anything that says, 'see this part? If you don't clean your gun THIS will fail. Here are the pics to prove it. Here is how it will fail...' TRG Because that's not how complex mechanical systems work. If there was a known single point of failure, we would figure out how to improve that part. Instead, it is generally accepted that preventative maintinence and lubrication of metal parts reduces the rate of failure. SURELY there is some study with data to back that up? Other than conjecture and assumption? |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 12:48:52 AM EDT
[#32]
I have had a cleaning related failure.
I played around with grease on the bolt carrier rails, and on the buffer spring, since arfcom told me that "sproing" was a bad thing, and that grease was a good thing. Then my weapon carboned up, the grease got thick with carbon, and it started short stroking. It was running great before I cleaned it. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 1:02:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SURELY there is some study with data to back that up? Other than conjecture and assumption? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So far, nobody has posted anything that says, 'see this part? If you don't clean your gun THIS will fail. Here are the pics to prove it. Here is how it will fail...' TRG Because that's not how complex mechanical systems work. If there was a known single point of failure, we would figure out how to improve that part. Instead, it is generally accepted that preventative maintinence and lubrication of metal parts reduces the rate of failure. SURELY there is some study with data to back that up? Other than conjecture and assumption? Do you need a study to tell you that preventative maintenance is necessary for cars you drive, or planes you ride in? That something is significantly more likely to fail if you don't do it? Or is that also just conjecture and assumption? How about someone prove that clean weapons malfunction as often as they do when dirty? Also, since we are getting all sciency, what is the definition of dirty? And what is the definition of cleaning? Adding a decent amount of lube to an upper, and letting it drip off, has a pretty good cleaning effect. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 1:03:45 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have had a cleaning related failure. I played around with grease on the bolt carrier rails, and on the buffer spring, since arfcom told me that "sproing" was a bad thing, and that grease was a good thing. Then my weapon carboned up, the grease got thick with carbon, and it started short stroking. It was running great before I cleaned it. No, you didn't clean it, you made it "dirty" with grease. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 1:12:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you need a study to tell you that preventative maintenance is necessary for cars you drive, or planes you ride in? That something is significantly more likely to fail if you don't do it? Or is that also just conjecture and assumption? How about someone prove that clean weapons malfunction as often as they do when dirty? Also, since we are getting all sciency, what is the definition of dirty? And what is the definition of cleaning? Adding a decent amount of lube to an upper, and letting it drip off, has a pretty good cleaning effect. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SURELY there is some study with data to back that up? Other than conjecture and assumption? Do you need a study to tell you that preventative maintenance is necessary for cars you drive, or planes you ride in? That something is significantly more likely to fail if you don't do it? Or is that also just conjecture and assumption? How about someone prove that clean weapons malfunction as often as they do when dirty? Also, since we are getting all sciency, what is the definition of dirty? And what is the definition of cleaning? Adding a decent amount of lube to an upper, and letting it drip off, has a pretty good cleaning effect. Oh Rooster... you miss the point. There are MANY studies that have been documented on preventative maintenance and engine wear.... you actually made my point for me. Yet, you disregard the request for actual data. Data matters. Otherwise, its just observations, blathering, conjecture, and regurgitation. |
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Posted: 9/5/2014 5:13:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh Rooster... you miss the point. There are MANY studies that have been documented on preventative maintenance and engine wear.... you actually made my point for me. Yet, you disregard the request for actual data. Data matters. Otherwise, its just observations, blathering, conjecture, and regurgitation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
SURELY there is some study with data to back that up? Other than conjecture and assumption? Do you need a study to tell you that preventative maintenance is necessary for cars you drive, or planes you ride in? That something is significantly more likely to fail if you don't do it? Or is that also just conjecture and assumption? How about someone prove that clean weapons malfunction as often as they do when dirty? Also, since we are getting all sciency, what is the definition of dirty? And what is the definition of cleaning? Adding a decent amount of lube to an upper, and letting it drip off, has a pretty good cleaning effect. Oh Rooster... you miss the point. There are MANY studies that have been documented on preventative maintenance and engine wear.... you actually made my point for me. Yet, you disregard the request for actual data. Data matters. Otherwise, its just observations, blathering, conjecture, and regurgitation. I've never seen anything before that said a lack of maintenance here will result in THIS failure. See figure A, Figure B, etc. Other than anecdotes, nobody has been able to say 'this' will fail. This failure is inherent in the design. 'This' is the weak point that must be cleaned. TRG |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 2:28:57 PM EDT
[#37]
common dude, its common sense, anything with moving parts needs to be cleaned.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 2:54:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Mr. Stoner designed a system around a 20" barrel.....
