Can we start a thread discussing features and benefits of different IR set ups?(With Pics)
PEQ2A
VITAL
PAQ4
ETC...

I have a PEQ2A, but I know nothing of the other systems, and their advantages.

Originally Posted By wes1: Can we start a thread discussing features and benefits of different IR set ups?(With Pics) PEQ2A VITAL PAQ4 ETC... I have a PEQ2A, but I know nothing of the other systems, and their advantages.

Hi ya Wes....Good thread, I will have more to follow. I am sure guys like Duffy and a few others will show off their IR configurations as well!

Vic

Originally Posted By wes1: Hey Vic, Are you still coming out to the Ranch?

Email coming out your way!

Nice thread which will bring LOTS of discussions and questions. First let me start off to clear some initial IR laser questions. ALL Class 3 lasers are restricted for new sale for public consumption via the FDA. The units discussed here are indeed Class 3 lasers and are restricted new sale items and are only sold to government agencies. In fact, the latest news I am hearing is no more new sales even to the LE circles! Insight will not even drop ship any longer to LE Dept’s and NVEC's policy is ONLY to .gov as well! There is no current law that I know of that states they are illegal to own, only new sale restrictions from the manufactures. As always, please check with your local laws before purchasing any IR laser equipment.

I have worked personally over the years with the following,

PEQ-2A (Insight Technologies) www.insightlights.com/federal/default.asp Not much info given at all on their units due to the restrictions. PAQ-4, and the Laser Aiming Module LAM (Insight Technologies)

Vital-2, (Night Vision Equipment Company) www.nvec-night-vision.com/products/details_R.asp?Msg=20&System=VITAL&Category=5

Ground Commanders Pointer GCP-2 (Night Vision Equipment Company) www.nvec-night-vision.com/products/details_R.asp?Msg=20&System=GCP-2&Category=5


MOLAD, OTALS, DBALS. and ITALS. www.laserdevices.com/infopage.asp?a=laser_rifle&id=19101&action=deviceresults.asp
Some units I have NOT worked with BUT would love to!!!

Atilla, (Night Vision Equipment Company) www.nvec-night-vision.com/products/details_R.asp?Msg=20&System=ATILLA&Category=5


Without going into exact details on each of the units performance data, here are a few links that talk all about the PEQ-2A’s and a host of other laser and NVD’s, as well as SAFETY ISSUES ALL SHOULD BE VERY AWARE OF BEFORE THEY USE ANY IR LASER!
www.nightline-inc.com/nightline/specialtech.htm
www.2ndbn5thmar.com/BookOne/zero-toc.html

This link is a VERY good perspective on a Warrant Officers view of several IR laser systems.
www.nightoperations.com/coyotelaser.htm

Based on what your mission dictates, everyone’s needs will be different and each of the units talked about above vary in range and power. After reading the above links that talk about each unit’s power and ranges, I will give you my likes and dislikes I have found over the years. This will be based on surveillance activities and a few “yote” killings! I’m sure Kevin and a few others can probably chime in here on the direct military apps. Wes1 has also killed some yotes, so I hope he can speak what he likes about his PEQ.

PEQ-2A is a dual laser/illuminator that is way too powerful for my range needs. I’ve used this unit in conjunction with 6X raptors and have lased large targets at 3000m! I have found working with this unit under 100m or less to be overpowering with my PVS-14’s on bright targets, such as large structures, windows, etc. The laser scatters quite a bit and blooms my Gen III NVD’s. Now with Gen II units or less, maybe this high power would be beneficial? Maybe some folk here with these Gen II or less units can comment. Also, I've never lit up a yote as yet with a PEQ, so I look forward to Wes's comments on lighting up these scrawny no good...

In regards to the subject of durability, I find the PEQ line to be the worst for durability. A funny story was several years ago when I first was inquiring about PEQ’s…I saw several pics of our troops employing PEQ’s with duct tape holding the units on. I kept thinking to myself, “why aren’t these guys talking with Dick (ARMS,) for some rails?" I remember at that time Wes from MSTN corrected me and told me, “Vic, the duct tape you are seeing is there to hold the actual unit together!” <Gulp> In LE use, the constant banging into structures, bad guys heads, etc. could deem uneventful for the durability concerns. I personally have not broke one, but others have.

