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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:33:06 PM EDT
I saw this comment on my latest 1-6x video and found it interesting:
"Ok, none of these scopes is worth a crap when the distance between the shooter and target never gets further than 400 yards in real combat. Any simple red dot scope can hit at 400 yards in. Please tell these subscribers not to spend that much money on this kind of scope. The gun industry is fleecing the gun buyers with products that are ridiculously expensive and not even needed for most shooters.?" The video in question: 
Your thoughts? |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:47:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Almost every quote that includes the words "real combat" is probably wrong.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:49:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Good luck ID'ing at 400y with an RDS
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:55:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Can I hit steel out to 400 with my T1? Yep
Is it easier to PID out to 400 with my 1-4X TR24? Yep. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:56:28 PM EDT
[#4]
I can hit a man sized target at 400 yards with an Aimpoint PRO but the 2 moa dot is taking up 8" of the target so I'm not exactly able to be precise about it. I would much rather prefer to use a magnified optic for that range though so I can actually see what I'm shooting at.
You also don't have to spend a fortune to get a quality scope either. Will the glass be nicer on a $2k scope vs a $300 scope? Of course. Is it worth the extra $1700? That is totally up to the end user. Bottom line is I think that guy is talking shit just to hear his gums flap. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:57:16 PM EDT
[#5]
He has a point...
For a HD type carbine for the average AR shooter, a good Aimpoint is more than capable of making solid hits at 400 yards. I run mostly RDS, I tried a Meopta 1-4 and found it really heavy with poor battery life. I only used 1 or 4 power. I am wanting to try a Strike Eagle though! |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:58:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Show me a CQO that can properly identify the target from friend or foe or scouting the situation at that distance.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 11:06:10 PM EDT
[#7]
I suppose it depends on what you want the scope for. On my first carbine, I started out with a Meopta 1-4 but ended up concluding that it was not the best solution for my needs. I'm a non-LEO civilian, and realistically it would be freakishly rare for a situation to arise where I had legal justification to be shooting someone more than 100 yards away. So, for a self-defense carbine, I currently think a micro red dot zeroed at 50 yards is the best solution for me (and if my eyes were not aging, the best solution might be irons).
If I was a 3-gun competitor, perhaps there would be a different need that would dictate a different solution (having never even attended a 3-gun event, I can only speculate). If I was a coyote hunter, yet another solution. If I was a LE sniper, there would probably be a different solution. I read an article by an experienced infantry officer who had served in Afganistan and was making the case for a return to the 500m infantry rifle based on his experience in that terrain. Such a weapon would logically call for yet a different optic solution (ACOG?). The SOPMOD kits contain several optics. What is this "real combat" your commenter is concerned with? Civilian self-defence, LE patrol carbine, SWAT, regular infantry, special operations...? I suspect that every type of optic on the market is aimed at some perceived consumer need. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:01:03 AM EDT
[#8]
He makes a great point. I ordered the steiner p4xi for better target id and first round hits. It will hopefully replace my more expensive aimpoint. I'll post a review when I get it.
BTW I see midway has a vx6 firedot 1-6 blemished for $783 The net = the age of faceless experts and tough guys = my thoughts on this guy |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:02:17 AM EDT
[#9]
I think it all comes down to the situation. What's that magpul quote about the mission dictating or something like that?
Awesome video btw. Can you share how you get the scope footage? |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:46:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome video btw. Can you share how you get the scope footage? Sure, I mount a GoPro on the buffer tube using their bike mount. It's not easy and quite a pain in the butt. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 1:27:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Almost every quote that includes the words "real combat" is probably wrong. Almost any comment posted to Youtube is probably wrong. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 1:30:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Show me a CQO that can properly identify the target from friend or foe or scouting the situation at that distance. Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 1:30:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Disregard, not in GD.
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Posted: 8/24/2016 1:59:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Hunt much? A hit is not a kill when hunting, shot placement means dropping an animal in its tracks or wounding it and possibly never finding it.
