User Panel
[#1]
Have you checked the headspace to make sure it meets the minimum length, if you do not have access to headspace gauges then you may consult with a gunsmith. Thoroughly clean the chamber using a good solvent and chamber brush. Once clean, look in the chamber (using a flashlight to help) and see if there are any signs of roughness to the chamber. When you shoot brass in this barrel, are there any markings on the brass casings that are similar to the steel casings after firing? Also look at the backside of the casings (both brass and steel case) for any signs of over pressure.
CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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[#2]
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[#3]
FP protrusion is on the deep side (tip should protrude .028" to .032" out of the face of the bolt when the collar on it is tight to the back side of the bolt), and as for the spent primer, showing signs of high pressure as well.
So either the throat is short on the chamber and your getting a bullet inbed as chambering, or the side walls cross side wall demensions/head space is tight, and this is causing less blow by at firing forming expansion to cause the higher working pressures of a normal working pressure rounds. Bluntly, the chamber needs to be scrubbed clean with a chamber brush and CLP, then checked with a head space gauge once the chamber has been dried with patches since the spent case is screaming "Problems". |
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[#6]
Obvious questions first.
Steel cases reloaded ? What Steel ammo did the Gunsmith use ? different than yours ! Have you mic'ed your Steel cases before fireing Is the steel cased ammo you are having trouble with now the same as fired in other uppers ? Or have you changed ammo manufacturers ? The answer you don't want ! Don't shoot steel cased ammo in that one. It does not like it ! Steel cased ammo causes issues for a lot of people. You are not alone. |
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[#7]
I had about 5 cases of steel in my stach and this one hot day at the range, the stuck case fate struck me. I had to unload about 30 mags, thank goodness for the LULA. I gave those rounds to a friend with a Mini 14. I sold the 5 cases on Backpage for a profit. I replaced it with IMI and LC, and some brass cased Russian stuff.
Funny thing is, since I am shooting brass, I no longer have stuck cases. Just fucking magical. List: Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, LMT, PWA. Good variety, but when the conditions are right, if you are using steel, you better have a backup plan. OP: you need to clean the shit out of your chamber with a NEW chamber brush and good solvent. Switch to brass. |
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[#8]
The steel (Wolf, Tula) that I test fired this with is the same lot that my other uppers have no issue with. They are factory, non reloads. PSA 'smith said he also tested Tula with no issues in this upper (different from my own experience).
Even as a "brass only" upper... I'm concerned with the unusual bolt wear (that's only 40 rounds on that thing) and the unusual force required to close on a foster min gauge (which my other uppers, with same bcg closes on smoothly with no force). Not sure if this additional info helps or not? ETA: and yes, I've switched to Wolf Gold, but still have a LOT of steel cased left. I will not put up with an upper that is finicky, as there may come a day when good brass is not easily available and would have to resort back to steel. |
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[#9]
The wear on the bolt face may be from dropping the bolt on an empty chamber. The melonite barrel process may be harder than the bolt is hardened causing finish wear when closing on an empty chamber.
