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Posted: 2/20/2012 2:45:11 PM EDT
[#1]
As long as you took the carbon off and not the bluing I don't see an issue. I generally use a brass scraping tool that looks like a flat screwdriver but my machine gunners here in the Corps. use knifes to clean their shit all the time.
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Posted: 2/20/2012 3:27:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: i was cleaning my bolt the other day and it was really hard to clean to carbon of my bolt and the brush i was using wasn't hard enough so i took a knife to it very carefully.. probably very stupid of me but it was a 1 time thing..im looking into the c.a.t m4 bolt cleaner. http://www.riflegear.com/p-1257-cat-m-4-bolt-carrier-cleaner.aspx I'm leaning towards the CRT-15 myself. |
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Posted: 2/20/2012 3:30:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Overkill in my humble opinion. No reason to go crazy scraping to bare metal. If it doesn't come off with a bronze brush or brass scraper i'm leaving it.
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Posted: 2/20/2012 4:19:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Overkill in my humble opinion. No reason to go crazy scraping to bare metal. If it doesn't come off with a bronze brush or brass scraper i'm leaving it. i felt like it was overkill myself but i wanted that bolt clean also it was a lot of carbon and my brush couldn't get off..i need a better brush any suggestions?? |
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Posted: 2/20/2012 4:25:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: Overkill in my humble opinion. No reason to go crazy scraping to bare metal. If it doesn't come off with a bronze brush or brass scraper i'm leaving it. i felt like it was overkill myself but i wanted that bolt clean also it was a lot of carbon and my brush couldn't get off..i need a better brush any suggestions?? i just use an old bore brush on one stick of a USGI cleaning rod |
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Posted: 2/20/2012 4:30:28 PM EDT
[#6]
That's how I always did / do it. Just be gentle. You'd be much better off with a brass scraper than the knife, but it's not going to hurt it. Keep in mind that this was an Army solution that I just stuck with.
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Posted: 2/20/2012 4:36:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
That's how I always did / do it. Just be gentle. You'd be much better off with a brass scraper than the knife, but it's not going to hurt it. Keep in mind that this was an Army solution that I just stuck with.[/qu well i def feel better now knowing that's what the military did or does to there bolts.i figured the c.a.t tool is pretty much steel on steel like the knife..it got the carbon off really well and didn't damage so i was happy but still looking for other options to be a main way of cleaning the bolt.. |
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Posted: 2/20/2012 10:16:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Overkill in my humble opinion. No reason to go crazy scraping to bare metal. If it doesn't come off with a bronze brush or brass scraper i'm leaving it. This is my opinion as well. The way I was taught,is no metal scrapers can be used,anything harder than a finger nail or sharp chop stick etc was allowed to scrape weapon parts with. If the carbon on the bolt tail does not come off without extensive mechanical action I coat it with CLP/oil to further soften between uses and to prevent corrosion.The carbon on the bolt tail is self limiting,so its not critical,just keep the area coated with CLP/oil for protection. As a tip to help reduce effort cleaning the bolt tail.During and after firing the gun,weapon fully assembled,retract the charging handle pulling the BCG back about 1/2" as to pull it out of battery causing the bolt to move foward in the carrier.Hold the BCG there and put 3-4 drops of CLP/oil in the carrier gas ports.Cycle the BCG a couple times to spread the oil inside the carrier as to anoint the rear of the bolt and gas rings.This will help keep the fouling soft during firing further reducing build up,and if done when finished firing for the day allows the oil/CLP to work getting a head start on the cleaning process once your home and have time to do PM. As far as all these purpose specific bolt cleaning tools I see them as just one more thing to spend money on that will needless be carried with a already plentiful cleaning kit. Money is better spent on mags and ammo IMHO. HTH |
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Posted: 2/20/2012 11:14:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overkill in my humble opinion. No reason to go crazy scraping to bare metal. If it doesn't come off with a bronze brush or brass scraper i'm leaving it. This is my opinion as well. The way I was taught,is no metal scrapers can be used,anything harder than a finger nail or sharp chop stick etc was allowed to scrape weapon parts with. If the carbon on the bolt tail does not come off without extensive mechanical action I coat it with CLP/oil to further soften between uses and to prevent corrosion.The carbon on the bolt tail is self limiting,so its not critical,just keep the area coated with CLP/oil for protection. As a tip to help reduce effort cleaning the bolt tail.During and after firing the gun,weapon fully assembled,retract the charging handle pulling the BCG back about 1/2" as to pull it out of battery causing the bolt to move foward in the carrier.Hold the BCG there and put 3-4 drops of CLP/oil in the carrier gas ports.Cycle the BCG a couple times to spread the oil inside the carrier as to anoint the rear of the bolt and gas rings.This will help keep the fouling soft during firing further reducing build up,and if done when finished firing for the day allows the oil/CLP to work getting a head start on the cleaning process once your home and have time to do PM. As far as all these purpose specific bolt cleaning tools I see them as just one more thing to spend money on that will needless be carried with a already plentiful cleaning kit. Money is better spent on mags and ammo IMHO. HTH thanks ur post help a lot |
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Posted: 2/21/2012 2:28:37 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 2/21/2012 2:30:08 AM EDT
[#11]
the cat tool is about 10 bucks cheaper than the cr15 i might pick one up tomorrow when i got to gun store tomorrow
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Posted: 2/21/2012 3:11:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Scotch Bright pads cheaper.