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Posted: 8/24/2016 2:03:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Show me a CQO that can properly identify the target from friend or foe or scouting the situation at that distance. Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. Get both  
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Posted: 8/24/2016 2:52:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My SBR has an H1 to do house defense work and my mid length road buddy has a Strike Eagle. Get both
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. Get both
I agree, but I was just answering your original question. I have a T2 on a HD rifle and a VX3 on a bolt. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 5:52:38 AM EDT
[#17]
I'm just amused that the commenter went on about how 1-X optics are about the industry fleecing people...when at least one of them (Strike Eagle) is about the same price as an entry-level red dot, and significantly cheaper than, say, an Aimpoint T1, H1, or M4s.
Referring to the idea of most people being best served with RDS...to borrow from the late, great Pat Rogers, "The mission drives the gear train." |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 7:57:04 AM EDT
[#18]
I think you nailed it in your opening comments: "Precise at distance, fast up close".
The US mil issues both 1x RDS (Aimpoint / EOTech) and 4x optics like the ACOG TA31 to the masses. With low power variables you have the option to "get both" Do you NEED both? No. Is it worth it? The market says "Yes" |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 8:35:32 AM EDT
[#19]
I guess ACOGs suck too for "real combat" then.
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Posted: 8/24/2016 8:36:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I saw this comment on my latest 1-6x video and found it interesting: "Ok, none of these scopes is worth a crap when the distance between the shooter and target never gets further than 400 yards in real combat. Any simple red dot scope can hit at 400 yards in. Please tell these subscribers not to spend that much money on this kind of scope. The gun industry is fleecing the gun buyers with products that are ridiculously expensive and not even needed for most shooters.?" The video in question:  JHzvI6zu7Mo
Your thoughts? He's a tard who can't shoot worth a fuck. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 8:40:35 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He has a point... For a HD type carbine for the average AR shooter, a good Aimpoint is more than capable of making solid hits at 400 yards. I run mostly RDS, I tried a Meopta 1-4 and found it really heavy with poor battery life. I only used 1 or 4 power. I am wanting to try a Strike Eagle though! Bring your Aimpoint out and hit a brown target in a grassy/wooded background at 400 yards. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 9:12:56 AM EDT
[#22]
If i am shooting to a disttance of 400 yards, i am using my rifle with the 6-18x. I am also shooting at prarrie dogs or coyote.
I tried to use my ar with an eotech and 3x once. I couldnt hit a pdog at 140yds. I am not as cool as the rest of arfcom 
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Posted: 8/24/2016 9:28:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bring your Aimpoint out and hit a brown target in a grassy/wooded background at 400 yards. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
He has a point... For a HD type carbine for the average AR shooter, a good Aimpoint is more than capable of making solid hits at 400 yards. I run mostly RDS, I tried a Meopta 1-4 and found it really heavy with poor battery life. I only used 1 or 4 power. I am wanting to try a Strike Eagle though! Bring your Aimpoint out and hit a brown target in a grassy/wooded background at 400 yards. Or a target that's behind cover, or a moving target, etc etc. Just a really dumb comment. Not to mention there are plenty of other purposes for these scopes besides "real combat". |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 9:35:10 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or a target that's behind cover, or a moving target, etc etc. Just a really dumb comment. Not to mention there are plenty of other purposes for these scopes besides "real combat". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
He has a point... For a HD type carbine for the average AR shooter, a good Aimpoint is more than capable of making solid hits at 400 yards. I run mostly RDS, I tried a Meopta 1-4 and found it really heavy with poor battery life. I only used 1 or 4 power. I am wanting to try a Strike Eagle though! Bring your Aimpoint out and hit a brown target in a grassy/wooded background at 400 yards. Or a target that's behind cover, or a moving target, etc etc. Just a really dumb comment. Not to mention there are plenty of other purposes for these scopes besides "real combat". I shot limited/irons division for several years in 3-gun. Magnified optics are so much more capable it isn't even funny. And we usually have decent target presentation in 3-gun. Put some sun in your eyes or have unpainted targets and iron shooters become handicapped with a quickness. Low powered variables are superior to red dots in every category except weight and durability. I haven't broken my razor yet. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 9:39:55 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If i am shooting to a disttance of 400 yards, i am using my rifle with the 6-18x. I am also shooting at prarrie dogs or coyote. I tried to use my ar with an eotech and 3x once. I couldnt hit a pdog at 140yds. I am not as cool as the rest of arfcom You're not alone, lotsa ninja warriors in here with better than eagle eye sight apparently. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 10:25:43 AM EDT
[#26]
shoot a donkey or a man at 400
shoot a man off a donkey at 400 |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 10:35:30 AM EDT
[#27]
Every optic has its place. Red dots like eotech and aimpoint are faster on close targets. Hunting scopes help positively ID an animal and assist in accuracy. Long range scopes are a necessity for extended ranges.
