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Posted: 1/20/2017 5:04:56 AM EDT
[#1]
I have used the SFs and both are definitely unwieldy, especially compared to the D60 which keeps the CG of the mag closer to the gun.
I don't have enough rounds through the D60 (which I own) to can't attest to reliability other than what you already state: the SFs had a few hiccups. As for a carbine class, I would definitely run regular GI Al or PMags; half of the training is going to be mag changes and failure drills. |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 11:25:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have used the SFs and both are definitely unwieldy, especially compared to the D60 which keeps the CG of the mag closer to the gun. I don't have enough rounds through the D60 (which I own) to can't attest to reliability other than what you already state: the SFs had a few hiccups. As for a carbine class, I would definitely run regular GI Al or PMags; half of the training is going to be mag changes and failure drills. Thanks much for the info! I'll stick to the tried and true then. 
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Posted: 1/20/2017 4:07:08 PM EDT
[#3]
I had one Surefire 60 that randomly failed on me, taking it apart didn't see anything that would have caused the the FTF. It worked after reassembly but I never trusted that mag again. I recently sold it on the EE.
I've been using the Magpul D60 for the past 4 months, so far, zero issues at all. Loading it is a little more difficult but it has been as reliable as my standard PMAGs, Lancer AWMs and USGIs with Magpul followers. |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 7:56:27 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 1/21/2017 9:20:56 PM EDT
[#5]
I thought it had long been settled that the Surefires are complete garbage that should never have been released, and the D60 is just as good and reliable as regular Pmags. Being that the D60 is actually functional and cheaper than the 60-round Surefire, it seems a no-brainer to me which one to get.
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Posted: 1/22/2017 8:54:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Magpuls attempts at getting a quad stack to work is mentioned in their 10 year video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYqrwyWUyXE |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 1:00:50 PM EDT
[#7]
I've only gone through two fully-loaded cycles with my D60, but I'm really impressed by its design and execution - it's just an awesome piece of engineering. It feels just as smooth as a regular PMAG when firing, except for the added weight, of course, and it's actually almost boring to shoot because it just keeps going. I hope to have the chance to use it in a course here at some point to really exercise it. I can't see any need for the long Surefire design when I have the option of a compact, reliable drum like this. I'm actually in the process of trying to get some D60s for our M249s to let the guys test them, with the intent of using them as an emergency reload (a little faster than changing out a belt).
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Posted: 1/22/2017 5:11:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Isn't the M249 terrible at feeding from magazines? Even if the magazine itself is a good one like a Pmag?
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Posted: 1/22/2017 5:27:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Magpuls attempts at getting a quad stack to work is mentioned in their 10 year video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYqrwyWUyXE  Magpul 10th Anniversary Special - SHOT Show 2017 Day 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYqrwyWUyXE |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 5:29:12 PM EDT
[#10]
I've got two surefire 60's and a surefire 100.
One of the surefire 60's had to be replaced. Steel seems to add too much friction so I only use the surefire's with brass now. |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 6:05:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Tag for home, fucking subscribe doesn't work
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Posted: 1/22/2017 7:54:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't the M249 terrible at feeding from magazines? Even if the magazine itself is a good one like a Pmag? That's one of the advertised benefits of the D60 design, that the spring is strong enough to keep up with the rate of fire of the M249. They show it several times in their original video on the D60 product page: Magpul D60 Apparently the issue with the M249 and standard magazines is that the springs are too week to feed the rounds fast enough to keep up with the cyclic rate of the bolt. That's why I want to have some of the guys test it out, to confirm that it functions smoothly before we order more of them. |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 8:26:10 PM EDT
[#13]
I don't think it's the cyclic rate
The cyclic rate is 800 rpm, by comparison the M231 is 1,225 minimum. By comparison, the Daewoo K3 (Korean M249 knockoff) works fine from the magazine port AND it has a cyclic rate of 900 rpm (100 rpm FASTER!) |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 9:25:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryGreat presentation by Duane! Fascinating history over the past decade. I just came across some of my old Gen 1 PMAGs that I never really felt confident taking off to war. It just seemed to me like an uncertain product at the time, but I had no idea how much testing they had gone through. I really didn't fully commit to them until the introduction of what became the M2. Quoted:
I don't think it's the cyclic rate Fair enough. I'd love to hear the correct explanation, as I'm obviously not remembering it correctly, but I'm pretty sure it was related to the strength of the D60 spring. |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 10:28:43 PM EDT
[#15]
I tried the surefire 60 and while it worked so-so with brass cased ammo it was a complete fail with steel cased
Seemed like the the friction between the steel cases prevented it from feeding To be honest, I'm surprised even Surefire released them |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 10:40:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Cycle rate shouldn't be an issue with the surefire 60 and brass ammo. I was running over 1400rpm in this video.
