In a 2 point config.  

For the longest time I've not had slings on my AR's....  I do see the wisdom in having it for retention in case of a Home invasion and I'm not a very big and strong guy.  So I would think it strapped to my body would be a good thing....

But man I just don't like them.  When I go to do reloads, it's always in the way.  If I put just over my neck it's like right in the way of the magwell and I have to move it out the way.  It's a bit better if  I run it under the left arm, but still kind of....  blaaaaaa.  If I run it too tight I can't let the gun drop down enough to do the reload and then when I find that sweet spot for movement, it's practically right in the way of the magwell when doing a reload.  

Is this why people go to a single point?  

I use a 2 point sling on my 10.5" pistol. Reloading from belt mounted carriers or loose mags from my pocket is no problem. I haven't tried it with a chest rig or vest. I could see that being more difficult.

It's you.
I have no problems w/reloads from a chest rig or belt setup (2-point sling).

Tomac

Only annoyance I've ran into is the sling sliding over the straps of chest rigs when I'm dropping the stock down under my arm to brace it for a reload.  Switching to a VTAC bungee sling seems to have done the trick.  

Where do you have the 2 points attached to on the rifle?

What sling do you have?  Maybe it's my sling....  I've been trying out my silent sling with some paracord to extend the length.

I have a loop of paracord on the normal sling swivel and I have another loop through the waffle stock on the back.  And the sling is just a silent sling.  It seems like the length is good.  It just seems to get in the way a bit.

Get the sling out from under your left arm, loosen it up a bit and drape it around your neck like a necklace.

And no. People switch from two point to one point because they don't know how to properly use a two point...

Try looping around your A2 front sight.  That gets the sling running along side of the rifle instead of under it.  I run mine under my left arm as you can also get a good hasty sling rest shooting standing or kneeling if you have it set up correctly.

I had similar problems with two-points attached at the muzzle end of my handguard, that became quickly apparent during a carbine class. Moved it to the receiver end of the handguard and I no longer have any problems. It's completely out of the way of my hands and mag well, and doesn't bind up when under my left arm. I lose the benefit of it being used as an impromptu shooting support as a result, but the likelihood of me really needing to use the front end of a Vickers sling as a shooter's loop is pretty low.

Oooo, these are some good suggestions to try.  

MP0117, I tried it around the neck and that seems even worse.  When I did it at the length I had it, it totally covered up the magwell.  LOL.  Might need to be a different length.


I think I'll try that suggestion about putting it back towards the receiver.  That makes sense.  I saw Defoor talk about that I think it was.   I can also try the FSB attachment.   That makes sense too.   Thanks guys.

One other thing to note based on the picture.  It looks like you are doing a mag change with the muzzle pointed up, which will make the sling go slack and fall along the magwell and could be adding to your problem.

Try to keep the muzzle down range or pointed slightly at the ground (not at your feet) and more or less on target and rotate the gun along the muzzle axis a little bit (you don't have to be all Chris Costa about it).  That will do too things.  1) Keep the sling more taut and out of the way, and 2) give you a very natural feed from your left hand into the mag well, and than onto the BHO paddle.   The other nice thing about this is less time to get back on target.

Full disclaimer, I'm just an everyday guy that likes to shoot and take classes.  I don't have any formal training and am not a high speed former SPECOPs guy, so it is only what works for me.

Mine is set up like I've seen most instructors have theirs setup.  QD connection on the opposite side of the buttstock from where my cheek rests, and the front point is a QD connection is as far back on the rail as it will allow.  I'm experimenting with with moving the rear connection to a QD end plate.  This works better until I go to run the charging handle.  

I'd keep moving it around and until you find what works for you.  I'd probably try a different sling as well.  A Blue Force Gear VCAS or a VTAC sling seem to be among the best 2 point slings.

I've noticed this connection point at the rear and I was trying figure a way to do it to my waffle stock.  But I think I'd need some kind of adapter.

I also just remembered I can't really attach it to my FSB.  Unless I move my light to the other side and I like it where it is.  I'm using the FSB rail.  I'm actually not overly sure how I'm going to attach it close to the receiver.  But I think I might be able to get some paracord tight enough around the delta ring.....