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Posted: 9/9/2014 3:28:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Just make sure you clean the gas tube out regularly, you'll be fine.
TXL |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:45:37 PM EDT
[#40]
In my experience, all of the malfunctions in basic training were due to ancient and abused magazines and large quantities of sand that were stuck in the half gallon of CLP that was poured in the ejection port.
I do clean mine just because my wife hates the smell of solvent and she won't come into the garage and ask me to do stuff 
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Posted: 9/9/2014 8:35:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
common dude, its common sense, anything with moving parts needs to be cleaned. Oh really? TRG |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 8:35:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just make sure you clean the gas tube out regularly, you'll be fine. TXL You are part of the problem, I see. TRG |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 8:40:01 PM EDT
[#43]
Impact damage
Impact damage to my other bolt carrier with same lack of cleaning and lots of shooting in a suppressed M16 
If you fail to clean the bolt, the carbon WILL build up to the point that the firing pin is no longer free floating. It will then begin to hammer the retention pin. This pin will deform. That deformity will eventually either bend the pin, or cause enough impact damage to fracture the retention pin. The firing pin will then be out of position and will cause the AR to fail. I had this happen about two weeks ago. Retention pin was still in place, but allowed the firing pin to simply drop free of the bolt when I opened the AR to see WTF was wrong. When cleaning my other bolt and carrier the image of the indentation was found. Both carriers had countless rounds through them on my M16. TRG |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 8:55:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my experience, all of the malfunctions in basic training were due to ancient and abused magazines and large quantities of sand that were stuck in the half gallon of CLP that was poured in the ejection port. I do clean mine just because my wife hates the smell of solvent and she won't come into the garage and ask me to do stuff Operator error, lack of lube, and lack of cleaning were the top 3 in my observations... With old mags being the next biggest problem. At first it was a bigger issue, then we developed an SOP to stop it: When we found a mag issue, we immediately took it off of the line and crushed the mag to ensure it didn't get put back into circulation. The CLP makes the sand problem better, not worse BTW. Do you think they "over-lubed" your weapons? Maybe try keeping the weapon out of the sand, dust cover closed... |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:01:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Here are some excerpts from Mike Pannone's article The Big M4 Myth: ‘Fouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4/M4A1 Carbine unreliable.’.
"When I returned from Iraq in 2005, I was a primary instructor on a rifle course with the Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG). During that time as I have mentioned in previous articles I began a quest to find out what made the M4/M4A1 Carbine run well, and what stopped it from doing so. In that time I spent a year at the 82nd Airborne Division training with infantry units prior to their deployment on the Iraq surge. During this time, I saw every manner of malfunction and never saw a rifle that was not well cared for (the soldiers attending were more senior and specially selected, as well as being members of the highly disciplined 82nd Airborne division). Each time there was a malfunction, if possible, I would run over and observe what had happened, then write it down in my log book. What I eventually realized was that when magazine issues were removed, along with broken parts, about 80% of the malfunctions had been accounted for. The rest were failures to properly extract and eject, and failures to go into battery. That is where I realized my rifles were superior to the ones issued. The only problems I had experienced with my own guns were double feeds which are exclusively magazine caused." "Here are the findings of my testing: When the rifles become fouled, they have more drag (friction) inside the upper receiver, which slows down the bolt carrier group. This along with the pressure on the bottom of the bolt carrier from a loaded magazine will slow the BCG down enough to keep it from reliably going into battery during the counter-recoil cycle. The heavier buffer and spring completely remedy this, but there is a crossover point. That crossover point on a bone-dry stock M4/M4A1-type AR carbine upper is about 2400rounds fired. At that point, if there is enough buffer spring tension to drive the BCG into battery, then it cannot fully cycle. And, if the spring is light enough to allow the weapon to fully cycle to the rear, it does not have enough force to go fully into battery. The changing from an H3 to an H buffer only gave an additional 80 rounds of reliability. And, given the parameters of the test (no lube) and the dramatic increase in shootability using a heavier buffer, I am still a proponent of a buffer heavier than an H." "Fouling in the M4 is not the problem. The problem is weak springs (buffer and extractor), as well as light buffer weights (H vs. H2 or H3). With the abovementioned drop-in parts, the M4 is as reliable as any weapon I have ever fired, and I have fired probably every military-issue assault rifle fielded worldwide in the last 60 years as