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Posted: 8/26/2015 9:49:45 PM EDT
I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to alleviate this issue I'm having. I have 4 uppers set up almost identical (16" midlength, 5.56 1/7, all running AIM nitride bcg, standard carbine buffer/spring). and ALL except one will run both brass and steel cased with no issues.
This one, however, will not cycle even ONE steel cased. EVERY time it will get stuck in the chamber to the point where it requires a rod and considerable hammer pounding to remove it.
The cases (once knocked out) come out looking like this:



None of my other uppers case cases to look like this. To my untrained eye, the cases look like it's showing a chamber that's too tight. I have tried to contact the manufacturer and they basically told me to pound sand claiming "if it cycles brass cased, it works as intended". I'm not satisfied with that, and would like to make this run steel if possible (I shoot both steel and brass, but prefer a rifle that can cycle BOTH).  The extractor also looks to be trying REALLY hard to pull it (it does not sheer the case rim, but does sheer the rim edge smooth trying to yank it). The same bolt/carrier also has zero issue with steel in the other uppers.
You guys are far more knowledgeable than I am about this sort of thing. Can someone enlighten me as what the steel cases (they all look like this from this rifle) may be telling me (besides: "I don't like steel" haha)?

Oh, and the upper is a PSA 16" midlength Freedom Melonite 1/7 upper.

Is there any recourse of action to make this run steel?
Thank you for your help!
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 12:31:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 9:36:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Thank you for all the info!

This is what the case rims look like:



I've been meaning to get a set a "go, no go" gauges, and I guess NOW they're overdue! I'll try them next.

ETA: oh my god... sorry for the pic quality... photobucket is killing me with it's filtering
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 10:08:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 10:54:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Ah, thank you for that info! "Go, no go gauges" are ordered and in route! And yes, now that you mention it... the primer has SERIOUSLY been flattened out! I compared one of the spent casings (from the problem upper) to one of those from my trouble free uppers:



Definitely a pressure issue going on here. Emailed PSA that YES, this thing IS going back to them for inspection (and hopefully they don't just test fire it again with brass, but actually INSPECT it).
Thank you to both of you who replied, for both your time AND knowledge!
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 12:40:58 AM EDT
[#5]
Ok... update here. I received my PSA upper back with a note from the gunsmith saying it works fine with both steel/brass and headspace is fine.
So.... I checked the headspace myself with my OWN bcg (AIM nitride) and it will not pass headspace properly (it WILL go in, but has to be seriously forced). So... I tried another bolt... same deal.
This is the bolt that I used initially test firing it (which had the failures and also, IMO, seems to have unusual wear especially considering it only has 40 rounds on it):



So now I'm confused.... where should I go from here? Is it that their "fine" is BARELY adequate (to the point where it induces failures), or is there something else I should be chasing with this upper (or BCG)? Any help here? Thank you.
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 1:12:57 AM EDT
[#6]
Obvious questions first.
Steel cases reloaded ?
What Steel ammo did the Gunsmith use ? different than yours !
Have you mic'ed your Steel cases before fireing
Is the steel cased ammo you are having trouble with now the same as fired in other uppers ? Or have you changed ammo manufacturers ?

The answer you don't want !    Don't shoot steel cased ammo in that one. It does not like it !
Steel cased ammo causes issues for a lot of people. You are not alone.
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 1:14:12 AM EDT
[#7]
I had about 5 cases of steel in my stach and this one hot day at the range, the stuck case fate struck me.  I had to unload about 30 mags, thank goodness for the LULA.  I gave those rounds to a friend with a Mini 14.  I sold the 5 cases on Backpage for a profit. I replaced it with IMI and LC, and some brass cased Russian stuff.  




Funny thing is, since I am shooting brass, I no longer have stuck cases. Just fucking magical.







List:  Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, LMT, PWA.  Good variety, but when the conditions are right, if you are using steel, you better have a backup plan.  







OP:  you need to clean the shit out of your chamber with a NEW chamber brush and good solvent.  Switch to brass.


 
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 1:23:04 AM EDT
[#8]
The steel (Wolf, Tula) that I test fired this with is the same lot that my other uppers have no issue with. They are factory, non reloads. PSA 'smith said he also tested Tula with no issues in this upper (different from my own experience).
Even as a "brass only" upper... I'm concerned with the unusual bolt wear (that's only 40 rounds on that thing) and the unusual force required to close on a foster min gauge (which my other uppers, with same bcg closes on smoothly with no force).
Not sure if this additional info helps or not?
ETA: and yes, I've switched to Wolf Gold, but still have a LOT of steel cased left. I will not put up with an upper that is finicky, as there may come a day when good brass is not easily available and would have to resort back to steel.
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 7:46:13 AM EDT
[#9]
The wear on the bolt face may be from dropping the bolt on an empty chamber. The melonite barrel process may be harder than the bolt is hardened causing finish wear when closing on an empty chamber.
I have had a couple of barrels with rough chambers that caused hazing on the case similar to your case in appearance.
I would not recommend trying to do any additional reaming of the chamber because the of the melonited surface may dull the reamer or not cut any at all.

Link Posted: 9/10/2015 8:17:31 AM EDT
[#10]
I've only had one rifle do this to me, don't know why and don't care but removing the oring under the extractor fixed it. Worth a try
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 12:49:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 1:19:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Tagged for updates as I have a DSG upper that did this to me last time I was at the range.  Had previously fired a little over 100 rounds of Tula when a case stuck. Had to use a rod down the muzzle to clear it.  Switched to brass and haven't had any issues.  
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 2:15:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


When checking head space, both the extractor and ejector needs to be pulled from the bolt.  