 BumpSAW Surefire 60 dump 1400RPM https://youtu.be/A3SVErXz6dY |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 11:05:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I tried the surefire 60 and while it worked so-so with brass cased ammo it was a complete fail with steel cased Seemed like the the friction between the steel cases prevented it from feeding To be honest, I'm surprised even Surefire released them It's tells the tale of two company's.... Magpul started in 2009 trying to bring a quad stack to market, eight years later they still haven't released it because it doesn't work flawlessly. Surefire brought theirs to market and obviously it's a flawed design, but rather than hold it they went full speed ahead. I've yet to see ONE REPORT of them working at all with steel case ammo, I know when I filled one with Tula I had trouble just being able to get the ammo out of the magazine much less get it to run in an AR. Considering the B.S. reviews written in gun magazines, many shooters think the Surefire 60 is a 100% reliable magazine. I shudder to think how many LEO's might trust these based on erroneous reviews. I've lost all respect for Surefire. 
Kudos to Magpul |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 11:35:07 PM EDT
[#18]
I have 3 Surefire 60's and 2 of them had trouble running steel cased WOLF multiple times. They all ran brass flawlessly but then again haven't been filled more than a few times each. I would opt for a couple of Magpul PMAG40's coupled together over using either the Surefire60/100 or Magpul 60 as a GO-TO-WAR setup considering cost and reliability.
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Posted: 1/22/2017 11:40:40 PM EDT
[#19]
I have a D60 so far so good. I don't have a ton of rounds down range, but been 100% so far.
It gets easier to load every time, I used it today on my suppressed SBR. I was shooting Tula ammo. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 9:23:14 AM EDT
[#20]
Don't be "That Guy" at a carbine course with a drum mag.... I saw ONE guy at a 3 day course years ago try to run a Beta mag... its all he did was fuck with it, and he learned nothing (And he needed to learn....big time) The instructor let him alone and focused on those who were their to learn, not play with toys.
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:21:04 PM EDT
[#21]
The Beta mags were always unreliable and are way too bulky. The D60 is a far better design and is anything but a "toy." Any piece of gear worth potentially taking to combat is worth testing in a class to confirm its reliability and evaluate best practices for employing it. It's another tool in the kitbag. The only downside is less practice with magazine changes, but if you're hung up on the idea of using something other than a 30-round magazine for training, you're not looking at all the potential resources available to you.
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Posted: 1/23/2017 11:24:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's tells the tale of two company's.... Magpul started in 2009 trying to bring a quad stack to market, eight years later they still haven't released it because it doesn't work flawlessly. Surefire brought theirs to market and obviously it's a flawed design, but rather than hold it they went full speed ahead. I've yet to see ONE REPORT of them working at all with steel case ammo, I know when I filled one with Tula I had trouble just being able to get the ammo out of the magazine much less get it to run in an AR. Considering the B.S. reviews written in gun magazines, many shooters think the Surefire 60 is a 100% reliable magazine. I shudder to think how many LEO's might trust these based on erroneous reviews. I've lost all respect for Surefire.