Low power variables are a blurred line between red dots and fixed power optics like ACOG's. They may be not be perfect for any application but they are a good Jack of all trades. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 11:02:52 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hunt much? A hit is not a kill when hunting, shot placement means dropping an animal in its tracks or wounding it and possibly never finding it. Along with being sure of your target and what's behind it. A magnified optic greatly increases safety in hunting, in my opinion. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 11:07:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Show me a CQO that can properly identify the target from friend or foe or scouting the situation at that distance. Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. I get your point your making. But the trade off is more weight, more bulk and twice the rail space. At the end of the day you have an enhanced red dot that is still incapable of doing it as EFFICIENTLY as a variable power scope. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 11:14:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If i am shooting to a disttance of 400 yards, i am using my rifle with the 6-18x. I am also shooting at prarrie dogs or coyote. I tried to use my ar with an eotech and 3x once. I couldnt hit a pdog at 140yds. I am not as cool as the rest of arfcom I used to use an Eotech with a 3x magnifier out to 400 yards. Worked great! But when reliable 1 - 4x variables with decent/good reticles became available I found that they did it better. And without batteries being completely necessary. And OP anybody that says they can hit with the same precision at 400 yards with a RDS and a scope is full of shit. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 11:40:43 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck ID'ing at 400y with an RDS THIS.. maybe the guy is confusing 400 FEET with 400 YARDS... |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:02:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Everyone develops an opinion based on their experience. My ideal fighting rifle scopes are Leupold's illuminated 1.5X5 Mark 4's and VX-R 30mm main tube series. They allow the best of both worlds. Dial the magnification down and turn the dot on for close range point and shoot targets. Turn the illumination off and turn the magnification up for long range precision. Illumination allows the scope to work 24/7.
A police officer or MOUT infantry soldier is well served 90+% of the time with a quality red dot alone. <200 yards is where these units shine and nothing is as fast on target at close range. Adding a magnifier to a red dot defeats it's prime purpose IMO. Their strong suit is that they are simple, light and fast to action. I don't want more weight and another contraption attached to the rifle, but again, that's me. The idea that the gun industries is misleading anyone is ludicrous. The idea that the customer doesn't know what they want is equally absurd. It's your money, spend it as you see fit. I like premium everything. The stuff works and lasts and is a source of pride and confidence. Made in the USA just makes it all the sweeter. I own several Aimpoints (Sweden) and will buy foreign equipment if it's top tier. I find most youtube videos to be annoying at some level. Unless it's a hands on how-to academic style piece I usually pan them. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:14:55 PM EDT
[#33]
As a related question, I've seen a few posts from dudes that went from red dots to variables and then ditched their variables to go back to red dots.