In regards of actual operation of the individual illuminator and laser, I find the unit very easy to work with and for long range targets its hard to beat, well not vs. the Atilla I’m told. I have never worked with NVEC’s Atilla, but I’m told from MANY end-users that the Atilla is MUCH more durable and capable. Also it’s virtually impossible to obtain. I like the PEQ’s versatility to be used weapon mountable, as well as a hand-held pointer/illuminator as well due to a supplied tape switch and push button constant on feature. It also has an adjustable illuminator for a pin point beam or flood.

Vital-2 is a single beam IR laser with a built in CQB illuminator that round out this unit. I have worked with this unit for a bit of time now and for my use, I find it’s the best unit I’ve used. Its VERY durable, light-weight, throw-lever weapon mountable, has off axis light security, pulse modes and a VERY good CQB illuminator for 50 meter in work. **Changed to effective range of 20 meters, not seen range***I’ve engaged man-size targets at 500M+ while using this unit with a Raptor 6X on a 6.8SPC as well as 100m and in work with NO blooming effects at all. The unit has a nifty variable intensity dial that works very well for varying output power. The Vital also comes standard with a paddle activation switch, as well as a tape switch which brings me to the feature I do not like that is typical with all NVEC’s IR products. The IR units do NOT incorporate a constant on feature. ALL units I’ve worked with either need the paddle or tape switch to operate for momentary on work. Maybe safety issues and tactical reasons come into play here. It’s difficult to use the Vital as a hand held unit due to this feature, especially if you are holding an NVD monoculure without a helmet mount. I’ve used the tape switch while actually holding the unit, in one hand, while holding my PVS-14 in another, but it’s cumbersome to say the least.

Ground Commanders Pointer GCP-2 is just what it says, an IR pointer that works EXTREMELY well! It’s an incredible IR light saber in the air
At 100mW the beam keeps going and going and going….out to 10km! I’ve used the GCP-1B on numerous occasions to point out objects, targets, etc. The model I’ve worked with was not weapon mountable and like the other NVEC products does not have a constant on, it has a small red push button to engage the laser. It also has an adjustable beam as well for pin point focus or a 6 deg wide beam.

Well, I hope this helps with what I have used thus far. Some pics are associated with the links and I have included a few with a vital-2, PVS-14 Delta, EO Tech, LR IR Illuminator and a SF 900 round out the platform.





Due to Wes1 and the gangs call out, we learned from years ago the effect useful range of the Vital-2 illuminator is 20m, seen range up to 50m max. Learning has occurred with this IR laser and from a few other folks over the years.

Originally Posted By v188: I think this could be a great thread. I'm in the process of shopping for a decent IR laser. I've found several places on-line, but am curious, do any of the dealers here sell (or point me to the right place) that would sell, a Vital 2 to a LEO? Victor, Buck, or Wes, if you have any ideas, please feel free to email me directly. I'll keep watching for the knowledge hopefully to be gained in this rhread.

I can help you with a Laser Devices IR if you are a LEO.


C4

www.gandrtactical.com

Well it's my turn, let me first say I am new to night vision and the world of IR Illuminators and lasers.So please forgive me , but please correct me if I am wrong.My experience(limited) is with the PEQ2A, Surefire M1,Surefire IR filters, Vic's own illuminator and the knock off DBAL(friends)

PEQ2A
I can attest to Vic's comments about the PEQ2A being delicate.My own unit (recieved on trade)had damage to the elevation adjuster on the aimer.Thru contact's on AR15.com(Mr.h)I found a gentlemen to fix it.Lanny Leonard replaced the adjuster and now I can zero my laser.
The PEQ2A is very powerful, even on it's lowest settings, it still blooms out.As for the Illuminator, I find it too powerful to be useful for non magnified NV.The illuminator works great without the filter, when using the PVS 14 in tandem with a maginifer optic/scope.As for using a the IR laser to hit coyotes, it's damn tuff!Coyotes generally don't stop and sit around when called.It's very HARD and FRUSTRATING to have a coyote come in( a feet it's self) then trying to paint it's little ass to shoot.I have missed many, and hit a few.I have started using a Illuminator while lasing to cut down on the blooming effect.( the bloom cover's most of a coyote's body)

Hong Kong DBAL
My buddy bought a knockoff DBAL laser.It's a dual band laser, one is a red visable, the other is IR.It's neat little unit with it's fake ARMS mount.The IR laser works well, no blooming. The biggest draw back is the adjusters are friction type, they will move on their own.(we used electrical tape to keep them in place)

Surefire M1 Illuminator
It's half the size of the 6P/G2, and runs on CR134 battery.
This is a must have for the NV user.I keep my around my neck and use it for navigation.It puts out
a pefect circle about 8yards in diameter.It's good for 100 yards and under.

