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Posted: 1/13/2017 2:16:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Legal questions deserve lawyers.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 2:18:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Sorry you fell into the GCA '68 trap. If there's a shop around town that has their manufacturing SOT, you could pay your FFL to ship the lower you paid for to the other shop, and pay the manufacturing SOT to build your AR into a rifle - then fill out the 4473 and wait for NICS.
Or you could write off your lower as a loss, @ least until you turn 21, and order an 80% lower online - mill it out and build yourself a pistol, then turn it into a rifle. It's perfectly legal for you to build a pistol - just not to buy one. Thanks LBJ. Or you could order a mold from AR15mold.com and pour yourself a lower. Do you weld? |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 2:19:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Legal questions deserve lawyers. Not when they're this stupid simple. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 2:25:54 PM EDT
[#4]
I think I'm going to try to have it shipped to the location with the manufacturing license as long as it will be legal for me to pick it up from there once it is built. I just don't want to ship it back to the dealer because there is a $50 for paperwork and 20% for restocking. So that's almost as much as the damn thing costs! But to answer your last question yes I can weld I just do not have the best equipment
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Posted: 1/13/2017 2:31:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Your options are wait, go 80% or do something illegal. I completely advise against option number 3 for obvious reasons. 80% is a little more costly but gets you a legal way of getting as many lowers as you want that are non-transferable. Use your head and don't do anything shady because 'the man' will find out and it will be bad.
Research, research, research. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 2:47:34 PM EDT
[#6]
I am a lawyer and prosecutor, so maybe this will carry a bit more weight.
It is NOT illegal for you to purchase or possess a rifle OR a pistol under federal law. It is illegal, however, for an FFL holder to sell you a pistol until you are 21. Your STATE laws may catch you here, but in most states, at least states whose electoral college votes went to the right candidate, it is not illegal for a person under 21 to possess a rifle OR pistol. So this is all federal law horseshit. There is NOTHING to prohibit your mother or father, for example, from purchasing the lower themselves. So long as they are not purchasing it "for you," what they decide to do with it after they get it is their business. Whoever ends up buying your upper, in order to sell it or gift it later should that be their decision, may generally only do so if the receiving person lives in their own state. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:04:14 PM EDT
[#7]
I could have done that before I messed up and went ahead and filled out the 4473 they did not tell me that I had to be 21 until after I had filled out the paperwork. So they will not even let my parents fill out the paperwork now. Are there there any legal loop holes now that you know of for my situation?
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:04:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am a lawyer and prosecutor, so maybe this will carry a bit more weight.
It is NOT illegal for you to purchase or possess a rifle OR a pistol under federal law. It is illegal, however, for an FFL holder to sell you a pistol until you are 21. Your STATE laws may catch you here, but in most states, at least states whose electoral college votes went to the right candidate, it is not illegal for a person under 21 to possess a rifle OR pistol. So this is all federal law horseshit. There is NOTHING to prohibit your mother or father, for example, from purchasing the lower themselves. So long as they are not purchasing it "for you," what they decide to do with it after they get it is their business. Whoever ends up buying your Quote HistoryQuoted: I am a lawyer and prosecutor, so maybe this will carry a bit more weight.
It is NOT illegal for you to purchase or possess a rifle OR a pistol under federal law. It is illegal, however, for an FFL holder to sell you a pistol until you are 21. Your STATE laws may catch you here, but in most states, at least states whose electoral college votes went to the right candidate, it is not illegal for a person under 21 to possess a rifle OR pistol. So this is all federal law horseshit. There is NOTHING to prohibit your mother or father, for example, from purchasing the lower themselves. So long as they are not purchasing it "for you," what they decide to do with it after they get it is their business. Whoever ends up buying your FIFY. You were carrying so much weight, too. 
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1954169_My-NY-legal-AR---pics.html&page=3&anc=bottom#i64104654 Quoted: Funny story about that...the idiots who wrote the unSAFE act banned (in addition to the already banned flash hiders) muzzle compensators and muzzle BREAKS. They misspelled it in the law.
