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Posted: 1/29/2015 8:09:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hi there Yes I got reply from SRC and they think this is barrel problem and the headspace problem as well. They asked to measure the distance from the face of the bolt extension to the flat barrel , it should be 0.500" exactly. SRC suspects that the distance could be .480" or so.. That .020" would be enough to prohibit the bolt from engaging and cause the damage to the barrel. I can't measure without dissassembling upper so I need some time for this. Out of town right now. I will post update here as soon as measure this distance as well as the headspace (package with Gauges almost here) If standard bolts locked in I would bet you will get the .500" to .501". Not positive but I think a standard bolt has only about .005" play between the inside of the extension and the face of a barrel. Are the lugs wider on a relia-bolt than on a standard AR bolt? I think they measure around .280" on a standard AR style bolt? |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 10:51:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In spec thing's don't stack up to cause problems, that's why we have dimensional tolerancing it the first place. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dropping the bolt on an empty chamber should do no harm. That is the first time I have seen damage like that, and I don't know the fix. Either the carrier, the bolt, or the barrel extension is out of spec. Could possibly be that everything is in spec, just tolerance stacking. But I'd be willing to be that it's the bolt. It's amazing to me how meaning people spout the "tolerance stacking" all the engineers here (aerospace) laugh at that. |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 5:16:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Like to think of it as more of "slop allowances" instead.
Needed Slop allowances is what allows the AR rifle to run with it starts to foul up. 
While tolerance stacking is more of what caused the space shuttle launch rocket boosters to roman candle instead from the cold/failed O rings. 
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Posted: 2/4/2015 9:07:31 AM EDT
[#4]
Any "Official" news on what caused the issue?
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Posted: 2/4/2015 9:48:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Hi guys I will post update definitely .
I will return on Saturday and going to measure the barrel by SRC request. 300 Blk gauges already delivered. 
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Posted: 2/4/2015 3:03:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hi guys I will post update definitely . I will return on Saturday and going to measure the barrel by SRC request. 300 Blk gauges already delivered. http://cisco.avtf.org/guns/0relia/300blk_gauges.jpg What does head space have to do with it???? Even if the rig turns out to be too tight on the head space, and will not even close on a go gauge, still does not matter, since ammo is sized smaller than standard head space/ the force of the B/C charging home is enough to force the case smaller to still allow the bolt smaller OD lugs to still impact the taper section of the barrel. Next, When you lock the bolt home on a empty chamber from either a charging handle pull/from just hitting the bolt release with the bolt locked back on it, there is not enough mating surface between a standard barrels beach outer lug matting surface to the outer lug surfaces of the mod'd bolt, and the mod'd shorter OD bolt lugs are going to dent the hell out of the taper section of the barrel chamber entry way just like they have. Again, mod'd bolt may work for a off brand type barrel that does not have the taper entry section that is not a standard AR barrel, but is not going to work for a standard AR barrel without denting the hell out of the taper section. So back to the facts, With bolt reduces OD bolt lugs size smaller than a standard barrel taper section/does not have of the needed overall between the shortened lugs to the barrel outer bolt lug matting surface to prevent the penning of the standard AR barrel taper section. Bluntly, You want to run this bolt, then you need to run a one off barrel that does not have chamber standard taper section of a standard Colt type AR barrel. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 7:47:04 PM EDT
[#7]
I understand this for sure and I know what is headspace mean. Pretty sure the barrel was damaged with empty chamber.
But I've already posted SRC's sugesstions about this issue. So I will do these measurments for SRC no probs. BTW i think that there are no issues with Noveske barrel, but I will check everything for detailed analysis and will post result here. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#8]
So then the question becomes.... Do we think that the Relia-bolt would have been a much larger seller if it had been "Milspec" dimensions but still made of S7 steel with a NP3 or Nickel Boron coating?
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Posted: 2/4/2015 8:36:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if the rig turns out to be too tight on the head space, and will not even close on a go gauge, still does not matter, since ammo is sized smaller than standard head space/ the force of the B/C charging home is enough to force the case smaller to still allow the bolt smaller OD lugs to still impact the taper section of the barrel. When a standard carrier is used (where the carrier is stopped against the outside edge of the barrel extension) the bolt should not be able to slam into the barrel at the moment the carrier contacts the barrel extension. Because, the bolt lugs from the rear edge to front edge measure 0.278" +/- 0.002", and the area of the barrel extension the bolt lugs reside within when the bolt's in battery measures 0.283" + 0.006". With the bolt and barrel extension meeting specification, the front edge of the bolt's lugs are 0.005" thousandths of an inch from touching the flat portion of the barrel that's just outside the barrel cone; but will still be within specification if the bolt is 0.003" thousandths of an inch to 0.013" thousandths of an inch from touching the flat portion of the barrel that is outside the cone. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 8:51:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But I've already posted SRC's sugesstions about this issue. So I will do these measurments for SRC no probs.