For the stock, loop it through the slot on the right side and either back over the top of the stock or back through the slot (this would require an extra triglide to lock it in place). For the front, use the paracord you already have and loop it around the delta ring - if you do it right, it will self-tighten when the sling is in use.

Sorry to stray off topic, but that's a NICE simple set up you have! Very clean! I've become a fan of those A2 FSB rail inserts as well.

If you're right handed, your flashlight is on the wrong side.

The m4 is supposed to use a side mount sling ferrule, same as any other "tactical" rifle.

The generic stock has the slot in the back under the buffer tube. Attach sling here.

Wear sling over right shoulder, and under left arm pit.

Hold rifle with support arm UNDER the sling for unsupported shooting. Tighten it up and make a hasty sling (loop sling variant) for slower, precision shots.

Works with belt, thigh, and chest mounted mags. If you need further assistance, let me know.

<<<< combat marksmanship coach, not an operator or anything, I just know what I'm doing.

ETA: what jblomen said is still correct.

Magpul MS1.
I've used it w/the rear portion of the sling attached at 3 different locations and no problems w/any of them.
Tomac

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When I reload, buttstock doesn't move and stays in the shoulder pocket.
Tomac

Different strokes for different folks.  I'm 6'5" with pretty long arms so anchoring the butt stock under my elbow feels better.  It also allows me to get the ejection port pointing downwards and puts the charging handle in an optimal place after I verify the mag is properly seated.  I don't train to used the bolt catch to send the bolt home on a reload.

IOBC 4-83. Doctrine was no sling. Riot training MP, no sling. Retaining your firearm in close quarters combat is done by shooting anybody who gets that close first. If they can get their hands on your weapon then they can use it to pull you off balance and that give them a tactical advantage.

Riot batons have lanyards but you never loop them over your wrist, it's wrapped around the back of your hand and the loop slipped over your thumb. If the baton is grabbed from you then it comes off the back of your hand and the loop falls off the thumb. And the DS asks you why you weren't employing the baton in a more vigorous manner. Same for the firearm.

Yes, I know the sling is meant to help, but it's an accessory that has both positives and negatives. In certain circumstances the sling is more one than another, other times it's reversed. We went to the field with no sling - and we weren't hampered with it in vehicles, didn't get it hung up on brush or limbs, and it woudn't  catch on our field gear. It was never there to drap the gun over our shoulder on long patrols disarming us, either. No sling.

For an MP detaining and searching people in the street - sling. It has to be retained somehow. Sniper - sling. No doubt. Combat infantry man who may need to get into using the weapon itself as a striking tool - no way is a sling what you need. HD? Slings catch on furniture, lamps, door knobs, they restrict your motion when you need to punch someone in the face with a hot flash suppressor and should they need a good butt stroke to the head it's easier no sling.

I have no sling on my hunting 6.8 AR and I don't use one on the AR pistol hunting either. There's enough problems stalking deer thru dense brush as it is, and the last thing I want is it slung over my shoulder 50 meters from the parking lot where I have found and flagged deer laying up in the morning dew on opening morning. Repeatedly.

Slings are a nice range accessory to improved precision. Not always a good idea in every situation.

I'm totally with you.  When I hunted deer I never had a sling because I couldn't stand them.  I did a lot of pushing through thick stuff.  I was the youngest in my family and I got driving duty a LOT.  Learned how to still hunt and stalk and still push at the same time.  Zig zagging, not walking a straight line.  Etc.....   Anyways.... different subject.  But the only time I wanted a sling was when we were dragging a deer out.  And typically someone else carried my gun if I was doing the dragging.  

My only reason for changing philosophy in HD is because I'm 5'8" and 140 pounds.  On a slow recovery from lyme disease.  Went from 170 to 114 now back up to 140.  I'm not as strong as I used to and I figure odds are against me being the stronger person in a home invasion.  So a sling would help retain my gun if over my shoulder and a guy jumped me at close range around a corner or something.