So one judge tossed it out, saying the law makers should have known better...but then the 2nd circus court of appeals in NY said "nope sorry, we all know what the law makers meant by BREAK, so even though they misspelled it, they are still banned." So apparently words don't mean anything. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:04:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Why can't you just check rifle on B-18 of the 4473.
The FFL has no legal standing to try and interpret your intentions. If you say that it's a rifle, then who are they to question you? You could turn any AR into a pistol if you wanted. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:08:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could have done that before I messed up and went ahead and filled out the 4473 they did not tell me that I had to be 21 until after I had filled out the paperwork. So they will not even let my parents fill out the paperwork now. Are there there any legal loop holes now that you know of for my situation? There are no loopholes - only what is legal. Your dealer is reasonably protecting themselves from facilitating a straw purchase. If the fees are worth it, I'd pay them to ship it to the manufacturing FFL, and pay those guys to put it together for you. Another option would be to take the restocking fees on the upper & lower parts, and just go buy a $500 DPMS @ Academy. If you'll post up what part of Texas you're in, some of us might be able to recommend a manufacturing FFL that would work w/ you. And if you weld, follow the link. That'll probably be your cheapest option, albeit the heaviest. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:10:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why can't you just check rifle on B-18 of the 4473.
The FFL has no legal standing to try and interpret your intentions. If you say that it's a rifle, then who are they to question you? You could turn any AR into a pistol if you wanted. B/c both courses of actions you propose are illegal. 
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:18:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
B/c both courses of actions you propose are illegal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Why can't you just check rifle on B-18 of the 4473.
The FFL has no legal standing to try and interpret your intentions. If you say that it's a rifle, then who are they to question you? You could turn any AR into a pistol if you wanted. B/c both courses of actions you propose are illegal. How so? Does it mean that anyone that checks rifle on the 4473 when they purchase a lower is committing an illegal act? I don't hardly think so. And my last comment about anyone converting a rifle was meant as an example of what the FFL knows at the time. If they sell a complete rifle, they have no knowledge of what that person may do with it in the future. I can't be denied purchase of a rifle is the FFL comes up with some hairbrained idea that I could swap uppers on it and turn it into something else. It's a ridiculous conclusion and you couldn't sell any rifles with that conclusion.. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:30:20 PM EDT
[#13]
The FFL dealer I'm working with is a relatively new company with realatively younger guys, they aren't going to go for that and risk having their license revoked.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:31:49 PM EDT
[#14]
And I'm in central Texas in between the Austin and San Antonio areas
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:37:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How so? Does it mean that anyone that checks rifle on the 4473 when they purchase a lower is committing an illegal act? I don't hardly think so. And my last comment about anyone converting a rifle was meant as an example of what the FFL knows at the time. If they sell a complete rifle, they have no knowledge of what that person may do with it in the future. I can't be denied purchase of a rifle is the FFL comes up with some hairbrained idea that I could swap uppers on it and turn it into something else. It's a ridiculous conclusion and you couldn't sell any rifles with that conclusion.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Why can't you just check rifle on B-18 of the 4473.
The FFL has no legal standing to try and interpret your intentions. If you say that it's a rifle, then who are they to question you? You could turn any AR into a pistol if you wanted. B/c both courses of actions you propose are illegal. How so? Does it mean that anyone that checks rifle on the 4473 when they purchase a lower is committing an illegal act? I don't hardly think so. And my last comment about anyone converting a rifle was meant as an example of what the FFL knows at the time. If they sell a complete rifle, they have no knowledge of what that person may do with it in the future. I can't be denied purchase of a rifle is the FFL comes up with some hairbrained idea that I could swap uppers on it and turn it into something else. It's a ridiculous conclusion and you couldn't sell any rifles with that conclusion.. 1st, the dealer is the one that has to fill out that portion of the 4473. It is a condition of their license that they must fill out the 4473 correctly. For them to check "rifle" when they are actually selling a lower is against BATFE regulations, who has been given the power by Congress to implement GCA '68 & the Brady Act, as amended. So, to check rifle when they're selling a lower is illegal. FFLs can only sell complete rifles or shotguns to persons under 21 - they are not permitted to sell lowers or pistols to persons under 21. Turning an AR rifle into a pistol when it shipped as a rifle from the manufacturer is also illegal. Building a pistol from a new lower is not. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:37:23 PM EDT
[#16]
If you ship it to a FFL that can "assemble" it, doesn't them just putting the buffer tube and a butt stock on make it always a rifle?