I have no problems using a Stanley razor blade to remove carbon from the tail. |
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Posted: 2/21/2012 6:33:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Great photo. Good review of that tool over there too. 
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Posted: 2/21/2012 9:50:01 AM EDT
[#14]
Take a spent casing and crush it and there you have a free scraper
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Posted: 2/21/2012 9:50:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Scotch Bright pads cheaper. I have no problems using a Stanley razor blade to remove carbon from the tail. how long have you been using a razor blade to clean the bolt tail |
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Posted: 2/21/2012 9:51:27 AM EDT
[#16]
the cat tool also cleans inside the carrier and the firing pin
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Posted: 2/21/2012 10:03:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Never needed anything beyond a sharpened chop stick to clean carbon with.....fits nicely in my field cleaning kit too with very minimal weight and bulk.The bolt cleaning tools are needed IMHO about as much as a cleaning link...cool stuff but in the end not really a need for.
Typically I rely on the chemistry of the CLP and cleaner products rather than mechanical means.To me its more about keeping the weapon clean enough and well lubed.Using that technique Ive not seen any issues with protection of the components,functional aspects and contaimination remains very limited with a solid PM routine. I use to be one of the white glove type gun cleaning folks that could not stand a spec of fouling in/on the guns spending alot of time,effort and money in the process.But since my shooting has increased in volume and frequency Ive found its a lost endeavor. |
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Posted: 2/21/2012 10:17:05 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Never needed anything beyond a sharpened chop stick to clean carbon with.....fits nicely in my field cleaning kit too with very minimal weight and bulk.The bolt cleaning tools are needed IMHO about as much as a cleaning link...cool stuff but in the end not really a need for. Typically I rely on the chemistry of the CLP and cleaner products rather than mechanical means.To me its more about keeping the weapon clean enough and well lubed.Using that technique Ive not seen any issues with protection of the components,functional aspects and contaimination remains very limited with a solid PM routine. I use to be one of the white glove type gun cleaning folks that could not stand a spec of fouling in/on the guns spending alot of time,effort and money in the process.But since my shooting has increased in volume and frequency Ive found its a lost endeavor. nice thanks for your post i understand what your saying big time i do make time for a complete cleaning of my ar but i still cant get it white glove clean..lol.i like the cat m4 tool cause its fast and also weighs only 1 oz so very lightweight as well.. |
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Posted: 2/21/2012 10:18:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Scotch Bright pads cheaper. I have no problems using a Stanley razor blade to remove carbon from the tail. how long have you been using a razor blade to clean the bolt tail Since about 1998 eta I've used screwdrivers, fired casings, stripper clips (brass inserts), pocket knives and bronze brushes. |
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Posted: 2/21/2012 1:18:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Great photo. Good review of that tool over there too.
Thanks. |
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Posted: 4/25/2012 4:43:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Upgraded my knife to the cat m4 tool.
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Posted: 4/25/2012 10:38:01 PM EDT
[#22]
I'm not a militant anti-tool guy. I understand that there are times when you just gotta have the right tool to get the job done properly. And these newfangled bolt scraper tools seem to do a decent job. Having said that, I don't think they are necessary unless you just want to have another tool in the bag. You could argue that the scraper tools are a good field-expedient solution, but then that begs the question of why would you need to have the bolt tail carbon-free in that situation, when you can't get access to your full cleaning kit and chemicals?