I have had a couple of barrels with rough chambers that caused hazing on the case similar to your case in appearance. I would not recommend trying to do any additional reaming of the chamber because the of the melonited surface may dull the reamer or not cut any at all. |
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[#10]
I've only had one rifle do this to me, don't know why and don't care but removing the oring under the extractor fixed it. Worth a try
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[#11]
Quoted:
Ok... update here. I received my PSA upper back with a note from the gunsmith saying it works fine with both steel/brass and headspace is fine. So.... I checked the headspace myself with my OWN bcg (AIM nitride) and it will not pass headspace properly (it WILL go in, but has to be seriously forced). So... I tried another bolt... same deal. This is the bolt that I used initially test firing it (which had the failures and also, IMO, seems to have unusual wear especially considering it only has 40 rounds on it): <a href="http://s492.photobucket.com/user/kmildhs/media/IMG_0946.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/kmildhs/IMG_0946.jpg</a> So now I'm confused.... where should I go from here? Is it that their "fine" is BARELY adequate (to the point where it induces failures), or is there something else I should be chasing with this upper (or BCG)? Any help here? Thank you. View Quote When checking head space, both the extractor and ejector needs to be pulled from the bolt. So again, scrub the chamber with a chamber brush and CLP, use patches to dry the chamber, then with the extractor and ejector removed from the bolt, head space check the combo with the bolt you are going to be running in the barrel. If the headspace is coming up short, then this will cause the over pressure of the round, since instead of it fitting the chamber correctly, the case is wedged in the chamber/will have less blow by at firing forming instead. Also, different bolts may head space differently, so you need to make sure that you are head space checking with the bolt that you are going to be running in the rig. As for head spacing check, just push on the back of the carrier and only very light pressure should be needed for the bolt to lock home/front of the carrier to touch the back of the barrel extension. If you left the ejector in place, then a little more pressure to retract the extractor into the bolt face, but that does not take much more pressure over it removed instead. Also, take a photo of the clean chamber and post it. The chamber side walls should be mirror smooth. To sum it up, the steel case is going over pressure in the rig, and is all about a chamber on the too tight head space side. As for the scrapes on the case, could be a dirty chamber that was not cleaned correctly, or just a rough reamed chamber instead. |
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[#12]
Tagged for updates as I have a DSG upper that did this to me last time I was at the range. Had previously fired a little over 100 rounds of Tula when a case stuck. Had to use a rod down the muzzle to clear it. Switched to brass and haven't had any issues.
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[#13]
Quoted:
When checking head space, both the extractor and ejector needs to be pulled from the bolt. So again, scrub the chamber with a chamber brush and CLP, use patches to dry the chamber, then with the extractor and ejector removed from the bolt, head space check the combo with the bolt you are going to be running in the barrel. If the headspace is coming up short, then this will cause the over pressure of the round, since instead of it fitting the chamber correctly, the case is wedged in the chamber/will have less blow by at firing forming instead. Also, different bolts may head space differently, so you need to make sure that you are head space checking with the bolt that you are going to be running in the rig. As for head spacing check, just push on the back of the carrier and only very light pressure should be needed for the bolt to lock home/front of the carrier to touch the back of the barrel extension. If you left the ejector in place, then a little more pressure to retract the extractor into the bolt face, but that does not take much more pressure over it removed instead. Also, take a photo of the clean chamber and post it. The chamber side walls should be mirror smooth. To sum it up, the steel case is going over pressure in the rig, and is all about a chamber on the too tight head space side. As for the scrapes on the case, could be a dirty chamber that was not cleaned correctly, or just a rough reamed chamber instead. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok... update here. I received my PSA upper back with a note from the gunsmith saying it works fine with both steel/brass and headspace is fine. So.... I checked the headspace myself with my OWN bcg (AIM nitride) and it will not pass headspace properly (it WILL go in, but has to be seriously forced). So... I tried another bolt... same deal. This is the bolt that I used initially test firing it (which had the failures and also, IMO, seems to have unusual wear especially considering it only has 40 rounds on it): <a href="http://s492.photobucket.com/user/kmildhs/media/IMG_0946.