Site Notices
9/2/2014 6:40:42 PM
9/2/2014 3:43:50 PM
9/2/2014 1:00:39 PM
Author
Message
Sneakyuncle
Offline
Posts: 9
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 11/22/2007 9:49:04 PM

Uncle Sam gave me a new ACOG a couple months ago and my unit took them out to the range to zero, and of course instead of doing things the smart way we did them the "Army" way. So my my chain of command just assumed you zero at 25 meters with the ACOG just like we do with our BUIS. Because no one in my platoon had much experience with the ACOG no one really knew exactly how the sight should be properly zeroed.

One of the other squad leaders said that you can zero at 25 meters but the impact of the rounds should hit lower then center mass.

On our qualification day the rounds where hitting low and most my guys ended up using the good ol' Kentucky windage to qualify.

I know the manual says zero at 100m or you can do an alternative zero at 33 meters, but i don't recall any mention in the booklet of zeroing at 25 meters.

I just want to know if it is possible to zero an ACOG at 25 meters (if so how?) Or do i need to tell my chain of command that they are 8 up like a soup sandwich and need to give us a 100 meter range to zero the sight.








http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8720/img1411tg9.jpg
g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=510&i=img1411tg9.jpg]img510.imageshack.us/img510/8720/img1411tg
happycynic
Hater of sheeple
Offline
Posts: 7631
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/22/2007 10:01:07 PM
The 25m zero is for the standard iron sites IIRC. I believe you need to zero as per the manual to get the bullet drop compensator to work.
The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

- Gaius Cornelius Tacitus

An unjust law is no law at all

- St. Augustine of Hippo
Repete
Team Member
Offline
Posts: 1484
Feedback: 100% (48)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/22/2007 10:43:09 PM
The 25yd "O" only works with the irons, and that's because of the iron sight height over bore.
ACOG has to be 100yd "O" for the bdc system to work properly. (AIUI)
When guns are outlawed, what will you be....?
SMV
Offline
Posts: 423
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/22/2007 10:46:15 PM
Actually you need at least 100 meters to zero the ACOG AND THE ACOG RCO. The tip of the triangle is the 100 meter aiming point the base of the triangle is the 300 meter aiming point. You can zero using the standerd 25 meter target. I just took an rfi optic class. You take the tip of the triangle and place it at the top of the circle that should put the base of the chevron right in the middle of the 25 meter circle. This is you point of aim. To properly zero at 300 meters with this point of aim you rounds should be impacting at the base of the 25 meter circle. About 1 cm box above the bottem of the circle. Once you have a good zero you can use you BDC, to use it you simpley estimate your range and for example if you target is 400m away place the 400m line on you enemy. Pretty much aim high. To note aim for the head at 300 and youll get a good chest shot.
imurdaisy
Offline
Posts: 23
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/22/2007 11:17:29 PM
Sneakyuncle:

At 25 meters hold on target and adjust the sight to give you a point of impact about one inch below point of aim. This will put you right where you want to be at 100.

You need to check with Trijicon to make sure that you know what the bullet drop compensator is calibrated at. I'm pretty sure the NSN version was setup for 62gr 5.56 fired from an M4 at 2800 fps.

You can also zero at 25 meters and use it like an Aimpoint. You can ax handle your shot down to 300 meters, and use the reticle on the ACOG to range your target.

Any of these methods should work for well for you.

Regards,

IUD

Augee
Offline
Posts: 725
Feedback: 100% (128)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 4:34:10 AM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2007 4:52:23 AM by Augee]
You're getting a lot of different answers for this, to the point where I'm almost reluctant to tell you another method.

However, the 25m zeroing procedures for the ACOG, whether it's TA01NSN, TA31F, or TA31RCO-M4, basically any ACOG calibrated for a 14.5" barrel, according the Army Small Arms Integration Book, and the method which I have used to zero several ACOGs, including my personally used ACOG, as well as those in my platoon, is to use the 300m aiming point, and place it directly on the center of mass.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to get you the correct graphic aides, I would suggest you or your platoon leader or platoon sergeant go on AKO and look up the SAIB, but imagine if you will, a standard 25m zeroing target. It does not matter whether it's for an M16A1, M16A2, M4, or even an M68 CCO. As long as it has the silhouette on it, the adjustments will have to be done by guesswork and fiddlework, as far as I know, there are no good ACOG zeroing targets that will correctly give you the proper clicks, though instructors have been known to come up with all sorts of strange formulas.