When it comes to dealing with caked-on carbon, I choose chemicals over mechanical action. "Better living through chemistry," as the old saying goes. Here is a pic of my cleaned bolt. I soaked it for 10 minutes in a small glass jar half-filled with my stripped-down version of Ed's Red, meaning I used equal parts ATF, odorless mineral spirits, and kerosene, all cheap and readily available at Walmart, Home Depot, and the auto parts store. After I pulled the bolt from the jar, I lightly scraped the bolt tail with a spent .45ACP brass case to remove the soft and mushy, formerly hard and caked-on, carbon. Then I wiped it down and re-lubed. To clean the inside of the BC, I wrapped a patch soaked with Ed's Red around an old bore brush and twirled it around the inside of the carrier a couple times. Because I use these chemicals, I keep a small fan which blows across my bench, the room is well-ventilated, and I wear nitrile gloves. 
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Posted: 4/25/2012 11:21:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
but i still cant get it white glove clean White glove clean is ridiculous and completely unnecessary. All you're doing is causing excess damage/wear. Carbon buildup is a self limiting problem, you do not ever need to make a special effort to remove it. If you use a good lube most of it should just wipe off anyway. If I HAD to remove all the carbon, I'd use a chemical cleaner like slip2000 carbon cutter or pro-shot copper solvent IV. |
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Posted: 4/26/2012 6:42:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I'm not a militant anti-tool guy. I understand that there are times when you just gotta have the right tool to get the job done properly. And these newfangled bolt scraper tools seem to do a decent job. Having said that, I don't think they are necessary unless you just want to have another tool in the bag. You could argue that the scraper tools are a good field-expedient solution, but then that begs the question of why would you need to have the bolt tail carbon-free in that situation, when you can't get access to your full cleaning kit and chemicals? When it comes to dealing with caked-on carbon, I choose chemicals over mechanical action. "Better living through chemistry," as the old saying goes. Here is a pic of my cleaned bolt. I soaked it for 10 minutes in a small glass jar half-filled with my stripped-down version of Ed's Red, meaning I used equal parts ATF, odorless mineral spirits, and kerosene, all cheap and readily available at Walmart, Home Depot, and the auto parts store. After I pulled the bolt from the jar, I lightly scraped the bolt tail with a spent .45ACP brass case to remove the soft and mushy, formerly hard and caked-on, carbon. Then I wiped it down and re-lubed. To clean the inside of the BC, I wrapped a patch soaked with Ed's Red around an old bore brush and twirled it around the inside of the carrier a couple times. Because I use these chemicals, I keep a small fan which blows across my bench, the room is well-ventilated, and I wear nitrile gloves. http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/terrdeac/Stuff/Bolt1.jpg Nice job on the bolt. I bought the cat m4 tool because its super light weight and takes all but 30 seconds after i sprayed some ballistiol on it for a minute. It's also idea; for a 2 day class. thanks for your reply and advice. |
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Posted: 4/26/2012 6:43:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
but i still cant get it white glove clean White glove clean is ridiculous and completely unnecessary. All you're doing is causing excess damage/wear. Carbon buildup is a self limiting problem, you do not ever need to make a special effort to remove it. If you use a good lube most of it should just wipe off anyway. If I HAD to remove all the carbon, I'd use a chemical cleaner like slip2000 carbon cutter or pro-shot copper solvent IV. I had just started using slip 2000 and love that lube. |
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Posted: 4/26/2012 9:03:31 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Nice job on the bolt. I bought the cat m4 tool because its super light weight and takes all but 30 seconds after i sprayed some ballistiol on it for a minute. It's also idea; for a 2 day class. thanks for your reply and advice. Thanks. That sounds good to me. Always nice to have another tool in the bag. Take care and happy shooting! |
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Posted: 4/26/2012 2:24:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Cat M4 tool.