What do you think largely drives this? |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:19:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a related question, I've seen a few posts from dudes that went from red dots to variables and then ditched their variables to go back to red dots. What do you think largely drives this? I like both and will continue to use both. Meh. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:29:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I saw this comment on my latest 1-6x video and found it interesting: "Ok, none of these scopes is worth a crap when the distance between the shooter and target never gets further than 400 yards in real combat. Any simple red dot scope can hit at 400 yards in. Please tell these subscribers not to spend that much money on this kind of scope. The gun industry is fleecing the gun buyers with products that are ridiculously expensive and not even needed for most shooters.?" The video in question: JHzvI6zu7Mo
Your thoughts? What civilian is buying a 1-6X, or any scope, for social reasons? When would a realistic self defense scenario involve shooting someone at 400 yards? The guys comment is irrelevant to begin with. There very well might be technical considerations for/against LPV scopes in a military unit, but civilians aren't military units. In other words, the civilian market isn't buying LPV scopes for "real combat". Also, I can't believe someone wouldn't find it easier to hit a target consistently 400 yards away with 6x magnification than no magnification. Hell, even at 100 yards magnification improves my accuracy. That's way I use a LPV scope on my hunting AR-15. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:47:33 PM EDT
[#36]
My eyes are fucked up and I can't really use an Aimpoint much past 50 yards. An ACOG is my preferred optic for everything. I just use irons around the house.
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:52:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, I mount a GoPro on the buffer tube using their bike mount. It's not easy and quite a pain in the butt. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Awesome video btw. Can you share how you get the scope footage? Sure, I mount a GoPro on the buffer tube using their bike mount. It's not easy and quite a pain in the butt. I didn't even think of that. So is it pretty easy to shoot through the camera or do you have to get wonky? I might try it for hunting season this year. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:54:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't even think of that. So is it pretty easy to shoot through the camera or do you have to get wonky? I might try it for hunting season this year. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Awesome video btw. Can you share how you get the scope footage? Sure, I mount a GoPro on the buffer tube using their bike mount. It's not easy and quite a pain in the butt. I didn't even think of that. So is it pretty easy to shoot through the camera or do you have to get wonky? I might try it for hunting season this year. You can't see through the camera so you have to point shoot with it. If you want something that you can shoot through, look at the SkopeCam. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 1:46:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess ACOGs suck too for "real combat" then. This is exaclty what I was gonna say. Lots of dudes that BTDT with a 4x ACOG on their M4/M16A4/Mk18 whatever else you want to call them. Personally, I think anything past 10-15 yards, magnification is a good thing. But I'm getting old. An RDS shines at spitting distances. But then I always make the argument that at spitting distances, I don't think irons are that much slower, and everyone yells at me. Obviously an RDS has the edge in speed though. I think the 1-4 or 1-6's or that type are probably the best deal going for AR's, if you can take the weight. I guess I need to watch the video.
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Posted: 8/24/2016 2:48:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a related question, I've seen a few posts from dudes that went from red dots to variables and then ditched their variables to go back to red dots. What do you think largely drives this? They might only shoot on ranges that are fairly short and decided they don't need the magnification or want the lightest rifle possible. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 2:50:19 PM EDT
[#41]
how the hell do you guys see something the size of a human at 400? maybe i need to wear my glasses more!
i think the real question is; what is the max distance you can make a hit on a man-sized target with the first shot? and you can do this with an RDS's? if not then its a moot point, being able to make hits at any distance. secondly, in a SHTF scenario, are you really going to be taking 400 yd shots? what is that threat? a long range sniper? if so, you'd be hit before you had a chance to pick your nose. i guess if i was a lone wolf, sole survivor, traveler on foot and no other shooter support, i could see have a "jack of all trades master of none rifle" with an 1x-X variable because you do have to have your bases covered in order to survive. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 3:03:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: how the hell do you guys see something the size of a human at 400? maybe i need to wear my glasses more! i think the real question is; what is the max distance you can make a hit on a man-sized target with the first shot? and you can do this with an RDS's? if not then its a moot point, being able to make hits at any distance. secondly, in a SHTF scenario, are you really going to be taking 400 yd shots? what is that threat? a long range sniper? if so, you'd be hit before you had a chance to pick your nose. i guess if i was a lone wolf, sole survivor travel on foot and no other shooter support, i could see have a "jack of all trades master of none rifle with an 1x-X variable because you do have to have your bases covered in order to survive. Hitting minute of man at 400 yards is not that big of a deal. All these guys that were in the military could do it with iron sights. The issue is that a target is not going to be that big or standing still in a normal application. Coyotes, deer, ground hogs, zombie heads, whatever. 6" plates at 150yds are really a better test of usability. Red dots are awesome for close stuff like you would find in a pistol bay or indoors. 1-6 is more usable in a broader spectrum and ideal for gaming. For what it is worth my SBR has an Eotech on top. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 3:07:35 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm always thinking it's a good idea to be capable of hitting a turkey, deer, rabbit at as far as you can. If you really needed to. Or wanted to.
