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Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
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Posted: 8/30/2014 6:20:56 PM EDT
Today I shot the rifle I just completed building earlier this week.  I am using a red dot (Vortex SPARC II) on this rifle, its the first time I have used a red dot as a primary optic.  Initial impressions are, disappointed.  I dont think that I chose the right type of optic for my uses.  I chose the red dot because its lightweight, fast target acquisition.  These areas it succeeds in very well.  What I dont like is that its not really (IMO) a precision type optic.  I shoot mostly at paper, shooting at 100 yards the 2 MOA dot (even when turned down low) obstructs much of the target.  At 50yrds it more than less covers the entire thing.  I knew that this was a possibility, but I did not expect target shooting with the red dot to be as boring as it is.  I guess I did not think it through.

I can see how the RD would be great for a combat situation, or for defensive purposes, man sized moving targets but for me I think that I might be happier with a different type of optic.  What dose the community have to say about this?  Do you feel that a 1-4 powered scope would be a better option?  Or perhaps a 3x or 5x fixed power like those offered by primary arms, or Vortex spitfire?  I believe these are called prism scopes.

I do want to keep weight down although I am not a gram counter.  This rifle is to be used for close-mid range.  Mostly target, some varmint.   If I was to replace this scope, I expect to get near $200 value for it, could invest another $100 for the right optic, so overall budget for replacement would be about $300, might be convinced to go to $400.  Any advice or suggestions is greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 7:27:03 PM EDT
[#1]
A 1-6x might be a good compromise between both worlds.  But the package with the mount will be heavy.  Aero precision makes the lightest mount at 3.3 oz. I have a primary arms 1-6x which is in your price range, works well.  Its 16oz, so it would be 19.3 oz total for the package which isn't that bad.  Many red dots are around 11oz by comparison.

However, a close - mid range and target rifle is like an oxymoron.  Your best best is to build another upper with glass on it and keep your current upper for the red dot.  While your at it, put a decent stainless barrel on the magnified upper, think SPR rifle.
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 7:39:16 PM EDT
[#2]
You could add a FTS magnifier to give you the best of both worlds. A 1-4x would also offer flexibility.
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 9:39:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for the replies.  I agree that close/mid range target rifle is a bit of an oxymoron.  I suppose a better description would be that most shots are going to be taken w/in 100 yards.    I do have another rifle with an 18 inch barrel and high mag scope for long range work.  Still i feel that I want a little magnification on this rig.  I really like the 1-6 PA scope you suggested.  Just watched a bunch of reviews on youtube and it looks like it could fit the bill well.  Regarding the magnifier, I think that I would run it with the magnification on 80% of the time leaving me me an extremely heavy fixed 3x.  I have heard lots of mixed reviews on the dot + magnifier set up... dont think its for me.  Thanks for the suggestion.  If you or anyone else can make an argument as to why I should reconsider I am all ears.  

At this juncture I am leaning heavily towards the 3 gun type scopes (1-4x w/ the exception being the PA 1-6 which is my number one choice at the moment).  This is what I am considering in order of preference (2/3 I am not sure if i prefer one over the other have not done as much homework as I need to):

1) PA 1-6
2 Burris Tac30
3) Leatherwood CMR

Please let me know what your thoughts are on these 3 and suggest anything I have overlooked.

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 10:29:00 PM EDT
[#4]
I can't say anything about the others, but I did have a Tac 30, and I liked it, but the center dot is not much different than the 2moa dot your are trying to replace. It's better, but not by much.

The larger center dot on that reticle was a deal breaker for me.

I have a Vortex Razor 1-6x, and a SWFA 1-6x on the way to compare, and after going that route I will never look back.

I do still keep a M4s handy because I like to change it up now and then.

If I was on your buget I would take a look at the PA -1-6x
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 10:52:49 PM EDT
[#5]
the only caveat of the Primary Arms 1-6x is that they are always out of stock, check their industry page and subscribe to the 1-6x thread.  They usually post ETA's on new shipments in there.  Also go to the 1-6x page and click on "email me when back in stock", be ready with your credit card, they sell out fast.
next shipment is in early september sometime, but that's not 100%.
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 8:29:27 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thanks for the replies.  I agree that close/mid range target rifle is a bit of an oxymoron.  I suppose a better description would be that most shots are going to be taken w/in 100 yards.    I do have another rifle with an 18 inch barrel and high mag scope for long range work.  Still i feel that I want a little magnification on this rig.  I really like the 1-6 PA scope you suggested.  Just watched a bunch of reviews on youtube and it looks like it could fit the bill well.  Regarding the magnifier, I think that I would run it with the magnification on 80% of the time leaving me me an extremely heavy fixed 3x.  I have heard lots of mixed reviews on the dot + magnifier set up... dont think its for me.  Thanks for the suggestion.  If you or anyone else can make an argument as to why I should reconsider I am all ears.  