Surefire IR filters
I have come to believe these are hit or miss.I have had good luck using a IR filter on my M951 with the 120 lumen bulb.It's great for a wide field of illumination under 100 yards.My buddy has gone thru 2 different filters on the same set up as mine with no luck.Less than 25 yards of illumination.He has since gone to Vic's illuminator.

Vic's Illumintor
It's slightly larger than the size of a 6P.It's uses a single CR134 battery, and has a weapon mount.It works well out to 300 yards.We use it for illumination of targets while using scopes in tandem with monoculars.It also works great for sweeping wheat fields looking for eyes.This is another must have for a NV user.

Very informative, thank you gents! Unhappily, other than pics I have little to contritube, because I can't hunt coyotes around here (neighbors would yell bloody murder), I'm not in the armed forces or an LEO, my actual experience is limited to me messing around with mine, lasing either the houses 200yds in front of mine or the ocean 500yds out, and even then I have to be careful not to be seen holding a weapon standing in the patio lol.

I agree with Vic's assessment of the VITAL2. The lack of a constant on switch can be a pain. Additionally, I have another observation but I'm not sure if it's valid. I mount my VITAL2 on the top rail of an MRP upper where there's plenty of rails, and use the paddle for activation. The PAQ4C is on the right side of a KAC FF RAS MRE equipped rifle because there's not enough upper rail estate for it, and there I have to use the much too long remote switch (I won't call it tape, because it's sqaure with a little round button in the middle). The position of the paddle release on both the PAQ4C and VITAL2 is on the rear left side, where unless they're mounted on top, you're forced to use the remote switch, as it's quite impossible to use the paddle switch with either IR laser mounted on the left or right. In the case with the PAQ4C, as the rail cover will get in the way of the paddle switch, so you have to make sure there's no rail cover where the paddle will go. That's so with a KAC RAS anyway, with a DD handguard that's thinner that may not be a problem.

The VITAL2 comes standard with an excellent ARMS throw lever mount, and as stated elsewhere in another thread, the PAQ4C's issued Rail Grabber kind of sucks. The threads for the mounting screw are on the mount itself, it has a little capped nut that's all but impossible to tighten on the mounting screw because the opening is too small for a socket to go in and secure in place while turning the screw.

Minor rants, I'll do some visual and not very scientific comparison of the respective laser strength later tonight

Thanks Wes1, looks like your remote switch is also too long
Let's hope the wire doesn't melt when the barrel is red hot, because that's where the tied up strand of wire of mine is too, tucked away between the rail cover and the top rails

I'm used to firing my HK21 from the shoulder, compared to 18lbs (empty, no belts), my AR15 with all the attachments feel like a light weight carbine

Originally Posted By inkaybee: I am not a "do it on the cheap" kinda guy. I have 3K plus rolled up in one AR and I have 3k plus in my night vision --- BUT my IR lsaer cost about $200. I have a corsak. It is lite, small, and rugged. It also has adjustable intensity and a constant on button that can be pushed part way for momentary use. It is kinda crude and a pain in the ass to zero. But it works and works and works. It's not the cat's ass but it is a work horse.

You know what Ink? IT WORKS, pricing is secondary..And it works!

Inkaybee,
Can you post pics of your Corsak set up?

Originally Posted By wes1: Inkaybee, Can you post pics of your Corsak set up?

I'll try. I suck at computer stuff.
I have a digital camera but I don't know if I still have the software and driver. It'll take me the weekend to figure it out if I even can.

Elmer fud. If you have a NV compatable Aimpoint or Eothech you can zero your red dot in the day light then try to get the corsak to line up with the dot at night.

Originally Posted By inkaybee: Does somebody want to post them for me if I email them?

Check your IM