Then you assemble the rest yourself. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:49:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Well like I said I have all of the other parts and I have already assembled the upper, so might as well just have them slap it on also, it will take them 10 seconds to put the pins in. The only problem I am having is convincing the FFL store that it is legal to ship the lower to the manufacturing licensed location for me. Do y'all know of any legal documents restricting this?
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:54:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How so? Does it mean that anyone that checks rifle on the 4473 when they purchase a lower is committing an illegal act? I don't hardly think so. And my last comment about anyone converting a rifle was meant as an example of what the FFL knows at the time. If they sell a complete rifle, they have no knowledge of what that person may do with it in the future. I can't be denied purchase of a rifle is the FFL comes up with some hairbrained idea that I could swap uppers on it and turn it into something else. It's a ridiculous conclusion and you couldn't sell any rifles with that conclusion.. I am a FFL 7/SOT and it is illegal to sell a stripped lower as a rifle, it is marked other on form 4473. We just went through this exact same conversation the other day in one of the other forums, as long as it is a face to face purchase, that is the only legal way for a person under the age of 21 to purchase a stripped lower. FFL's cannot sell a stripped lower or a pistol to a person under the age of 21, but as I said, FTF sales are legal, subject to local laws and regulations. Converting a fully assembled gun after the fact has nothing to do with this particular topic. My suggestion to anyone under the age of 21 that wants an AR, you need to look at purchasing a fully assembled rifle, which will be marked rifle on the 4473 or you need to seek out a legal FTF sale, and last but not least look at the 80% route until such time as you are over the age of 21 and even some dealers will not sell and 80% to someone under the age of 21. The discretion of sale is always up to the FFL dealer, this is one of those contradictory rules/laws that makes it very confusing for the public at large, but the dealer not only has the right to refuse if he is not comfortable, he has the obligation to refuse sale. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:56:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Not for nothing but making a new, sketchy username probably wasn't the right way to go about this...
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Posted: 1/13/2017 3:58:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you ship it to a FFL that can "assemble" it, doesn't them just putting the buffer tube and a butt stock on make it always a rifle?
Then you assemble the rest yourself. No. It's not a rifle until the bbl'd upper is installed, AND the buttstock. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:00:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well like I said I have all of the other parts and I have already assembled the upper, so might as well just have them slap it on also, it will take them 10 seconds to put the pins in. The only problem I am having is convincing the FFL store that it is legal to ship the lower to the manufacturing licensed location for me. Do y'all know of any legal documents restricting this? It's legal for them to ship it to another FFL; it may not be worth their time. You may be better off ordering one of those $40 Anderson lowers & have it shipped to the Manufacturing SOT - if they don't have any reasonably priced lowers in stock. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:01:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Thanks to both DaveP1 and backbencher. I was not aware of the restrictions on selling a lower to someone under 21.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:03:44 PM EDT
[#23]
You could sale this lower to someone else. They could then pick it up and use it how ever they wish. Sale at a good price just to end this situation and chalk it up to lesson learned. And then you could do the 80 percent thing or just buy a complete rifle.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:06:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks to both DaveP1 and backbencher. I was not aware of the restrictions on selling a lower to someone under 21. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/676733_Fruity-Ghost---DIY-100s-of-ARs-cheaper--faster--gentler-.html Would solve OP's issues, but probably cost him more than a 2nd cheap lower delivered to the right FFL. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:10:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your options are wait, go 80% or do something illegal. I completely advise against option number 3 for obvious reasons. 80% is a little more costly but gets you a legal way of getting as many lowers as you want that are non-transferable. Use your head and don't do anything shady because 'the man' will find out and it will be bad. Research, research, research. You need to read more and post less. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:19:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Non-tech comments removed - Eric802