At this juncture I am leaning heavily towards the 3 gun type scopes (1-4x w/ the exception being the PA 1-6 which is my number one choice at the moment).  This is what I am considering in order of preference (2/3 I am not sure if i prefer one over the other have not done as much homework as I need to):

1) PA 1-6
2 Burris Tac30
3) Leatherwood CMR

Please let me know what your thoughts are on these 3 and suggest anything I have overlooked.

Thanks
View Quote

Actually, the weight of red dot and magnifier is about the same as a scope and scope mount.  BUT the red dot is magnified with the target.. so its still going to cover just as much as before, which you're not crazy about.  Running a magnifier behind an Eotech is nice because the dot is 1 moa (smaller actually)..  
BUT if you want magnification 80% of the time, I think you will love a 1-4x..  PA makes a great budget product, but honestly I would save up for something non-budget.  BOCO.  Still buy from PA, they are great to work with.
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 9:50:15 AM EDT
[#7]
Neither a red dot or a 1-4 scope are really ideal for sitting around punching paper.  Sure, you can shoot groups with a red dot and it's one step above iron sights, but you likely won't be able to match the capabilities of your rifle because of a lack of magnification to refine your aiming point.

They're made for being light and quick up close...

VTAC Highsmith Drill
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 9:56:15 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Actually, the weight of red dot and magnifier is about the same as a scope and scope mount.  BUT the red dot is magnified with the target.. so its still going to cover just as much as before, which you're not crazy about.  Running a magnifier behind an Eotech is nice because the dot is 1 moa (smaller actually)..
BUT if you want magnification 80% of the time, I think you will love a 1-4x..  PA makes a great budget product, but honestly I would save up for something non-budget.  BOCO.  Still buy from PA, they are great to work with.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for the replies.  I agree that close/mid range target rifle is a bit of an oxymoron.  I suppose a better description would be that most shots are going to be taken w/in 100 yards.    I do have another rifle with an 18 inch barrel and high mag scope for long range work.  Still i feel that I want a little magnification on this rig.  I really like the 1-6 PA scope you suggested.  Just watched a bunch of reviews on youtube and it looks like it could fit the bill well.  Regarding the magnifier, I think that I would run it with the magnification on 80% of the time leaving me me an extremely heavy fixed 3x.  I have heard lots of mixed reviews on the dot + magnifier set up... dont think its for me.  Thanks for the suggestion.  If you or anyone else can make an argument as to why I should reconsider I am all ears.  

At this juncture I am leaning heavily towards the 3 gun type scopes (1-4x w/ the exception being the PA 1-6 which is my number one choice at the moment).  This is what I am considering in order of preference (2/3 I am not sure if i prefer one over the other have not done as much homework as I need to):

1) PA 1-6
2 Burris Tac30
3) Leatherwood CMR

Please let me know what your thoughts are on these 3 and suggest anything I have overlooked.

Thanks

Actually, the weight of red dot and magnifier is about the same as a scope and scope mount.  BUT the red dot is magnified with the target.. so its still going to cover just as much as before, which you're not crazy about.  Running a magnifier behind an Eotech is nice because the dot is 1 moa (smaller actually)..
BUT if you want magnification 80% of the time, I think you will love a 1-4x..  PA makes a great budget product, but honestly I would save up for something non-budget.  BOCO.  Still buy from PA, they are great to work with.


An MOA is 1/60th of a degree. 1 MOA spreads about 1" per 100 yards. (actually 1.047"). So it is not smaller,but a bit larger. It may appear smaller if you turn the illumination way down.

So if the Eotech dot is smaller than 1 moa. What size is it actually?
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 11:30:38 AM EDT
[#9]
get this and call it good .
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 12:29:28 PM EDT
[#10]
1-4 is a good choice the VXR Patrol from Leupold is somewhat light wt compared to others
You can get a more precision reticle plus the dot for close in or low light shooting
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 6:40:07 PM EDT
[#11]
One thing to keep in mind is that you aren't supposed to focus on the dot. That tends to help with dot size, if you focus on the target the dot bloom will be less apparent.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/1/2014 1:59:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
1-4 is a good choice the VXR Patrol from Leupold is somewhat light wt compared to others
You can get a more precision reticle plus the dot for close in or low light shooting
View Quote


This.  +1.  The Patrol's Firedot is .3 mils in size, which is about, if not exactly 1 MOA.  Superb glass.  Very effective circle dot type reticle.  True milrad turrets with milrad subtension hash marks on the reticle.  Motion activated dot.

The Patrol is outside OP's budget (close to $600)  but the Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4x20 has the same features with a little lower quality glass for about $425-450 shipped.  Only 9.6 punces.  Hard to beat Leupold on weight.
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