Takes about 1.5 minutes to completely clean the BCG and it gets rid of 95% of the carbon. |
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Posted: 4/26/2012 5:13:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Cat M4 tool. Takes about 1.5 minutes to completely clean the BCG and it gets rid of 95% of the carbon. Yea for a complete clean but for a quick clean after 200 rounds takes 30 seconds. |
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Posted: 4/26/2012 6:42:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Cat M4 tool. Takes about 1.5 minutes to completely clean the BCG and it gets rid of 95% of the carbon. Yea for a complete clean but for a quick clean after 200 rounds takes 30 seconds. i would say the cat M4 tool is a quick complete clean. twirl the tool for 15-20 seconds on the bolt tail, 15-20 seconds inside the carrier, put a 2"x2" patch on the CAT M4 and twirl it inside the bolt carrier for 15-20 seconds and wipe down the rest of the carrier, takes about 1.5minutes |
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Posted: 4/27/2012 6:06:29 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Cat M4 tool. Takes about 1.5 minutes to completely clean the BCG and it gets rid of 95% of the carbon. Yea for a complete clean but for a quick clean after 200 rounds takes 30 seconds. i would say the cat M4 tool is a quick complete clean. twirl the tool for 15-20 seconds on the bolt tail, 15-20 seconds inside the carrier, put a 2"x2" patch on the CAT M4 and twirl it inside the bolt carrier for 15-20 seconds and wipe down the rest of the carrier, takes about 1.5minutes Ok i see what you mean now. i forgot about using a patch on it and the using it on the bolt carrier. 1.5 minutes is amazing too. |
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Posted: 4/27/2012 11:41:07 AM EDT
[#31]
I like to soak my bolt in Slips Carbon Killer for 15-20 minutes. Most of the carbon usually rubs right off. If there is any still on the bolt I use a dental pick.
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Posted: 4/27/2012 11:56:27 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
I like to soak my bolt in Slips Carbon Killer for 15-20 minutes. Most of the carbon usually rubs right off. If there is any still on the bolt I use a dental pick. Maybe its me but 15-20 minutes is just to long to clean the bolt. I take 15 minutes to clean my entire rifle 1.5 on the BCG 1 minute Bore snakes 3 times down the bore 5 minutes on the chamber. Scrubbing and drying 5 minutes cleaning the upper and barrel Anything more than that to me is just overkill. |
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Posted: 4/27/2012 4:46:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I like to soak my bolt in Slips Carbon Killer for 15-20 minutes. Most of the carbon usually rubs right off. If there is any still on the bolt I use a dental pick. Maybe its me but 15-20 minutes is just to long to clean the bolt. I take 15 minutes to clean my entire rifle 1.5 on the BCG 1 minute Bore snakes 3 times down the bore 5 minutes on the chamber. Scrubbing and drying 5 minutes cleaning the upper and barrel Anything more than that to me is just overkill. It's not just you i do the same thing as you do. There is no way ill hurt my rifle by cleaning it. Heck it likes to be clean and wet. |
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Posted: 4/27/2012 10:13:19 PM EDT
[#34]
just leave the carbon on there, its not hurting anything on the tail of the bolt
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Posted: 4/27/2012 10:32:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
There is no way ill hurt my rifle by cleaning it. Let me offer a gentle suggestion for your consideration. The tail of the bolt is a slip fit into the bolt carrier. The closeness of the fit and the seal from whatever lube you have in there is what contains the 15,000 to 35,000 PSI blast of gas from the gas system that makes the action work. There are gas rings at the front of the cylinder, but just the closeness of the fit at the back. The more you scrape on the tail, the more material you remove or gouges/scratches you make, the poorer the fit and the more gas leaks back into the firing pin area and rest of the internal of the gun versus being constrained in that cylinder area before going out the exhaust port and out the ejection port after bolt unlocking. |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 6:26:51 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no way ill hurt my rifle by cleaning it. Let me offer a gentle suggestion for your consideration. The tail of the bolt is a slip fit into the bolt carrier. The closeness of the fit and the seal from whatever lube you have in there is what contains the 15,000 to 35,000 PSI blast of gas from the gas system that makes the action work. There are gas rings at the front of the cylinder, but just the closeness of the fit at the back. The more you scrape on the tail, the more material you remove or gouges/scratches you make, the poorer the fit and the more gas leaks back into the firing pin area and rest of the internal of the gun versus being constrained in that cylinder area before going out the exhaust port and out the ejection port after bolt unlocking. Okay i see what you mean. So if i keep the tail super clean it's actually making the rest on my internals dirty. Don'y malfunctions come from having a dirty tail also though? |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 6:30:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is no way ill hurt my rifle by cleaning it. Let me offer a gentle suggestion for your consideration. The tail of the bolt is a slip fit into the bolt carrier. The closeness of the fit and the seal from whatever lube you have in there is what contains the 15,000 to 35,000 PSI blast of gas from the gas system that makes the action work. There are gas rings at the front of the cylinder, but