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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
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Posted: 6/24/2017 4:04:43 PM EDT
Mellow greetings fellow ARFers. I have a problem with my AR15. I've read the FAQ, the List Rules, the Sample Post and the Glossary and couldn't find this exact problem. My 2 IDENTICAL new AR15's are a subtle blend of 16" 5.56 1:7 Davidson Defense upper, Anderson lower, milspec LPK with some Seekins partsTrinity Force buttstock, buffer and spring, FailZero NiB BCG and SSA-E trigger. The ammunition being used is PMC Bronze .223 55gr. FMJ-BT. I do believe I have read that this is a somewhat cool round, and may be part of the problem.

Built exactly alike, the 1st functions perfect in every way. Casings are at 4 oclock and 3'

2nd rifle was consistently failing to extract the spent case. Halfway.
I removed the handguard and checked the gas block. It is neither dimpled nor pinned, and one set screw was only friction tight, the other was snug, but not tight.
I marked and removed the gas block, and verified that the barrel port was open, and had a carbon circle slightly larger and perfectly centered on the barrel port. So, alignment was good.
I repositioned the block, and tightened it good. This DID make some difference. The casings now were almost fully extracting, often the throat was just catching on the receiver port and jamming the bolt open. ALMOST enough to eject the case.

I have a new, spare lightweight NiB Spikes BCG for my Compressor. I thought maybe a lighter bolt would solve that problem, and it does. But this lightweight bolt then does not take the next round fully into battery. About 1/4" short. The ejected round was at 4' and 3oclock.

Then I tried a brand new off brand "Right to bear arms" (RTB) NiB BCG. THIS one functions flawlessly. Locks the bolt back on empty, ejects 3' and 4oclock like it's identical twin.


All bolts are brand new. All were disassembled before use, inspected, oiled with MobilOne except pins which were oiled with a thinner gun oil.
The bolt weights are all different. The Spikes was 10.50oz, the FailZero 11.61oz, and the RTB 11.66oz.

Seems odd to have SUCH a variation. I am wondering if my problem isn't the spring and buffer, but the other gun runs perfectly with the FZ bolt.


Please help me I really really love my AR and I've been told you guys are the best.

Thanks in advance.
A rookie out of his league.

ETA to add picture.
Link Posted: 6/24/2017 4:44:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Swap buffer springs and see if the problem persists

Then bufferd

Then try swapping charging handles

Etc.

Isolate variables.
Link Posted: 6/24/2017 6:11:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Swap buffer springs and see if the problem persists

Then bufferd

Then try swapping charging handles

Etc.

Isolate variables.
View Quote
An excellent idea. With two exact rifles, trying to replicate the problem in the other by swapping parts will probably tell me a lot.
Link Posted: 6/24/2017 10:34:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Stagger the gas rings in the bad BCG's
Link Posted: 6/24/2017 11:34:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 8:18:40 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Easy problem solve,

On the two problem B/C combos, start with pulling the bolt and dry fitting only the carrier with key to the upper receiver.  Here you want to make sure that the carrier is not binding in the  upper (sides of the key down the upper slot), and the gas tube is correctly aligning with the carrier keys.
Note, if the sides of the keys are binding down the upper slot, you may have to lap the sides of the key to allow it to move freely in the upper receiver track.

If there is no binding and the keys are aligning with the gas tube, then next step,
Since you have one working bolt and carrier, pull the bolt out of that carrier and try it in the other  problem carrier to weed out if the problem is the other bolts or the other carrier.

If the working bolt in one of the carriers is having a problem cycling the rig, then since you weeded out problems with either carrier or gas tube binding, then the problem is that the gas key is leaking from between it base and the top of the carrier, or the bottom of the carrier is slightly lower, and causing the hammer to wedge between the bottom of the carrier and top of the trigger (will have a dent/white lines on the top of the trigger from the tail of the hammer being wedged between the two).

As for the key leaking, since these are new bolts, send them back for replacements if the key is leaking.  Also, to check for key leak, you can just hold the bolt inward, put some CLP around the base of the key to carrier and pressurize the front of the key with an air compressor to check as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/ZNAF1nM_g1c

If you don/t have problems with the working bolt in the problem carrier, then you need to use the working carrier, and try the problem bolts in that carrier next.
Note, if you find that one of the bolts is the problem, then send it and its carrier back for replacement.

As for gas rings, just remember that they are stamp cut.  One side edges of the rings will be rounded, while the other side edges will be sharp instead.  
When you install or re-install the rings back of the bolt, ALL the sharp ring side edges need to be facing the tail of the bolt.

In this photo, the top right ring is round side up, while the middle and lower rig are sharp side up instead.
Note, if you can not see it when looking at your rings, you can fill which is which with your finger nail.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/k/p/kpc_5490.jpg

As for the gas block, the easy way to double check to make sure its installed correctly, if to first check the distance from the barrel shoulder to the center of gas port, then check the gas block from back of block to the center of the gas port.  Some blocks are produced for the front hand guard ring to be in play while others are not.  By check the two distances, this will tell you if the gas block should be installed tight against the barrel shoulder, or slightly off the barrel shoulder instead.

As of installing the gas block once you have figured if the block needs to be tight against the barrel shoulder or not, use a pencil to make a line on the top of the shoulder dead center of the barrel gas port, and use the center line of the gas tube against the line for your rotation index.  If you are running a float tube, then before you final tighten the gas block set screws, use a carrier with key to double check the alignment of the gas tube against the carrier key.  If the alignment is not correct, DO NOT ROTATE THE BLOCK ON THE BARREL,  but instead pull the block with gas tube and tweak the gas tube to correct the alignment about the center of the gas tube.  If you are using snap on hand gaurds, the you install the block and tweak the gas tube with the block in place. Also to point out to check for gas block leaks against the barrel, this would be a good time to hand tighen the set screws and with a touch of CLP front and back of the block to the barrel and even on the tube to block, use a piece of rubber tubing to pressurize the gas tube and check for air leaks at the gas block.  If you have major leaks of the block to barrel, the pull the block and make sure that there is not a ridge at the gas passage entrance that is not allowing the gas block to seal off tightly to the barrel gas port.

As for the gas block set screws once you have down the above, they have to be 272 loctite (red) in place, or they are going to come loose. If down the road you need to remove the gas block, use a old allen wrench in the set screw heads, and heat the wrench with a torch to heat transfer down the wrench to break the loctite bond (will smell a sweet smell as the loctite bond breaks down. Once the loctite bond has been broken down, the use a new wrench to remove the bolts (the old wrench  hardening will be lost when you glow the wrench to heat transfer down it).
View Quote
AWESOME AWESOME!!!  Wow, I am just checking in before going out of town for a week, but when I get back I'm going to follow this to the letter. More than just fixing the problem, this will really teach me how to troubleshoot in the future. I will post my findings once I'm back and can get to this.  THIS PLACE ROCKS!!   Thank you, @Dano523 !!
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 10:58:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Great suggestions Dano.

Enzo, once you figure out the issues, I would run at least a couple hundred rounds of full blown 5.56 loads through each gun to get everything broken in.
PMC is pretty light stuff, but I also use it to test out new builds and make sure everything is cycling properly. It is my benchmark round.
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 3:56:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 8:25:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Dano,  could you go into some detail in regards to troubleshooting a verified carrier issue binding against the trigger ?  In my case I have already  verified the bolt is fully functional in a different carrier and there is no dragging between the bad carrier and upper receiver .  Thank you and sorry for thread jacking

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_66/714700_.html&page=1&anc=7470186#i7470186
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 10:07:41 PM EDT
[#9]
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