However, my plan of a home invasion is to get my kids and wife into the one bed room where there is only one door and get them out the window while I cover. Calling 911 early on of course, if I can.  I'm not really planning on clearing my house if I knew somebody was robbing me.  Unless I felt stupid enough after I got my kids and wife out the window.   But even then I should probably stay with them while we go to the neighbors because who knows who is creeping around outside.  This seemed like a sound plan.  

So anyways....   I feel like the sling might be a good idea in my case, even though I don't really like them and totally agree with you on these points.

There's obviously different ways to do a lot of this.  And I feel like I kind of need to do the drop the buttstock thing down because my fricking M4gery is an HBAR and with a light on it it gets really front heavy.   Plus the guys I've watched seem to do this, so I thought it was the way to do it.  On the other hand, I've been hitting the bolt catch / release with my thumb.

kyledefoorreloads

frankproctorreload

I don't really think it's super duper important to know how to do this for a home invasion because more than likely I'm just going to have my gun and my jammies, without a reload on me.  But it's still good to do it well in case.   Plus I'm thinking I might want to stash a loaded mag in a few different places in my home.

I did attach it differently and it really helped.     I probably need a better quality set up though, something more permanent. Off to the side.

I don't have a VFG, so I don't totally understand the light placement thing.  I use my thumb.  It's the only place that seems to make sense.  Unless I get a tape switch.  Actually even with a VFG the other side doesn't seem to make sense.  Unless your grabbing it like people used to do a long time ago.

travishaleyreload

I think all three of these guys do something very similar.  And I'm pretty sure Pat MacNamara does it too.  (drop gun down under the arm a bit)  And they talk about getting the gun into your "workspace".

Yep, those are some really good videos, and those guys are 87x more qualified to teach than I am!  The arm pocket is nice and stable, and can help with front end heavy guns (including HBAR and suppressed).  It probably comes down to comfort and preference, and also where you consider a "safe" position for the muzzle when not on target.  That is where some of the controversy comes up...is up in the air "safe" or is pointed down range towards the berm or slightly to the ground safe.

Ah, gotcha.  

I was trying to see what Pat Rogers says about it but I haven't seen a vid that actually shows him do it.  There is a vid and he is mostly talking about how if you don't push / pull properly, you get the Moose patch......   But he did kind of look like maybe he does it at sort of a low ready.........

I'll concede that I did get ahead of my coffee, and thusly myself this morning. Ya, weak side is your best option without a tape switch. It looked like you had one at first view. I'm not a fan of tape switches myself, just another thing to break.

Good luck with controlling your Lyme.

Anyway, you may be medically unable to hold the rifle up in the shoulder in that case. The "chicken wing" works then. I don't ever suggest it for someone who is in good health though.

The way you intend to handle things, the sling is a good option.

That's where I like to run the front QD. I find that it does help manage the sling during reloads.

I run my slings at qd socket under castle nut on rear plate and at qd socket at rear of rail close to receiver, weak side of rail. That keeps the sling away from my light, stops reload interference, and keeps me from grabbing the sling and rail at the same time if I need to do a quick adjustment and get back on the gun. I run Vickers slings exclusively. Over strong side, under weak side.

A sling is as crucial for a long gun as a holster is for a pistol. Without one you cannot transit in to handgun without dropping your weapon on the deck. You can't climb a fence, ascend a ladder, cuff someone, render first aid, etc. without putting rifle on the deck either.

That location of attachment choice puts the muzzle where I want it when I drop the rifle, but limits control when slung, either dropped in front or moved to back. It is a trade off, but I also have stopped using padded slings and started using sockets near the rear sling mount to allow transition to a single point configuration for in vehicle use. You cannot stick a rifle out the strong side window of a car with a 2 point very effectively.

I have zero issues reloading. I eject the mag during the Travis Haley "check the chamber" movement and toss it strong side. This speeds reloads because the Haley technique requires WAITING to get enough rotation to clear your body before pressing the magazine release or you won't clear the mag. Also, if you are too bladed from being in a tight or weird spot, you can toss the mag into your chest or gear or weak side elbow. You must also throw the mag wider weak side than strong. If the mag fails to fly free on the first attempt, the Haley ejection technique is my backup chance to get centrifugal force for ejection to clear my body. Since I normally can tell my rifle is empty and not malfunctioning, this is faster for me. If I'm not sure it's an empty mag, I don't eject and just check chamber like Haley and proceed accordingly.