BTW i think that there are no issues with Noveske barrel, but I will check everything for detailed analysis and will post result here. You are going to have to remove the barrel from the upper receiver to get the one measurement you mentioned SRC asked you to check which is from the outside edge of the barrel extension to the flat area just outside the barrel cone. Looking at the first blueprint below that is the length of the barrel extension lugs (0.220" -0.002"; this dimension is determined using the second blueprint below), plus from the inside edge of the barrel extension lugs to the flat area outside the barrel cone (0.283" +0.006). The depth you are looking for is 0.503". But, is still within specification if it measures from 0.501" to 0.509" inches. 
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Posted: 2/4/2015 9:34:40 PM EDT
[#11]
That happened once to a complete rifle I bought from DD. I emailed pictures to them and they said it need to be replaced. They installed a new barrel and gave me a new bcg.
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Posted: 2/4/2015 10:26:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That happened once to a complete rifle I bought from DD. I emailed pictures to them and they said it need to be replaced. They installed a new barrel and gave me a new bcg. So you had the same issue with a reputable upper and Milspec bolt? Did DD explain the cause? |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:06:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When a standard carrier is used (where the carrier is stopped against the outside edge of the barrel extension) the bolt should not be able to slam into the barrel at the moment the carrier contacts the barrel extension. Because, the bolt lugs from the rear edge to front edge measure 0.278" +/- 0.002", and the area of the barrel extension the bolt lugs reside within when the bolt's in battery measures 0.283" + 0.006". With the bolt and barrel extension meeting specification, the front edge of the bolt's lugs are 0.005" thousandths of an inch from touching the flat portion of the barrel that's just outside the barrel cone; but will still be within specification if the bolt is 0.003" thousandths of an inch to 0.013" thousandths of an inch from touching the flat portion of the barrel that is outside the cone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Even if the rig turns out to be too tight on the head space, and will not even close on a go gauge, still does not matter, since ammo is sized smaller than standard head space/ the force of the B/C charging home is enough to force the case smaller to still allow the bolt smaller OD lugs to still impact the taper section of the barrel. When a standard carrier is used (where the carrier is stopped against the outside edge of the barrel extension) the bolt should not be able to slam into the barrel at the moment the carrier contacts the barrel extension. Because, the bolt lugs from the rear edge to front edge measure 0.278" +/- 0.002", and the area of the barrel extension the bolt lugs reside within when the bolt's in battery measures 0.283" + 0.006". With the bolt and barrel extension meeting specification, the front edge of the bolt's lugs are 0.005" thousandths of an inch from touching the flat portion of the barrel that's just outside the barrel cone; but will still be within specification if the bolt is 0.003" thousandths of an inch to 0.013" thousandths of an inch from touching the flat portion of the barrel that is outside the cone. This is how I believe it functions The bolt slams into the barrel because it is extended away from the carrier and with no round being loaded reaches the barrel before the carrier impacts the extension. If a round is loaded the round stops the bolts travel as it bottoms out on the bolt face and the extractor engages the case rim. The carrier continues forward twisting the bolt locking it in place and is stopped by the extension. I would guess the reasons they want to know the headspace is if it is too much the round chambers to far into the barrel allowing the bolt to impact the barrel. If the barrel is screwed into the extension to far the bolt may impact the barrel even if the the headspace seems correct. But I will be surprised if either of those turn out to be the cause. |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 8:59:14 AM EDT
[#14]
So guys sorry for the delay with my reply, I am at home now.