So again, scrub the chamber with a chamber brush and CLP, use patches to dry the chamber, then with the extractor and ejector removed from the bolt, head space check the combo with the bolt you are going to be running in the barrel.  If the headspace is coming up short, then this will cause the over pressure of the round, since instead of it fitting the chamber correctly, the case is wedged in the chamber/will have less blow by at firing forming instead.

Also, different bolts may head space differently, so you need to make sure that you are head space checking with the bolt that you are going to be running in the rig.  As for head spacing check, just push on the back of the carrier and only very light pressure should be needed for the bolt to lock home/front of the carrier to touch the back of the barrel extension. If you left the ejector in place, then a little more pressure to retract the extractor into the bolt face, but that does not take much more pressure over it removed instead.

Also, take a photo of the clean chamber and post it.  The chamber side walls should be mirror smooth.

To sum it up, the steel case is going over pressure in the rig, and is all about a chamber on the too tight head space side.  As for the scrapes on the case, could be a dirty chamber that was not cleaned correctly, or just a rough reamed chamber instead.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok... update here. I received my PSA upper back with a note from the gunsmith saying it works fine with both steel/brass and headspace is fine.
So.... I checked the headspace myself with my OWN bcg (AIM nitride) and it will not pass headspace properly (it WILL go in, but has to be seriously forced). So... I tried another bolt... same deal.
This is the bolt that I used initially test firing it (which had the failures and also, IMO, seems to have unusual wear especially considering it only has 40 rounds on it):

<a href="http://s492.photobucket.com/user/kmildhs/media/IMG_0946.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/kmildhs/IMG_0946.jpg</a>

So now I'm confused.... where should I go from here? Is it that their "fine" is BARELY adequate (to the point where it induces failures), or is there something else I should be chasing with this upper (or BCG)? Any help here? Thank you.


When checking head space, both the extractor and ejector needs to be pulled from the bolt.  

So again, scrub the chamber with a chamber brush and CLP, use patches to dry the chamber, then with the extractor and ejector removed from the bolt, head space check the combo with the bolt you are going to be running in the barrel.  If the headspace is coming up short, then this will cause the over pressure of the round, since instead of it fitting the chamber correctly, the case is wedged in the chamber/will have less blow by at firing forming instead.

Also, different bolts may head space differently, so you need to make sure that you are head space checking with the bolt that you are going to be running in the rig.  As for head spacing check, just push on the back of the carrier and only very light pressure should be needed for the bolt to lock home/front of the carrier to touch the back of the barrel extension. If you left the ejector in place, then a little more pressure to retract the extractor into the bolt face, but that does not take much more pressure over it removed instead.

Also, take a photo of the clean chamber and post it.  The chamber side walls should be mirror smooth.

To sum it up, the steel case is going over pressure in the rig, and is all about a chamber on the too tight head space side.  As for the scrapes on the case, could be a dirty chamber that was not cleaned correctly, or just a rough reamed chamber instead.


Thank you for the info!
Yes, I stripped ejector and extractor from both bolts that I used to check head space. Both would go in, but required unusual pressure on the back of BCG to seat (unlike my other uppers, which seat easily). I had suspected this barrel to have a tight chamber, but PSA gunsmith tells me it's fine.., so I'm at a loss here.
I don't think this upper is worth more gunsmith costs, so it looks like I'll be selling it (with disclosed info).
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 11:09:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Another update:
PSA offered it's return (again) accompanied with my bcg to help determine the issue (last time it was returned w/o my bcg). I'm impressed with this turnabout of CS and think this is now above and beyond normal CS. My hat's off to PSA!  Hopefully this will get resolved, but either way.. I appreciate PSA taking the extra efforts to help determine the cause.
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 2:59:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 3:56:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
MaverickAA,
Got to ask, but how do you send a barrel/upper without the bolt that is going to be run in it, to be checked for a head spacing problems in the first first time around?

We would all love to believe that all the bolts every produced will all be the same, but they are not, and with a few thousands difference between the face of the bolt to the recess of the bolt face/ face of the bolt to the back of the rear of the lugs, this can add up to just how the barrel will head space with a specific bolt instead.

Hate to say it, with you sending the barrel with the bolt you are going to run in the barrel to PSA now, this is the first time that they can really check the head spacing of the combo to begin with.
View Quote

True. The BCG was not theirs, so I had a brain fart and initially sent the upper back without it. My mistake.
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 8:55:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 9:58:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
On the positive note,
At least you know that PSA does have bolts that will head space correctly  on the barrel if the one you sent is does not.
View Quote

Good point!
Link Posted: 9/19/2015 1:00:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Thoughts from a noob:

1- AR was designed to use brass case ammo.  (So was my FAL and every other firearm I own except for the SKS which is the only firearm I will shoot steel case ammo with.  ever.)

2- tolerance stacking

tagged to follow...
Link Posted: 9/19/2015 5:38:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 9:33:03 PM EDT
[#21]
The reason that most guns don't like steel cases is because the case and chamber expand together radially when the gun is fired, and once the pressure drops off the case does NOT shrink down so that it is free of the chamber.  It is extremely tight in there.  Brass and aluminum cases will shrink down because they have lower moduli of elasticity.  No amount of polishing or cleaning will address this, but it might reduce the friction so that an extremely hard "jolt" will break it free of the chamber.  This is also why steel cases tend to beat the crap out of extractors.

Is the chamber chrome plated?
Link Posted: 9/22/2015 1:25:17 AM EDT
[#22]
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