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:25:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am a lawyer and prosecutor, so maybe this will carry a bit more weight. It is NOT illegal for you to purchase or possess a rifle OR a pistol under federal law. It is illegal, however, for an FFL holder to sell you a pistol until you are 21. Your STATE laws may catch you here, but in most states, at least states whose electoral college votes went to the right candidate, it is not illegal for a person under 21 to possess a rifle OR pistol. So this is all federal law horseshit. There is NOTHING to prohibit your mother or father, for example, from purchasing the lower themselves. So long as they are not purchasing it "for you," what they decide to do with it after they get it is their business. Whoever ends up buying your upper, in order to sell it or gift it later should that be their decision, may generally only do so if the receiving person lives in their own state. OP, I'm not a lawyer, but I was younger than 21 once with similar questions. My dad bought a couple guns and turns out he gave them to me later. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:35:40 PM EDT
[#28]
" or you need to seek out a legal FTF sale"
This. hopefully, you didn't spend too much on THAT lower, and just consider it the cost of an education. But to the above quote: our state has a couple of bulletin boards where people buy and sell stuff all the time. Lowers come available for FTF sale all the time. I'd bet that Texas does, too. Buy one and move on. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:53:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, I'm not a lawyer, but I was younger than 21 once with similar questions. My dad bought a couple guns and turns out he gave them to me later. It is perfectly legal to do what you're Dad did, I received my first gun from my father when I was around 11 or 12, as long as BATF does not determine that you're intent was illegal it is perfectly legal to gift a gun to friends and relatives. On this particular situation, I would simply ask the FFL if they would be willing to purchase it, they can legally pay you for the item they are not able to transfer to you, at least you would recover some of you're money. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:54:29 PM EDT
[#30]
I had to get an "intent to purchase" pistol permit or a CWP before anyone would sell be a stripped lower. And to get one of those you have to be over 21... so they sealed that up nicely in Iowa.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:56:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Buy one FTF
Legal transfer for 18 in most states |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 4:56:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why can't you just check rifle on B-18 of the 4473. The FFL has no legal standing to try and interpret your intentions. If you say that it's a rifle, then who are they to question you? You could turn any AR into a pistol if you wanted. Because it's an "Other" and he shouldn't be checking a damn thing on the 4473 past his signature |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 5:02:51 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because it's an "Other" and he shouldn't be checking a damn thing on the 4473 past his signature I've only bought 3 lowers, but each time, the FFL asked me which block I wanted him to check. Good grief, give it a rest. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 5:04:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've only bought 3 lowers, but each time, the FFL asked me which block I wanted him to check. Good grief, give it a rest. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because it's an "Other" and he shouldn't be checking a damn thing on the 4473 past his signature I've only bought 3 lowers, but each time, the FFL asked me which block I wanted him to check. Good grief, give it a rest. Then your FFL is fucking stupid |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 5:17:47 PM EDT
[#35]
From what I understand now, it will be legal to ship it to another FFL licensed manufacturing place. I have contacted both and the only thing is that they are the main competitors of the guys who I shipped it to. So they aren't wanting to ship it to them out of just being stubborn
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Posted: 1/13/2017 5:54:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Hilarious.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 6:01:02 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm in Irving. IM sent.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 6:01:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand now, it will be legal to ship it to another FFL licensed manufacturing place. I have contacted both and the only thing is that they are the main competitors of the guys who I shipped it to. So they aren't wanting to ship it to them out of just being stubborn Will the original FFL build it as a rifle for you then? If their "main competitors" do something they do not they are not losing anything by passing it off to them. I would remember this for future FFL needs, that is pretty petty IMO. Kind of related note... I wonder how built it has to be to be considered a rifle, just a stock or 100% finished. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 6:42:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will the original FFL build it as a rifle for you then? If their "main competitors" do something they do not they are not losing anything by passing it off to them. I would remember this for future FFL needs, that is pretty petty IMO. Kind of related note... I wonder how built it has to be to be considered a rifle, just a stock or 100% finished. Normally it is considered an "other firearm" up until the time that all operational parts are installed in and on it. The upper really does not have anything to do with it as the upper is a non-regulated part, barrels are not regulated, BCG's are not regulated. The lower can be stamped as an SBR, it can be built as a pistol or it can be built as a rifle, but you have to be careful how you build it the first time. Unless you are requesting and getting a stamp, they will not know what you build it as, because there is no regulation on actually registering a rifle or a pistol Federally. If you apply for a stamp, then it will be in the Federal records that the lower has a tax stamp associated with it as a SBR. It will remain as "Other" unless your state requires registration or you apply for a stamp as an SBR |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 8:42:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand now, it will be legal to ship it to another FFL licensed manufacturing place. I have contacted both and the only thing is that they are the main competitors of the guys who I shipped it to. So they aren't wanting to ship it to them out of just being stubborn If they're not wanting to transfer it where you want it sent then they can buy it from you. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 8:52:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Have a family member buy it. Then wait a few weeks and buy it from them.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 9:06:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Sounds like the expense of shipping it back or to someone who can assemble it for you would be more expensive and a hassle to boot.
If your parents or relative can buy a new lower they can then gift it to you. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 9:57:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have a family member buy it. Then wait a few weeks and buy it from them. This will work. Face to face transfer between 2 people 18 and up is fine. Hell when I was 19 I owned a pistol and went to the police station go talk to them about the legality of me transporting it from place to place and I had no issues. We had a talk about this resently in the Texas home town thread and it basically ended like this. |
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Posted: 1/13/2017 10:14:19 PM EDT
[#44]
So the shop won't sell it to you (justifiably so), won't ship it to a manufacturer, and won't sell it to a family member or take it back without a restocking fee? They sound like a bunch of crooked MFers to me.
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Posted: 1/13/2017 10:17:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This will work. Face to face transfer between 2 people 18 and up is fine. Hell when I was 19 I owned a pistol and went to the police station go talk to them about the legality of me transporting it from place to place and I had no issues. We had a talk about this resently in the Texas home town thread and it basically ended like this. Buying a firearm with the intent of immediately reselling it compared to buying as a gift should not be confused as being one and the same. |
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Posted: 1/14/2017 3:58:15 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the shop won't sell it to you (justifiably so), won't ship it to a manufacturer, and won't sell it to a family member or take it back without a restocking fee? They sound like a bunch of crooked MFers to me. They sound like they're justifiably concerned about preventing a straw purchase. They shouldn't sell it to one of OP's known family members, as that would enable a straw purchase. If OP requests, they'll ship it back to wherever OP bought it from, and OP will owe that restocking fee, +shipping & handling on the part of the FFL that ships it. They should ship it to the cross-town manufacturer, but OP's $15 transfer fee doesn't really cover shipping guns they receive to a cross-town competitor. |
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Posted: 1/14/2017 4:07:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Will the original FFL build it as a rifle for you then?
If their "main competitors" do something they do not they are not losing anything by passing it off to them. I would remember this for future FFL needs, that is pretty petty IMO. Kind of related note... I wonder how built it has to be to be considered a rifle, just a stock or 100% finished. Nope - ordinary FFL's can't assemble firearms. Need a manufacturing SOT. Thanks LBJ. A stock attached doesn't make a lower a rifle. It has to have a stock & a rifled bbl. |
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Posted: 1/14/2017 4:08:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have a family member buy it. Then wait a few weeks and buy it from them. That would be a straw purchase, which OP's FFL is not going to permit. |
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Posted: 1/14/2017 9:13:43 PM EDT
[#49]
A parent would be the best option.
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Posted: 1/14/2017 9:30:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A parent would be the best option. A parent of not, does not change the straw purchase statutes... |
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