Kudos to Magpul If I didn't sell my Surefire 60 already I would have tested it out with the Tula werewolf ammo earlier today lol, since I don't remember loading it with steel. I just shot 500rds through my secondary BCM rifle out in the desert, and my Magpul D60 was the last thing I shot before police call and leaving. Though it was loaded with old XM-193, I have loaded it with Wolf Poly 55gr and it worked 100%. All my ARs will feed anything whether brass or steel. I love my D60 drum, I don't miss the Surefire junk 60 at all. I bought it when I was active duty before I knew better about quad stack mags, and was hoping to take it with me to Afghanistan as a backup. Of course, when it randomly failed in my issued rifle during pre-deployment training, and in my personal AR during libo, I did not bring that garbage with me. I wish Magpul came out with the drum back then. I used to love Surefire but now my respect for them is about gone as well. Junk mags, overhyped and overpriced lights for the most part. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:52:16 PM EDT
[#23]
I have a Surefire 60 and it has ran near flawless in both my homebuild SBR and off the shelf Daniel Defense, mostly Tula, PMC, and Wolf Gold. At least 1,000 rounds through it only issue is it wont lock the bolt open a quarter of the time, no misfeeds or anything else. It doesnt work worth a shit in my buddies Colt 6920 or SCAR.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:24:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't the M249 terrible at feeding from magazines? Even if the magazine itself is a good one like a Pmag? Just a quick follow up. I watched the guys go through a team shoothouse this morning. Some of the SAW gunners were using regular GI 30-round magazines (they were already loaded for the riflemen), and they actually seemed to be working fine. I wouldn't use them on a real world operation though. The First Sergeant (who came from the Ranger Regiment) said SAWs work pretty well with PMAGs but not GI magazines. He's pretty interested in testing out some D60s. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:22:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a quick follow up. I watched the guys go through a team shoothouse this morning. Some of the SAW gunners were using regular GI 30-round magazines (they were already loaded for the riflemen), and they actually seemed to be working fine. I wouldn't use them on a real world operation though. The First Sergeant (who came from the Ranger Regiment) said SAWs work pretty well with PMAGs but not GI magazines. He's pretty interested in testing out some D60s. That's good to know. Maybe now that the Corps finally not only authorized Pmags, but is issuing them, there's a chance for D60s to be allowed or issued to SAW and IAR gunners. BTW, I take it you're in the Army? Infantry? |
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Posted: 1/25/2017 12:50:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Yes, I'm actually Armor, but serving in an Infantry battalion.
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Posted: 1/25/2017 11:03:52 PM EDT
[#27]
All my info about the SAW is just from reading, so it's good to get firsthand info. POG Marine that I am, I haven't touched a SAW since MCT.
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Posted: 1/25/2017 11:13:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Hundreds of rounds through both without much issue but IF I had to choose a mag to fight with between the two it would be the Magpul D60
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Posted: 1/25/2017 11:22:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Never tried the D60. I have one SF60 that I used in 3 gun that had no issues but I always use brass cased ammo.
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Posted: 1/26/2017 5:36:50 PM EDT
[#30]
honestly I prefer the surefire in many ways the d-60 is a pain to load and 1lbs - .5lbs heavier but the Magpul d-60 is clearly a better design.
both when fully loaded are not overly cumbersome but if you are at a course of fire where you need to be at a ready to fire position for over a minuet the 2lbs of ammo in the mag becomes tiring. the sursefire60 is easier to load and much lighter in weight but the fact is the d-60 is a better design . the d-60 is shorter out the mag well. both are less awkward than the 40 round pmag. |
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Posted: 1/26/2017 5:43:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't the M249 terrible at feeding from magazines? Even if the magazine itself is a good one like a Pmag? NO THAT IS NOT TRUE the 249 feeds out the magazine well but if you load the mag with blanks it will fail 100% of the time. since most Marines & soldiers use blanks alot more than than real bullets this rumor persist. the only place a SAW GUNNER USES LIVE AMMO IS IN COMBAT or on the ranges at ranges linked ammo is a given. In combat linked ammo is a given in Miles training blanks are a given and often not enough linked ammo is supplied so mags are used & they choke. |
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Posted: 1/26/2017 5:54:19 PM EDT
[#32]
I always thought Surefire should come out w/ a 45 round mag, or whatever would be the same length as a 30.