I'm a default muzzle up reloader on rifles and mag fed handguns. Everyone should practice both as both have thier place, but muzzle down gets more leg sweeps with people in tight confines IMO, same with pistols.

All that said, I don't have issues with my sling getting in the way of my reloads.

Thank you for sharing.  It helps.  I don't quite get it when people say muzzle down for indoors either.  Unless it's a 2 story building with people above.  I live in a single story home.

Yes, that's a big reason they get them. IMHO though, Single points are kinda dumb in general as the only capability they add is that they serve as a rifle holster, but they leave your muzzle flopping around like a .. well you get the idea. Muzzles flopping around is very very bad. Learn how to shoot and USE a two point sling.

It sounds like you are simply running your sling WAY too tight.

Go watch how Pat MacNamara and Larry Vickers shoot. Their slings are pretty loose actually.


If you are using your sling taut for CQB shooting, you are most likely very much inhibiting functions like reloading. You should be shooting with a grip such that if you were to remove your firing hand from the pistol grip while the rifle is fully presented and tucked into your shoulder, your support hand alone should hold it in place. Not your firing hand, not your sling.

It is not you OP

I hate slings they are constantly in the way at all times I own 1 & never use it.

as a civilian outside of a stabilization aide they are a waste in the military the term carry strap is all that needs to be said.

Now you 1% door kicking SWAT dudes might need a $60  5 foot long sling  dragging from your patrol car door jam as you operate but I have no need.

I think it's more of a function of not having the right gear.  I've watched that video before and it makes sense to just put it over your neck when your shooting.  If my sling was too tight, it wasn't because I was wanting to use it to keep the gun up.  I just didn't have an adjustable one and the silent sling might not be long enough with the way I had it attached.  I also was doing a high ready reload and I think I'm going to change to a low ready.  

But SD307 I'm totally with you.  Every time I try to attach one, it bothers the living snot out of me.  It's not all that bad in the traditional lower point 2 point, for just carrying, or using as a hasty sling when shooting, but in the way they're used in the "tactical" sense, I'm having a hard time getting used to it.   I keep thinking about ordering a Proctor sling, but then I don't do it.  My only reason for wanting one is retention if I get jumped in an HD scenario.  Which is a good reason.   But having said that, I'm not sure just putting it over my neck is a good idea.  If someone is yanking on it, the neck is kind of a.....  well it might not be the best place to be having someone yank a strap around.  It would be better to be around the body.   I might just not use one though.  I'm undecided.  

I'm not likely to be using my AR and my pistol together.  Unless I guess you're training for the invasion or SHTF.  Which I know is possible.  But I'm trying to work on the basics first.  Which for me is either an incident with my carry gun out and about.  Or if there's time to grab my AR for a Home Defense scenario.  I don't plan to strap on a pistol, then grab my AR in my underwear.  It's going to be one or the other.

I mean this in a good way, but you sure can over think a lot...

If you have never spent a lot of time using a rifle with a sling, then yeah, its gonna feel weird at first. But like anything, you invest the time in it, and it becomes second nature. I don't think there was ever a time when I used a rifle without a sling. Its like a Holster for your rifle. I've tried lots of different slings over the years.. 3 pt...single point... and I always come back to a two point sling. the VCAS has been the best sling I have used hands down in many years...  The Gear sector 2 points are a good second.

If all you do is just sit and stand by a bench and shoot, then yea, you can live without a sling... But I would challenge you to move (run if you can) with your rifle, using a sling, transition from rifle to Pistol.
Practice reloads... Man, there are a ton of drills you can do that require minimal ammo that will help you achieve a level of Manipulation running the gun and a Pistol that will just reinforce good habits and condition you to be able to reload while having the rifle slung around you.

I've tried the sling around the neck and I do not find it comfortable... its purpose... to allow easier transition from shooting strong to weak side. For that purpose it works fine.

Pick a sling, hook it up... and start practicing. You will be mildly surprised how natural it can become.