just the closeness of the fit at the back. The more you scrape on the tail, the more material you remove or gouges/scratches you make, the poorer the fit and the more gas leaks back into the firing pin area and rest of the internal of the gun versus being constrained in that cylinder area before going out the exhaust port and out the ejection port after bolt unlocking. Okay i see what you mean. So if i keep the tail super clean it's actually making the rest on my internals dirty. Don'y malfunctions come from having a dirty tail also though? No, he's saying you're going to ruin your bolt if you scrape it with metal tools too often. |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 10:32:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no way ill hurt my rifle by cleaning it. Let me offer a gentle suggestion for your consideration. The tail of the bolt is a slip fit into the bolt carrier. The closeness of the fit and the seal from whatever lube you have in there is what contains the 15,000 to 35,000 PSI blast of gas from the gas system that makes the action work. There are gas rings at the front of the cylinder, but just the closeness of the fit at the back. The more you scrape on the tail, the more material you remove or gouges/scratches you make, the poorer the fit and the more gas leaks back into the firing pin area and rest of the internal of the gun versus being constrained in that cylinder area before going out the exhaust port and out the ejection port after bolt unlocking. Okay i see what you mean. So if i keep the tail super clean it's actually making the rest on my internals dirty. Don'y malfunctions come from having a dirty tail also though? No, he's saying you're going to ruin your bolt if you scrape it with metal tools too often. Malfunctions come from not having lubricant where it's needed, like on the tail of the bolt. Fouling is almost irrelevant as long as you have lube. Don't believe me? Read this -> http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/196990_Filthy_14_is_now_over_40_000_rounds.html Hyper clean your rifle if you want, just don't want anyone to be under the impression that it's needed or even useful, and does have the potential to accelerate wear. |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 11:58:47 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no way ill hurt my rifle by cleaning it. Let me offer a gentle suggestion for your consideration. The tail of the bolt is a slip fit into the bolt carrier. The closeness of the fit and the seal from whatever lube you have in there is what contains the 15,000 to 35,000 PSI blast of gas from the gas system that makes the action work. There are gas rings at the front of the cylinder, but just the closeness of the fit at the back. The more you scrape on the tail, the more material you remove or gouges/scratches you make, the poorer the fit and the more gas leaks back into the firing pin area and rest of the internal of the gun versus being constrained in that cylinder area before going out the exhaust port and out the ejection port after bolt unlocking. Okay i see what you mean. So if i keep the tail super clean it's actually making the rest on my internals dirty. Don'y malfunctions come from having a dirty tail also though? No, he's saying you're going to ruin your bolt if you scrape it with metal tools too often. Malfunctions come from not having lubricant where it's needed, like on the tail of the bolt. Fouling is almost irrelevant as long as you have lube. Don't believe me? Read this -> http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/196990_Filthy_14_is_now_over_40_000_rounds.html Hyper clean your rifle if you want, just don't want anyone to be under the impression that it's needed or even useful, and does have the potential to accelerate wear. Thanks i believe you, but do you think it will really get damaged enough to where its a big issue? |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 1:28:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Thanks i believe you, but do you think it will really get damaged enough to where its a big issue? If you're careful and using a good tool, and limiting where you scrape, probably not. I've also seen people who have used a file and gouged the crap out of their bolt over this idea that the bolt should be spotlessly clean (and usually dry, since lube "attracts fouling"). So I usually do my best to discourage the practice, not only for whoever I'm talking to but how ever many other people down the line will think it's necessary. Since you mentioned cleaning at 200 rounds, if you put a coat of a high temp synthetic grease on that whole area, with only 200 rounds fired you should be able to just wipe everything off with a paper towel and put on another coat of grease for the next time. |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 6:18:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks i believe you, but do you think it will really get damaged enough to where its a big issue? If you're careful and using a good tool, and limiting where you scrape, probably not. I've also seen people who have used a file and gouged the crap out of their bolt over this idea that the bolt should be spotlessly clean (and usually dry, since lube "attracts fouling"). So I usually do my best to discourage the practice, not only for whoever I'm talking to but how ever many other people down the line will think it's necessary. Since you mentioned cleaning at 200 rounds, if you put a coat of a high temp synthetic grease on that whole area, with only 200 rounds fired you should be able to just wipe everything off with a paper towel and put on another coat of grease for the next time. Thanks for all the information. you helped me a ton. ill just wpe everything down next time unless its really dirty from like 1000 rounds or something. thanks again. |
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