Plus I think it's the same thing as with pistols. Dudes that were supposed to know about self defense are always saying how you should just shoot and train for bad breath distances. I think shooting out to 50 with a pistol is a good thing. Or more if you can. Will you ever need to shoot that far? Hopefully not. But hopefully you'll never need to shoot anybody at all. But I've heard about situations that seems like it would be a good thing to know how to make hits at distance with your pistol. Better to be able to and have practiced then to be totally clueless and useless at distance. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 3:14:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Seeing as how I cant even use red dots at all because of my horrible astigmatism, it would take a miracle to hit something at 400yd with one.
Acogs 4 lyfe 
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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:16:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Your thoughts? Retards are everywhere. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:20:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to use an Eotech with a 3x magnifier out to 400 yards. Worked great! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If i am shooting to a disttance of 400 yards, i am using my rifle with the 6-18x. I am also shooting at prarrie dogs or coyote. I tried to use my ar with an eotech and 3x once. I couldnt hit a pdog at 140yds. I am not as cool as the rest of arfcom I used to use an Eotech with a 3x magnifier out to 400 yards. Worked great! On prarrie dogs? Did you have. 3x for your 3x for your 3x? |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:26:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a related question, I've seen a few posts from dudes that went from red dots to variables and then ditched their variables to go back to red dots. What do you think largely drives this? The only thing I could think of was that they don't need the extra bulk. If my smallest target was a silhouette at 100 yards, I think I would be fine with a red dot. When you start to stretch target distances, and shrink targets, LPV start to shine. There is no doubt that simple red dots weigh less. That is a consideration if you carry it all the time. The battery life of an Aimpoint sure would be nice. But then, I don't leave my scope on all the time, and if I ever pick it up in a hurry, the reticle is ALWAYS there. But there are certainly circumstances where an Aimpoint is better. Not my circumstances though. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:42:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a related question, I've seen a few posts from dudes that went from red dots to variables and then ditched their variables to go back to red dots. What do you think largely drives this? Probably don't shoot at long enough ranges on a regular basis to justify the weight/size penalty of a LPV. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:51:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably don't shoot at long enough ranges on a regular basis to justify the weight/size penalty of a LPV. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As a related question, I've seen a few posts from dudes that went from red dots to variables and then ditched their variables to go back to red dots. What do you think largely drives this? Probably don't shoot at long enough ranges on a regular basis to justify the weight/size penalty of a LPV. This is why I'm using a QD scope mount for my 3x9 and will use a QD mount for a micro dot layer on, options. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:56:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get your point your making. But the trade off is more weight, more bulk and twice the rail space. At the end of the day you have an enhanced red dot that is still incapable of doing it as EFFICIENTLY as a variable power scope. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Show me a CQO that can properly identify the target from friend or foe or scouting the situation at that distance. Just to be smart@$$, an Aimpoint with a 3x (or hopefully soon the 6x) would do the trick. But I see both points. It is more about margin of error and what you're willing to live with. I get your point your making. But the trade off is more weight, more bulk and twice the rail space. At the end of the day you have an enhanced red dot that is still incapable of doing it as EFFICIENTLY as a variable power scope. Again, I was just being a smart@$$ answering his "challenge" to Identify a target as friend/foe with a red dot. Weight or anything else was not a factor, just being able to see the target to identify was. Again, I run a T2 on a 9" 300blk rifle and a VX3 4-14 on a Rem700 bolt gun. Maybe my next rifle will have a LPV scope with illum, never handled one so I am not so confidant in dealing with them yet. Different rifles for different tasks. |
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