As I told before finally I've received Clymer 300BLK GO/NO-GO gauges and was able to measure the Upper with Noveske Barrel. I've measured the headspace and it is OK - the GO gauge closes and the NO-GO gauge doesn't close (check video below). After measuring headspace I disassembled the upper and measured the barrel extension from the face of the bolt extension to the flat of the barrel, and it is exactly 0.500" So I have conclusion that my Noveske barrel manufactured In Spec and it is fit well. I've completed all measures with BCM BCG , to prevent any additional damage from the SRC Bolt. To prove my words I've recorded video of my measurements (for SRC company) and here are results: 1) using 300BLK GO Gauge https://vimeo.com/118987556 2) using 300BLK NO-GO Gauge https://vimeo.com/118987558 3) measuring barrel extension to flat https://vimeo.com/118989172 So... No any problems with the Bolt Carrier, no problems with the Barrel, only one option left - it is the SRC bolt. I've just reported this to SRC and looking forward for their reply. |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 12:27:04 PM EDT
[#15]
I wonder if the LMT Enhanced Carrier may have compatibility issues when used with the Relia-bolt? I wondered this because the LMT Enhanced Carrier is stopped when it contacts with the barrel extension lugs; where your standard "milspec" carrier is stopped when it contacts the outer edge of the barrel extension.
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Posted: 2/9/2015 4:10:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Maybe... But there are test results with painted lugs published on page Two - the same situation with different carriers. Let's wait for SRC reply.
Now I am sure that the Barrel is OK and In spec, and i 100% know that my BCM BCG is also working flawlessly in another rifle with no damage. |
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Posted: 2/11/2015 6:53:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe... But there are test results with painted lugs published on page Two - the same situation with different carriers. Let's wait for SRC reply. Now I am sure that the Barrel is OK and In spec, and i 100% know that my BCM BCG is also working flawlessly in another rifle with no damage. So have you received a response from SRC? |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 11:42:01 AM EDT
[#18]
No reply...
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Posted: 2/16/2015 4:08:43 AM EDT
[#19]
I have a Relia-bolt, but have yet to fire it due to still recovering from shattering my knee last summer. My barrel is a 416R stainless steel barrel that is chambered for 6.5 PCC, and was made by Black Hole Weaponry. The carrier I am using is a Rubber City Armory Low Mass Carrier.
Since you had brought up this issue of having these markings happen to your Noveske barrel, I was curious to see if this would happen to my barrel. Being you mentioned you only shot 14-15 rounds through it. So I pulled the charging handle all the way back on an empty barrel, and sling shot the charging handle at first 5 consecutive times. I inspected the barrel cone, and no markings were there. So, I pulled the charging handle all the way back on an empty barrel once more, and sling shot the charging handle another 10 consecutive times. I inspected the barrel cone again, and it still had zero markings. Quoted: I wonder if the LMT Enhanced Carrier may have compatibility issues when used with the Relia-bolt? I wondered this because the LMT Enhanced Carrier is stopped when it contacts with the barrel extension lugs; where your standard "milspec" carrier is stopped when it contacts the outer edge of the barrel extension.
Quoted: Maybe... But there are test results with painted lugs published on page Two - the same situation with different carriers. When you tested the Relia-bolt with your BCM carrier, it was after noticing the gouges had occurred; is this correct? |
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Posted: 2/16/2015 4:21:10 AM EDT
[#20]
I can post pictures of my barrel for comparing? Just let me know.
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Posted: 2/17/2015 11:50:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Sure, please post your pictures here. You're welcome!
I am not expert , and I can't prove that the reason is exactly Relia bolt. I sent message to SRC several times but still not reply. They told it can be headspace issue - but everything is OK w/ headspace and w/ barrel extension, video with measurement above in the topic. After these results there are not reply for almost 2 weeks. I guess each part of AR-15 should be compartible for 100% , otherwise this is clear stated by manufacturer like for example Vltor A5 buffer tube works only with Vltor buffer. And there are no doubts that LMT, Noveske, BCM are well known Brands with Top quality products. And marks on barrel are from the Bolt exactly. That's why I started this topic to try to determine the reason. |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 12:04:16 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryWhen you tested the Relia-bolt with your BCM carrier, it was after noticing the gouges had occurred; is this correct? Yes you're correct. I made 14 shots total from Brand New condition with LMT+Relia then realized the problem. Since that time I did only testing with no live fire or strikes with no cartridge in the chamber, to prevent any additional damage to the barrel. Everything posted here in this topic. I was looking forward for SRC reply, but I feel they just ignoring me for present moment. |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 12:51:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: I was looking forward for SRC reply, but I feel they just ignoring me for present moment.