The zeroing target has a silhouette in the center, and the page is divided into quarters, with thick black lines vertically and horizontally through the center. If you extrapolate those lines, they intersect directly on the center of mass of the silhouette. Keep this in mind.

For the TA01NSN, it is simple, just superimpose the reticule's crosshairs over the lines on the target. That will put your 300m aiming point in the center of mass of the target.

For the chevron reticules, the 300m aiming point is actually at the bottom of the chevron, as if you had taken an imaginary line, and drawn it across the bottom lines of the chevron, or the red tip of the BDC stadia. However, for these purposes, it is easier to simply use the chevron legs, and place them on the horizontal lines across the target. Again, your 300m aiming point will now be direct center of mass.

The example in the SAIB is of the M4 zeroing target. Again, it is simply a matter of the proper offset, however, the POI of your group should be 1.3 blocks down from the COM of the silhouette. Remember, this is for the M4 zeroing target. I you use a different zeroing target, make sure you get the proper offset, I don't remember it off the top of my head. I'm simply looking at the SAIB right now.

The offset accounts for the difference in the height over bore of the ACOG versus iron sights. Also, with the chevron, this will allow you to see the ranging reticule in action, as the width of the chevron legs should match the simulated 300m target.

Short version:

M4 25m Zeroing Target

POA: COM at 300m
POI: COM - 1.3 blocks

It is always good to reconfirm this zero at 100m, or as far out as the situation allows. However, if you zero with these methods, and do it correctly, you will qualify, you will shoot well, and you will not need to you use your Kentucky Windage.

Definitely try to find the SAIB, however, if you are interested in weapons and their employment. It has everything from full accessory lists for every small arm from the M9 to the Mk 19, plus Infantry MTOE's (useful even if you are not Infantry, I'm a 19 series Scout), ect. ect. ect. Good for PL's to look at, and for PSG's to *know.*

HTH,
~Augee

ETA:Not to sound like an ass, but one other thing the SAIB has in it is the 10m offset zero targets for the PEQ-2A and PAQ-4C. One look at those offset zero targets, and you'll see why Insight Technologies insists that both those items are designed to be mounted to the top of the handguard rail. The offset is... well, very very offset when using the side mounted option, it's much closer when top mounted.

Also, why the NODs on the weapon, if you've already got an IR aiming light mounted? The NODs do you no good there, as you can aim your weapon with the NODs mounted on your ACH and using the PAQ-4C, and this way, you don't have to point your weapon at everything you want to see at night... like your buddies next to you. It's generally considered rude

Just some friendly advice about the equipment, unless it's unit SOP, then leave it the way it is. Use your chain of command.

ETAII: No really, I'm not trying to sound like an ass! Equipment is often misused, or not used to its full capability when people are unaware of how they're designed! Not trying to run you, or your platoon! Last thing I need is some of your NCO's howling at me! Got enough of my own.
FMJ
Offline
Posts: 10211
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 6:09:51 AM
SEND ME WEAPON I WILL DO FOR FREE
FMJ
Offline
Posts: 10212
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 6:10:39 AM

Originally Posted By Repete:
The 25yd "O" only works with the irons, and that's because of the iron sight height over bore.
ACOG has to be 100yd "O" for the bdc system to work properly. (AIUI)


25M not YARDS RIGHT
steven_uk
Member
Offline
Posts: 986
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 6:16:48 AM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2007 6:18:21 AM by steven_uk]
IM me and I'll send you a .pdf copy of the zeroing instructions that I got for my TA01NSN.

ETA - The zero methods are 25m, 100m and 300m

The 25m zero is less precise than the 300m zero according to the manual.

'I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...'
Harv24
Member
Offline
Posts: 3318
Feedback: 100% (57)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 10:44:01 AM
IM me with your Email Address and I will send you the 25M Zero target for the M-4/M16A4 .
This will allow you to zero your M4 at 25 Meters with your ACOG and have the correct aiming points and offset..