a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant (18B). An additional benefit of the heavier spring/weight combo is that it transmits the energy impulse of the firing cycle to the shoulder over a longer duration, lowering the amount of foot pounds per second and dramatically reducing the perceived recoil. Follow-on shots are easier to make effectively, and much faster, especially at 50 meters and beyond. I reliably fired 2400 rounds (80 magazines) on a bone dry gun, and I would bet that is a lot more than any soldier or other armed professional will ever come close to firing without any lubrication whatsoever. So, disregard the fouling myth and install a better buffer spring, H2 buffer, enhanced extractor spring and a Crane O-ring (all end user drop-in parts). With normal (read “not excessive”) lubrication and maintenance, properly-built AR-15/M4 type rifles with carbine gas systems will astound you with their reliability and shootability." "About the Author: Michael Pannone a.k.a Mike Pannone is currently the owner/operator of, and senior instructor for, CTT Solutions, which is a tactical training (including tactical shooting) and consulting firm. He's also a certified Colt Armorer. Mr. Pannone is a former operational member of U.S. Marine Force Reconnaissance, U.S. Army Special Forces, and specially selected elements of the Joint Special Operations Command. He has participated in stabilization, combat, and high risk protection operations in support of U.S. policies throughout the word as both an active duty military member, and a civilian contractor. During his military career, Mr. Pannone was the Distinguished Honor Graduate of a Level 1 SOTIC held at Ft Bragg. He currently instructs U.S. military, law enforcement (LE), and private citizens around the country as an adjunct instructor with several different organizations." |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:16:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fouling in the M4 is not the problem. The problem is weak springs (buffer and extractor), as well as light buffer weights (H vs. H2 or H3). Edited for brevity. Carbon fouling is a problem. Weak springs have no bearing on fouling that turns the firing pin in to a battering ram. I honestly could not tell you when/if I have ever replaced a buffer spring on any of my ARs. They had always 'just worked' up to the point of the failure I posted above. TRG |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:17:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Impact damage <a href="http://s671.photobucket.com/user/TheRedGoat/media/garden2013/20140831_141511_zps2da24be3.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/garden2013/20140831_141511_zps2da24be3.jpg</a> Impact damage to my other bolt carrier with same lack of cleaning and lots of shooting in a suppressed M16 <a href="http://s671.photobucket.com/user/TheRedGoat/media/garden2013/20140831_150759_zps26109884.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/garden2013/20140831_150759_zps26109884.jpg</a> If you fail to clean the bolt, the carbon WILL build up to the point that the firing pin is no longer free floating. It will then begin to hammer the retention pin. This pin will deform. That deformity will eventually either bend the pin, or cause enough impact damage to fracture the retention pin. The firing pin will then be out of position and will cause the AR to fail. I had this happen about two weeks ago. Retention pin was still in place, but allowed the firing pin to simply drop free of the bolt when I opened the AR to see WTF was wrong. When cleaning my other bolt and carrier the image of the indentation was found. Both carriers had countless rounds through them on my M16. TRG When you get enough crap in the upper, ANY of the moving parts are subceptable to malfunction or failure. The most common I've seen is the comination of carbon build up and other debris between the bolt carrier, and upper reciever, and between the charging handle and upper reciever. This build up doesnt allow the BCG to travel at the appropriate speed, and leads to malfunctions. Short stroke, failure to lock back... Carbon and debris build up between the bolt and BCG have a similar affect. The issue with DI is that the more you fire it, the more carbon and heat gets put in the upper. If you don't add lube, and clean it, it's a matter of time. Just adding lube works well for a long time. That is what the infamous "filthy" rifle teaches us. It doesn't prove that the rifles are non fouling, and maintinence free. It turns out that a well lubed AR will work even when dirty... Yes your Drill Sergeant was lying to you when he said the weapon "needed" to be spotless. What he meant was he wanted it spotless. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:21:24 PM EDT
[#48]
My Armalite went for several thousand rounds of 5.56 and .22LR with no issues. If you keep it lubed, it will run. As long as its a decent AR.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:29:33 PM EDT
[#49]
We shoot frangable ammo in our patrol rifles (LMT pistons) for training. They dont get cleaned every class, so after ~1500 rounds they begin to FTF from the copper slurry slowing bolt carrier travel.
Probably apples and oranges to most applications here. Also, many of my co-workers who were in Iraq related that they kept their rifles very dry. If sand accumulated in the rifles, they needed to be clean or they suffered malfunctions. |
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Posted: 9/9/2014 9:33:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My Armalite went for several thousand rounds of 5.56 and .22LR with no issues. If you keep it lubed, it will run. As long as its a decent AR. 
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