So I can't be practicing drills because I don't have a sling on?   I actually did do a bit of running and gunning this week.  Not a lot, but starting to work that in.  For sure I've never just only shot from the bench. I have always shot standing, sitting, kneeling and prone (well prone took a backseat for a while because of my health but I worked that in this week).  I've worked on shooting fast from the low ready (at 12 yards, since this is the longest shot in my house down my hallway)  I did this little drill this week where I shot off hand from 33 yards on 1 target ran to 12 yards and shot another target off hand.  I didn't work in any reloads that day and should have, but I spent more of my time zeroing the new rear sight.  Am I supposed to show you pics of that and my targets to prove that (the other stuff besides zeroing targets)?  I didn't have my son take any because I don't have to prove that to anyone.

I did work on reloads and shooting against a timer with my pistols that day.  From draw to first shot and then reload time from last shot to new shot of new mag (and speed strip)

You know what pisses me off harv is I'm trying to genuinely get better.  Physically after fighting lyme disease, and with my guns to be more ready if I ever had to use them.  And what I get from you is judgement and talking down to me when you don't even know the facts.  (To be fair I have not done a LOT Of moving around, but some.  Or at least I have typically tried to transition multiple targets here and there).

So, yes, maybe I overthink things a little.  And yes, you get used to shit when you use it over and over.  But I don't have to do it just like you do it.  


 And again, a lot of my practical experience comes from deer hunting and I never liked slings then.  And I wasn't just sitting in a stand.  I was the youngest cousin out of my whole family and that earned me the right to be the pusher a lot.   And I learned to stalk and walk and still hunt and listen and make my way through rough terrain.  And one thing I didn't want was some thing hanging off my gun to get snagged on stuff.  I used one once and ixnayed it.  So that's kind of where I'm coming from.  And I know I'm not alone in that perspective.  

In the spirit of learning, if you're willing to suggest a good video set, or even something on the youtube that you think are good drills, I'm all ears.  I have seen a lot of stuff and I'm not really sure which ones to start with.

I apologize if I took your  comment the wrong way.  At first it made it seem like you said I was just shooting from the bench.  And that's really not what is going on.   Although there may have been a time or two quite a while ago that that's all I could muster energy wise.

If you think you don't need a sling try this drill.

From Ready 1 Rifle /1 Pistol 7 yards 3.25 seconds on a 4" square target

Let me know how that works for you.

For bonus try this one.

From ready, with a loaded rifle mag on you, an empty magazine in your rifle, rifle chamber loaded, rifle on safe. 1 Rifle / 1 Pistol / Speed Reload / 1 Rifle 7 yards 6.5 seconds 4" square target.

After you pick up your beat up rifle completing the first drill, try the second. You will realize why you need a sling very quickly.

I find the sling to get in the way of reloads off my chest more than anything else, not with the loading of a magazine itself. Try loading from the belt to avoid grabbing the sling and rifle mag at the same time.

I'm a 2pt sling guy. I think many on here forget that we're not all duty/mil/super tactical operators. Many (such as myself) employ a sling because it will be carried/slung more than used (thank god). Should I even NEED to utilize the sling (in my case, back slung is important, with ability to front sling if required), it's on there. Someone like me would be carrying it miles in the woods, in no immediate danger, and I'd rather have hands free and comfortably slung on back rather than banging against my knees or constantly in my hands.

Honestly, my sling never comes off, nor should it. Every round trained with my rifles is with sling. I never notice it. If I shoot somone else's rifle sans sling I feel naked. Feel like I am going to drop it accidentally somehow. I see no reason to shoot with it over neck only. I don't subscribe to weak side shooting. It is not worth the reduction in accuracy, nor the time your are unable to employ the rifle mid transition. I think this is best for the majority of SWAT level guys or military infantry as well. If you are a top 3 gun national level guy or super Delta guy, perhaps weak side has a place for you. Or if you are so good strong side you are bored perhaps. For everyone else, strong side 100% of the time. If the sling is in the way, you have it mounted too far forward, dont lift the muzzle enough, or you don't rotate the rifle enough during reload if the sling is loose or rotate it too much if it's tight. It would be easy to see if you posted a video. I quit trying to use a tactical sling as a stabilization device... it just harms consistency of muzzle movement.