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Posted: 5/22/2016 5:51:55 PM EDT
My problem is similar to topic http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_66/694898_New_build_only_firing_every_other_round_.html, but it's slightly different.  The OP there had changed out the trigger and the problem was solved.  I don't think the trigger is the issue on mine, but it could be.

I had been using the same trigger, H-buffer and buffer spring for the past couple years, and it cycled perfectly.  Now, the first round always fires when I release the bolt. On the second round, I get a 'click' out of the trigger (but a light one, not with the typical snap) and it almost always misfires.  Once today I got 3 rounds out of it before it misfired.  Other than that, on round 2 I just get a click.  

Before I went to the range today I replaced the buffer spring (carbine) and the firing pin.  I'm using the same H-buffer.


  • I did a full function check on the trigger and the bolt action.  Everything checked out.

  • The gas tube has carbon buildup around the gas block.

  • I swapped another upper with my lower and it cycled perfectly. This makes me think it isn't the trigger, or the gas tube.

  • I tried 2 different brands of ammo, both with the same result.

  • I fired it with one round in the mag multiple times, and the BCG locked back each time.

  • The extractor always latches on to the second round, as it ejects when I pull the charging handle.

  • Charging handle key isn't interfering with the gas tube.

  • There's no visible damage in the feed ramps or the chamber..

  • I tried another BCG in my upper and it was just as bad.


I'm at a loss here.
Link Posted: 5/23/2016 7:16:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 5/23/2016 8:46:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Here's some answers to your questions with pictures.

Single loaded round in the mag, insert the mag, charge the round and fire the single round with the empty Mag still in the mag well. Did the bolt lock back on the bolt catch (bolt catch in front of the bolt, and not just under the carrier isntead). Locks back every time.

1. Is the mag catch assembly threaded tip flush with the face of the mag release button.  See pic below with an empty mag in the well. I may not be completely answering your question, though.



2. Are you using USGI mags, or some clone knock offs that may be causing with feed problem.  Magpul PMAGS,  Same problem with both the 20s and 30s, but I've always used them and they didn't give me any problems.

3. Do your barrel extension feed ramps match the upper. Looks like the top right of your example pic.



5. Look at the front of the lower receiver cavity just in front of the hammer, and make sure that the J spring in the bottom of the hammer is not falling out and binding up on the front wall to slow the hammer down.  Doesn't look like there's a problem with it.  I had done a full function test on the trigger and everything checked out, at least for the basics.




6. Remove the Bolt from the carrier and dry fit the bolt with carrier into the upper receiver. Is the key too wide and binging up on the upper receiver slot. when the carrier gets about a inch from touching the face of the barrel extension, the gas tube should enter cleanly into the carrier key (tube does not need to be index tweaked). Hence you should be able to stick your finger in the back of the carrier, and with little tension, it should glide all the way back, and forth with ease. If you have any binding, then pull the charging handle to try it without it as well to weed out problem with the charging handle alone.

Carrier glides back and forth with ease in the charging handle channel.  With the bolt removed, the gas key slides in and out of the gas tube without binding.  With the bolt in the carrier, there's a bit of resistance as the bolt is pulled out and it rotates, but the bolt slides into the barrel extension easily.

7. With the upper receiver still shotgun open, take a look at the index of the barrel extension in the upper receiver barrel socket. Use the center of the gas tube channel and the center of the front take down lug to make sure that the barrel extension did not rotate when the barrel nut was being tightened, and now the lugs are not indexed correctly in the upper. I don't think I understand this fully  The gas tube is centered in the channel, and the feed ramps are aligned correctly. How should I look at it to be able to answer your question?

8. Back the bolt, remove the extractor. If you find a O ring or D fender about the extractor spring, remove it and put it aside. Hence if all the above checks out, it could be that the extractor tension is too strong, and not allowing the extractor to open cleanly to snap over the case rim at loading; and what is preventing the bolt from locking up fully instead. I didn't pull the extractor out; However, the extractor grabs the case when the second round is fed, because it ejects the round every time when I pull the bolt back with the charging handle after the misfires.

9.Rifle cleaned, lubed and back together, pull all the way back on the charging handle and confirm that the face of the bolt stops about 1/8" to 1/4" in front of the back edge of the ejection ports. See pic of the bolt locked back.



Lastly, if you are running reloads... I don't use reloads. I use Wolf a lot, and I never had a problem with it other than it stinks and it's dirty.  Outside of that, it's whatever American brass-cased that's cheap when I buy bulk.

To add, you have a ton of needed information missing from your post, such as what brand and type rifle, if a factory build or you built it, and if it has any after market parts.

Seekins billet upper and lower
Seekins mag catch and release button
Guissele fixed gas block
Wilson combat Lightweight SS barrel
Guissele 2-stage trigger

The rifle was custom built.  I had a tactical gun shop referred to me in Lancaster PA build the upper/barrel/gas block.  I built the lower.


Other stuff from previous testing from my original post.  The Bore looks good.  