I always pitied the SAW gunners humping their guns & the ammo pouch through the chow hall. Good to know ordinary magazines should work. |
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Posted: 1/26/2017 9:05:15 PM EDT
[#33]
A Surefire quad stack that feeds 100% is a freakin' Unicorn!
They may exist but it sure in the hell isnt the norm. |
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Posted: 1/26/2017 11:35:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A Surefire quad stack that feeds 100% is a freakin' Unicorn!
They may exist but it sure in the hell isnt the norm. It would be interesting to see how they run upside down. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 12:16:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NO THAT IS NOT TRUE the 249 feeds out the magazine well but if you load the mag with blanks it will fail 100% of the time. since most Marines & soldiers use blanks alot more than than real bullets this rumor persist. the only place a SAW GUNNER USES LIVE AMMO IS IN COMBAT or on the ranges at ranges linked ammo is a given. In combat linked ammo is a given in Miles training blanks are a given and often not enough linked ammo is supplied so mags are used & they choke. Hmmm... That makes sense. Like I said I'm a POG, so I don't even get to shoot a SAW with blanks, let alone live ammo. Back to the D60, I really don't find it hard to load. I can see how it would be tedious if you hand load one round at a time, but if you use stripper clips and a speed loader like the StripLULA, it hardly takes longer than loading two 30 rounders. Each cycle of the loading lever gets about 3-4 rounds until the last few. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 12:25:49 AM EDT
[#36]
I may be a outlier, but I've had zero issues with my Surefire 60rd.
It maybe has 2,400 rounds through it. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 1:57:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I may be a outlier, but I've had zero issues with my Surefire 60rd.
It maybe has 2,400 rounds through it. Steel or brass? |
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Posted: 1/28/2017 10:11:11 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I may be a outlier, but I've had zero issues with my Surefire 60rd. It maybe has 2,400 rounds through it. |
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Posted: 1/29/2017 10:12:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's tells the tale of two company's.... Magpul started in 2009 trying to bring a quad stack to market, eight years later they still haven't released it because it doesn't work flawlessly. Surefire brought theirs to market and obviously it's a flawed design, but rather than hold it they went full speed ahead. I've yet to see ONE REPORT of them working at all with steel case ammo, I know when I filled one with Tula I had trouble just being able to get the ammo out of the magazine much less get it to run in an AR. Considering the B.S. reviews written in gun magazines, many shooters think the Surefire 60 is a 100% reliable magazine. I shudder to think how many LEO's might trust these based on erroneous reviews. I've lost all respect for Surefire.
Kudos to Magpul Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I tried the surefire 60 and while it worked so-so with brass cased ammo it was a complete fail with steel cased Seemed like the the friction between the steel cases prevented it from feeding To be honest, I'm surprised even Surefire released them It's tells the tale of two company's.... Magpul started in 2009 trying to bring a quad stack to market, eight years later they still haven't released it because it doesn't work flawlessly. Surefire brought theirs to market and obviously it's a flawed design, but rather than hold it they went full speed ahead. I've yet to see ONE REPORT of them working at all with steel case ammo, I know when I filled one with Tula I had trouble just being able to get the ammo out of the magazine much less get it to run in an AR. Considering the B.S. reviews written in gun magazines, many shooters think the Surefire 60 is a 100% reliable magazine. I shudder to think how many LEO's might trust these based on erroneous reviews. I've lost all respect for Surefire.
Kudos to Magpul I used a SF 60 for steel cased Wolf and it worked fine as long it was loaded and used immediately. I left one loaded overnight and complete fail. Tried the same with brass case leaving it unloaded over night and it was fine. I still have it sitting in a bin, not going to use it and am not going to sell it. I still haven't contacted Surefire to see what they wanted to do about it. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:53:20 PM EDT
[#40]
I've only run both a few times through my MG FNC, either worked with steel case ammo. Loading the Magpul Drum was a complete PITA and I would rather load a romy steel drum 3 times than the Magpul once.