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/kmildhs/IMG_0946.jpg</a> So now I'm confused.... where should I go from here? Is it that their "fine" is BARELY adequate (to the point where it induces failures), or is there something else I should be chasing with this upper (or BCG)? Any help here? Thank you. When checking head space, both the extractor and ejector needs to be pulled from the bolt. So again, scrub the chamber with a chamber brush and CLP, use patches to dry the chamber, then with the extractor and ejector removed from the bolt, head space check the combo with the bolt you are going to be running in the barrel. If the headspace is coming up short, then this will cause the over pressure of the round, since instead of it fitting the chamber correctly, the case is wedged in the chamber/will have less blow by at firing forming instead. Also, different bolts may head space differently, so you need to make sure that you are head space checking with the bolt that you are going to be running in the rig. As for head spacing check, just push on the back of the carrier and only very light pressure should be needed for the bolt to lock home/front of the carrier to touch the back of the barrel extension. If you left the ejector in place, then a little more pressure to retract the extractor into the bolt face, but that does not take much more pressure over it removed instead. Also, take a photo of the clean chamber and post it. The chamber side walls should be mirror smooth. To sum it up, the steel case is going over pressure in the rig, and is all about a chamber on the too tight head space side. As for the scrapes on the case, could be a dirty chamber that was not cleaned correctly, or just a rough reamed chamber instead. Thank you for the info! Yes, I stripped ejector and extractor from both bolts that I used to check head space. Both would go in, but required unusual pressure on the back of BCG to seat (unlike my other uppers, which seat easily). I had suspected this barrel to have a tight chamber, but PSA gunsmith tells me it's fine.., so I'm at a loss here. I don't think this upper is worth more gunsmith costs, so it looks like I'll be selling it (with disclosed info). |
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[#14]
Another update:
PSA offered it's return (again) accompanied with my bcg to help determine the issue (last time it was returned w/o my bcg). I'm impressed with this turnabout of CS and think this is now above and beyond normal CS. My hat's off to PSA! Hopefully this will get resolved, but either way.. I appreciate PSA taking the extra efforts to help determine the cause. |
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[#15]
MaverickAA,
Got to ask, but how do you send a barrel/upper without the bolt that is going to be run in it, to be checked for a head spacing problems in the first first time around? We would all love to believe that all the bolts every produced will all be the same, but they are not, and with a few thousands difference between the face of the bolt to the recess of the bolt face/ face of the bolt to the back of the rear of the lugs, this can add up to just how the barrel will head space with a specific bolt instead. Hate to say it, with you sending the barrel with the bolt you are going to run in the barrel to PSA now, this is the first time that they can really check the head spacing of the combo to begin with. |
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[#16]
Quoted:
MaverickAA, Got to ask, but how do you send a barrel/upper without the bolt that is going to be run in it, to be checked for a head spacing problems in the first first time around? We would all love to believe that all the bolts every produced will all be the same, but they are not, and with a few thousands difference between the face of the bolt to the recess of the bolt face/ face of the bolt to the back of the rear of the lugs, this can add up to just how the barrel will head space with a specific bolt instead. Hate to say it, with you sending the barrel with the bolt you are going to run in the barrel to PSA now, this is the first time that they can really check the head spacing of the combo to begin with. View Quote True. The BCG was not theirs, so I had a brain fart and initially sent the upper back without it. My mistake. |
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[#17]
On the positive note,
At least you know that PSA does have bolts that will head space correctly on the barrel if the one you sent is does not. |
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[#18]
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[#19]
Thoughts from a noob:
1- AR was designed to use brass case ammo. (So was my FAL and every other firearm I own except for the SKS which is the only firearm I will shoot steel case ammo with. ever.) 2- tolerance stacking tagged to follow... |
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[#20]
In time of war when brass becomes scarce, even USA has produced/ used steel case ammo (such as in WWII).
IIRQ, the 30 carbine steel case ammo was head stamped EC 43, but can't remember the head stamps on the rest of the ammo's. So to say that the M-16 was not designed to use steel case ammo, way over the top, since if push comes to shove and brass becomes scarce again with a big enough conflict world wide, you can bank that the military will have no problems issuing steel case ammo, instead of having a shortage on ammo to issure instead (read, hard to win a gun fight, when all your rifles are good for is clubs instead). |
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[#21]
The reason that most guns don't like steel cases is because the case and chamber expand together radially when the gun is fired, and once the pressure drops off the case does NOT shrink down so that it is free of the chamber. It is extremely tight in there. Brass and aluminum cases will shrink down because they have lower moduli of elasticity. No amount of polishing or cleaning will address this, but it might reduce the friction so that an extremely hard "jolt" will break it free of the chamber. This is also why steel cases tend to beat the crap out of extractors.
Is the chamber chrome plated? |
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