This is a problem that started recently, and it was running great for a couple years with no changes to any of the parts.  I vaguely remember the trip before this started that it was misfiring intermittently.  Then everything got cleaned, the chamber was mopped and it was relubed. After that, something went south.  I run the upper receiver pretty wet, but not soaking with lube.

And thank you for taking the time to detail out everything I should check.  Much appreciated.
Link Posted: 5/24/2016 7:24:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 5/24/2016 9:15:17 AM EDT
[#4]
I'm confused about the removal of the extractor and the mag catch.  the extractor is locking on the the casing as the misfired round is ejecting when I pull on the charging handle. As to the magazine catch/release assemblies, I haven't changed those parts since I installed them 2 years ago.  They haven't loosened and theres no visible damage.  

I'll try and get better pics of the chamber tonight.

Could this be a problem in the gas system?
Link Posted: 5/24/2016 10:26:13 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 5/24/2016 11:02:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Thats a great explanation, thank you.  swapping BCGs produced the same problem.  Would that matter in the diagnosis?
Link Posted: 5/24/2016 12:03:27 PM EDT
[#7]
I would pull the fire control group out and check all the springs and the trigger pins and make sure a pin isn't cracked or a spring isn't worn out or broken
Link Posted: 5/24/2016 12:13:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Will do, thanks.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 1:39:20 AM EDT
[#9]
An update.  The misfires were caused by a bad chamber.  Undoubtedly by using steel case ammo most of the time.

Lesson learned.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:25:45 PM EDT
[#10]
How did shooting steel case damage your chamber to the extent that it caused this issue?
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 4:39:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How did shooting steel case damage your chamber to the extent that it caused this issue?
View Quote

yes please do explain/elaborate
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 10:02:30 PM EDT
[#12]
I'll venture a guess that it was the typical steel case carbon hidden in dark chambery places causing failure to go into battery.
Waiting for details.
Link Posted: 6/25/2016 11:43:23 PM EDT
[#13]
It apparently scarred the chamber to the point where the cases weren't setting correctly and the round wasn't seating fully in the chamber.  Ergo, the first round would chamber correctly but after ejection the second round wouldn't.  Click.  The barrel was replaced and it works fine now..
Link Posted: 6/27/2016 3:11:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It apparently scarred the chamber to the point where the cases weren't setting correctly and the round wasn't seating fully in the chamber.  Ergo, the first round would chamber correctly but after ejection the second round wouldn't.  Click.  The barrel was replaced and it works fine now..
View Quote


You had to replace the barrel?    From shooting steel cased ammo?
Link Posted: 6/29/2016 1:50:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Yeah.  I put probably 3000 rounds of wolf through and it worked great.  Until it didn't anymore.  The problem started small and after a couple range trips (cleaning it every time afterwards) it happened every time.  The round wasn't seating in the chamber correctly after the first round was fired.  And the tactical shop that rebuilt it found scarring inside the chamber.  We sent an email to BCM and they asserted that steel case ammo should not be used in ARs as it causes problems all the time.  Same opinion of the rebuilders.  YMMV.  See the list of diagnostics in the thread above.  The chamber was the only part that could have been the problem.  Sucks that I had to replace it, but it is what it is.
Link Posted: 6/29/2016 2:27:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 6/29/2016 2:46:30 PM EDT
[#17]
It was a Wilson combat 1/8 SS lightweight 16" 5.56 chrome-lined.  Guissele fixed gas block.
Link Posted: 6/29/2016 8:26:44 PM EDT
[#18]
I just think many here are curious how steel cased ammo damaged the chamber?   Most of us realize how steel cased ammo "can" affect an AR and the caution to shooting it is usually simply paying more attention to chamber cleaning.    But that's to help prevent stuck brass cases.   That being said actually damaging the chamber seems a little odd.

Two trains of thoughts with many AR guys.  1.  If it won't shoot steel ammo there's an issue with the gun.  2.  I won't put steel though my AR.

I think in many peoples minds it's not so much the steel casing as how the ammo is loaded.(powder charge, burn rates, etc)

Of course you could have had some defective chamber from the start but didn't present itself until after a lot of ammo was sent downrange.    Your issue is somewhat odd though.    So who knows.

Read this long report from Lucky Gunner Labs from a test they did a few years ago.   Some interesting info although some question the validity from shooting the guns so hot(barrels).

Brass vs Steel Cased Ammo
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 2:18:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Wilson might want to see the barrel.

I cannot imagine steel-cased ammo damaging a chromed chamber.

I have an easy 3k of steel through a bushmaster with no damage that I have seen.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 11:32:18 PM EDT
[#20]
I kept the old barrel, but I haven't contacted Wilson yet.  The only thing it could have been was the barrel. After it was replaced, it cycles fine. There hadn't been any other problems with it up until it died, but the problem got consistently worse over three range trips.  And I almost always used Wolf because it's cheaper and it worked fine up until that point.

The gunsmith that rebuilt the upper was shocked that a Wilson barrel was shot out like that and advised me to contact them and see what they wanted to do about it.  Although the shop where I had it replaced doesn't sell steel case and BCM was pretty emphatic that they see a lot of problems with it.  YMMV.   When I get around to contacting Wilson I'll post their reply here.
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