Call Sharps and ask for the President of the Company. When I initially purchased the Relia-bolt, I had questions about it. When I first called, the person that answered the phone, transferred me to someone that wasn't really much help. So, I researched and found who the higher-ups were. I called back days later, and asked if the President was available. The person answering the phones told me when he'd be in. So, I called back then, and was transferred to him. He took the time to answer all my questions, and did not try to rush me off the phone like I have experienced with different businesses (not necessarily firearms related either). |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 1:04:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess each part of AR-15 should be compartible for 100% , otherwise this is clear stated by manufacturer like for example Vltor A5 buffer tube works only with Vltor buffer. That depends whether they tested the Relia-bolt with the LMT Enhanced Carrier to determine its capatibility. Because they might not know how the LMT carrier contacts the barrel extension at the extension's lugs. They probably (this is purely a guess, but seems reasonable) tested the Relia-bolt only using your standard carrier (as in carriers that contact the outer edge of the barrel extension). This would make a Relia-bolt using an LMT Enhanced Carrier uncharted territory. Now, I'm not saying your at fault. Because you wouldn't have been aware of this. That is of course if there is a compatibility issue. Lastly, my barrel though chambered for 6.5 PCC, is a wildcat round which uses 223 REM / 5.56 NATO brass cases. I'll get some pictures taken, and post them. |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 1:50:31 AM EDT
[#25]
This thread was very illuminating.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 8:30:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The front of the bolt lugs have nothing to do with headspace. Headspace will be determined by the measurement from the rear of the lugs to the bolt face. ??? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:51:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Any updates?
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Posted: 2/26/2015 2:33:56 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes I got reply from SRC and they think this is barrel problem and the headspace problem as well. They asked to measure the distance from the face of the bolt extension to the flat barrel , it should be 0.500" exactly. SRC suspects that the distance could be .480" or so.. That .020" would be enough to prohibit the bolt from engaging and cause the damage to the barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes I got reply from SRC and they think this is barrel problem and the headspace problem as well. They asked to measure the distance from the face of the bolt extension to the flat barrel , it should be 0.500" exactly. SRC suspects that the distance could be .480" or so.. That .020" would be enough to prohibit the bolt from engaging and cause the damage to the barrel. That's a crazy question to ask. If your end spacing was -.020" under spec the bolt could not lock up at all, there would be no room for the bolt lugs to cam into extension lugs. IIRC that would make a .009-.011" interference. Obviously it would not go into battery with a bolt. Quoted:
I wonder if the LMT Enhanced Carrier may have compatibility issues when used with the Relia-bolt? I wondered this because the LMT Enhanced Carrier is stopped when it contacts with the barrel extension lugs; where your standard "milspec" carrier is stopped when it contacts the outer edge of the barrel extension. Well the carrier face bottoming out on the extension face only limits the depth the bolt is pushed back into the cam slot. It's good to see then extension and the carrier radius is showing contact, that seems to indicate it's limiting the travel so the cam pin doesn't bottom out in the cam slot. The only thing that prevents the bolt face from bottoming out on the barrel face is the cartridge. It is completely normal for the bolt face to contact the barrel face when the bolt is dropped on an empty chamber. I can't remember all the details of the LMT enhanced carrier, they either messed with the angle of the cam slot or the location of the gas ports. If you have a barrel out of an upper take a bolt carrier group and manually insert it into the barrel extension while holding the orientation of the carrier, you'll see how everything works real quick. |
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Posted: 2/27/2015 10:44:09 AM EDT
[#29]
No reply. No customer support. No more deals with SRC.
Sorry guys but I left this thread as I have nothing to add. Draw your own conclusions. |
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Posted: 2/27/2015 11:38:19 AM EDT
[#30]
That sucks dude... I'd be a pain in their ass every day until they answered me...especially if their product ruined other parts of my rifle...Yeah I know the barrel is probably ok, but I be damned if I'd just"live" with a jacked up barrel.
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Posted: 2/27/2015 3:26:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No reply. No customer support. No more deals with SRC. Sorry guys but I left this thread as I have nothing to add. Draw your own conclusions. Did you call them and ask to speak with the president of the company as I suggested? |
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Posted: 2/27/2015 7:26:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No reply. No customer support. No more deals with SRC. Sorry guys but I left this thread as I have nothing to add. Draw your own conclusions. Well that pretty much seals it for me. I was planning on buying 2 of them but if they have not responded in this much time I would have to say no chance in hell. If there is one thing I dont tolerate is a company that doesnt take care of their customers. Hope your gun is ok and thank you for bringing this to light. |
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Posted: 2/27/2015 9:45:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you call them and ask to speak with the president of the company as I suggested? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No reply. No customer support. No more deals with SRC. Sorry guys but I left this thread as I have nothing to add. Draw your own conclusions. Did you call them and ask to speak with the president of the company as I suggested? I agree...if you believe their product caused damage to your rifle, why wouldn't you pick up the phone and call them? |
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