(Yes.. You can zero at 25M and have the BDC work.. using this target)
R0N
Offline
Posts: 557
Feedback: 100% (27)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 10:49:04 AM
IM me an address I can send you the presentation the Marine Corps uses to train people.
Duffy
Sickness
Offline
Posts: 9643
Feedback: 100% (50)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 3:16:20 PM
Cool, it's the new RCO with ARD and laser filter
No Kitty! This is MY pot pie!
Victor
Tactical Night Vision Company
Online
Posts: 6908
Feedback: 100% (70)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 3:38:19 PM
Sneakyuncle, any reason the PVS-14 NV mount is in FRONT of your ACOG? There ARE POA/POI issues with this setup, so I hope they are not telling you to run like that? The PVS-14 needs to go on your head and let that PAQ-4 do the talking while you shoot with your head up. Hope this helps

Vic
Victor Di Cosola
Tactical Night Vision Company - TNVC
www.tacticalnightvision.com
victor@tacticalnightvision.com
(909) 659-2842

"Fear Not the Night, But Fear What Hunts the Night"
Duffy
Sickness
Offline
Posts: 9644
Feedback: 100% (50)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 3:42:48 PM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2007 3:44:08 PM by Duffy]
He's probably just stowing the PVS14 mount on the handguard If that's so, I'd rather put the PAC4-C on top and stow the PVS14 mount on the right side.
No Kitty! This is MY pot pie!
R0N
Offline
Posts: 558
Feedback: 100% (27)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 3:53:59 PM

Originally Posted By Victor:
Sneakyuncle, any reason the PVS-14 NV mount is in FRONT of your ACOG? There ARE POA/POI issues with this setup, so I hope they are not telling you to run like that? The PVS-14 needs to go on your head and let that PAQ-4 do the talking while you shoot with your head up. Hope this helps

Vic


While not as effective as an UNS, I know allot of guys who run their 14s that way and are able to hit people at pretty good ranges using the set up. I personally don't like do that because guys flag on another looking around, but it still works good enough for government work.
Victor
Tactical Night Vision Company
Online
Posts: 6910
Feedback: 100% (70)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 4:00:44 PM

Originally Posted By R0N:

Originally Posted By Victor:
Sneakyuncle, any reason the PVS-14 NV mount is in FRONT of your ACOG? There ARE POA/POI issues with this setup, so I hope they are not telling you to run like that? The PVS-14 needs to go on your head and let that PAQ-4 do the talking while you shoot with your head up. Hope this helps

Vic


While not as effective as an UNS, I know allot of guys who run their 14s that way and are able to hit people at pretty good ranges using the set up. I personally don't like do that because guys flag on another looking around, but it still works good enough for government work.


What ranges are we talking about here? Thanks
Victor Di Cosola
Tactical Night Vision Company - TNVC
www.tacticalnightvision.com
victor@tacticalnightvision.com
(909) 659-2842

"Fear Not the Night, But Fear What Hunts the Night"
R0N
Offline
Posts: 559
Feedback: 100% (27)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 4:03:58 PM
When on KD type course out to 500, but real world allot less because you cannot PID beyond a few hundred yards with NVG under most circumstances.
Sneakyuncle
Offline
Posts: 12
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/23/2007 9:55:50 PM
No their is no direct reason why the NOD mount is on the top of the handguard. I just put it their for safe keeping. Like you said i usually just lase the targets with my Paq-4 while keeping my NODs helmet mounted. it is much easier to point and shoot that way.
m24shooter
Don't tase me bro!
Offline
Posts: 3799
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/24/2007 10:27:17 AM

Originally Posted By Augee:
However, the 25m zeroing procedures for the ACOG, whether it's TA01NSN, TA31F, or TA31RCO-M4, basically any ACOG calibrated for a 14.5" barrel, according the Army Small Arms Integration Book, and the method which I have used to zero several ACOGs, including my personally used ACOG, as well as those in my platoon, is to use the 300m aiming point, and place it directly on the center of mass.

+1. The 25 and 300 aim points should get you there.
Still a tool.
Augee
Offline
Posts: 733
Feedback: 100% (128)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/24/2007 11:09:28 AM
Are you NYARNG?

~Augee