Most everything works better with brass case... |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 11:27:28 PM EDT
[#41]
No experience with the surefires but so far my limited D60 experience has been great. I don't tend to buy things I wouldn't fully trust that's why I never got a Surefire. I'm not saying I'd take a D60 to combat just yet but after it's been on the market a little longer with no known issues then I surely would. I already trust it a good bit.
Now MagPul just needs to come out with a 80-100 round drum  I know that wouldn't be convenient to carry but for a fixed position it would be great to have a couple 100 round drums loaded up just sitting there as long as they were reliable. I've never had any issues with the AK 75-100 round wind up Chinese/Romanian drums and would trust them. I just wish they made a reliable one for the AK74, and a larger one for the AR. I wouldn't be surprised if MagPul comes out with one in the future, just may be awhile if they do. But if you had an M4 with auto a few 100 round drums might do about as well as a SAW would do in some situations where you didn't shoot it enough to need a barrel change.
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Posted: 3/2/2017 7:32:32 AM EDT
[#42]
That's weird. I got two Surefire 60 that works with steel ammo.
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Posted: 3/6/2017 12:26:25 AM EDT
[#43]
I have 2 surefire 60s that has never given me any issues. I only used brass ammo.
maybe I just got lucky. |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 8:28:45 PM EDT
[#44]
I owned 2 Surefire 60's and neither was reliable, even with clean, meticulously loaded, brass cased ammo. I sold them both a while ago. I currently have one D60 and so far it has been reliable, but I've only filled and fired it twice.
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Posted: 3/20/2017 11:33:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Well, I now own one of each. I've shot maybe 2 mag fulls through the SF, but haven't shot the D60 yet.
I shot brass cased out of the SF and even ran it in a 7" pistol and it ran 100%. I don't recall it even being hard to load. I just bought the Delta six zero last week. Came home and loaded it... Absolute pain in the ass! First of all the lever required a LOT of pressure to load. Then the loading gate thingy, I kinda try to hold onto the tower to stabilize the mag while cranking on the lever, when I try to stick a round in the loading gate has a piece that, for some reason, has to flip out the side, so I have to remember to hold my hand just so so as not to block it. Thumb was very sorry after loading it. Unless it magically gets easier to load I won't be buying any more d60s. I still haven't even shot it yet. I also own 3 mwg ninetyrounders and 2 Korean beta clones. They are all easy to load with the included tool. The mwgs are 100% and I've had one for over ten years and left it loaded for over a year at a time. The Korean drums, one has ran 100% for a couple years, the second one I bought has been shit. I loaded it and let it sit for a month or so and went to shoot it and the feed tower had spread so bad that I couldn't get it in the gun. The rounds were literally side by side in the tower. I managed to strip some rounds out and jam it into my lower and shoot it. No jams. Need to test it more. I also own a bunch of magpul 40s. I use them as "contact mags" (a term a heard about guys in 'nam who welded an AK mag onto a m16 mag tower, first high cap mags. They called them "contact mags" because you want more capacity when you make contact with the enemy) in other words it is the one mag that keep at the ready in my rifle. I do not find them unwieldy at all and they are a pleasure to load. That is the largest real world mag I think I'd use outside of bumpfire fun. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:49:16 AM EDT
[#46]
My humble sample of one surefire 60 has been flawless through about 12 full cycles and many more partial loadings I don't shoot steel cases
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Posted: 3/28/2017 1:57:22 PM EDT
[#47]
I'm very interested in the D60 and this thread has me looking at videos on 'how to bump fire'.
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Posted: 3/29/2017 6:36:38 PM EDT
[#48]
I have nothing but bad experience with the surefires and nothing but good experiences with the D60. That being said, at classes or if I knew the possibility existed that I would need to use them socially I would go with USGI or Pmag 30s.
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Posted: 4/1/2017 10:17:58 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I may be a outlier, but I've had zero issues with my Surefire 60rd. It maybe has 2,400 rounds through it. |
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Posted: 4/3/2017 6:17:17 PM EDT
[#50]
My SF60 has been 100%. I hear they will not run steel and that early ones had a few problems. Mine have been great. IDK i prefer the way the SF sits on the belt. The drums always feel to wide.
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