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Posted: 8/19/2016 6:51:12 PM EDT
[#1]
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Comparing a choosing on a metal and how that choosing holds up over time is not the same as having testing on a chemical level that shows that a particular radiation or chemical will not react with a plastic. Acid s a good example, if it reacts with your substance it will do damage. If it doesn't, you could leave it in the acid forever and nothing will happen. That said, I do agree with your sentiment that we as people are not perfect and therefore can not anticipate everything. But there have been plenty of plastic in guns for decades and they ate doing just fine, and those plastics ate vastly inferior to some of the modern polymers. As stated before, this isn't a sales pitch. I was you guys to buy whichever mags you have the most confidence in. I am just trying to educate on what is and is not true with regards to plastics. |
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Posted: 8/19/2016 6:52:17 PM EDT
[#2]
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Super-cool. Just out of curiosity, when did you make the change? I ask as I'd like to pick-up a few and would prefer to get the newer clearer ones rather than getting some "old new stock" darker ones. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As much as I love the USGI surefeed mags (cheap and nice for clone build pictures) my main load outs are only ETS mags currently. Love how strong they are and the followers are slick as can be. I only wish they were more transparent :D We have listened to customer feedback and we have lightened them up some... Super-cool. Just out of curiosity, when did you make the change? I ask as I'd like to pick-up a few and would prefer to get the newer clearer ones rather than getting some "old new stock" darker ones. It has been recently. Like the last month and a half. |
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Posted: 8/19/2016 7:56:31 PM EDT
[#3]
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My forever mags wouldn't rely on metal bonded to plastic. ha exactly, my forever mags are steel England/Singapore 30s... I don't get it. Maybe its due to living in Texas and Arizona and the related heat nearly my entire life, but dealing with home and automotive repairs has taught me there is no such thing as a forever plastic. And I am not talking about parts from the 1940s either. Maybe some of you guys need to get out more because I cannot believe I am the only guy to frequently come across brittle plastics made in the last 20 years. and as far as being concerned about followers, well there are a few things a 3D printing machine can adequately reproduce and followers is one of them. |
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Posted: 8/19/2016 8:24:47 PM EDT
[#4]
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ha exactly, my forever mags are steel England/Singapore 30s... I don't get it. Maybe its due to living in Texas and Arizona and the related heat nearly my entire life, but dealing with home and automotive repairs has taught me there is no such thing as a forever plastic. And I am not talking about parts from the 1940s either. Maybe some of you guys need to get out more because I cannot believe I am the only guy to frequently come across brittle plastics made in the last 20 years. and as far as being concerned about followers, well there are a few things a 3D printing machine can adequately reproduce and followers is one of them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My forever mags wouldn't rely on metal bonded to plastic. ha exactly, my forever mags are steel England/Singapore 30s... I don't get it. Maybe its due to living in Texas and Arizona and the related heat nearly my entire life, but dealing with home and automotive repairs has taught me there is no such thing as a forever plastic. And I am not talking about parts from the 1940s either. Maybe some of you guys need to get out more because I cannot believe I am the only guy to frequently come across brittle plastics made in the last 20 years. and as far as being concerned about followers, well there are a few things a 3D printing machine can adequately reproduce and followers is one of them. The plastics you refer to are not in the same league as what we are talking about. For sun and heat think about this, the tests we conducted for UV exposed the mags to levels roughly 3 times that of anywhere on earth. 24 hours a day for 416 days straight. If you average 12 hours a day of sun that test exposed the plastic to the equivalent of almost 7 years worth of harsh everyday sun exposure. And the thermal test where we went to over 350*F 10,000 times is like heating it up everyday for 27 years. There is a thread in general discussion going on right now with a bunch of mags being left out all summer in AZ. Contrary to popular belief, there are several plastics that are absolutely unaffected by the solar UV radiation. And there are plenty more that get absolutely destroyed by it. It's all about getting the right tool for the right job. |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 10:47:02 AM EDT
[#5]
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 11:24:16 AM EDT
[#6]
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Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure 
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 11:53:35 AM EDT
[#7]
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Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. I would have figured galvanized would last longer in any situation. The system he is referring to is a dry system which I believe has compressed air in it most of the time and only water when tripped. The initial testing showed one superior for 20 yrs. but after 20 yrs. the other was better. I would still assume galvanize would corrode less either way. I have seen those wood supply pipes. There is one on display in the Ft. Dix museum that lasted something like 120 years! |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 11:59:53 AM EDT
[#8]
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I would have figured galvanized would last longer in any situation. The system he is referring to is a dry system which I believe has compressed air in it most of the time and only water when tripped. The initial testing showed one superior for 20 yrs. but after 20 yrs. the other was better. I would still assume galvanize would corrode less either way. I have seen those wood supply pipes. There is one on display in the Ft. Dix museum that lasted something like 120 years! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. I would have figured galvanized would last longer in any situation. The system he is referring to is a dry system which I believe has compressed air in it most of the time and only water when tripped. The initial testing showed one superior for 20 yrs. but after 20 yrs. the other was better. I would still assume galvanize would corrode less either way. I have seen those wood supply pipes. There is one on display in the Ft. Dix museum that lasted something like 120 years! Typically you do not use galvanized for compressed air as galvanized coating tends to flake off. Most modern fire systems use plastic piping. Some smaller towns up west here still have wood piping in use. When they upgrade the wood still looks new. Wooden AR mags? 
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Posted: 8/20/2016 12:49:05 PM EDT
[#9]
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Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. Dry sprinkler systems aren't full of water though. |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 1:38:47 PM EDT
[#10]
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Dry sprinkler systems aren't full of water though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. Dry sprinkler systems aren't full of water though. Yeah, odd that dry galvanized pipe would carrode. |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 7:53:29 PM EDT
[#11]
I have mostly Pmags. But last month or so DSG had the ETS translucent smoke mags for $13.79 each. I figured it'd be nice to try a few. So I ordered 10. They look nice. The feed lips seemed to "flex" quite a bit while I loaded ammo. I did not use a mag charger. Just one at a time by hand. Didn't notice the flexing until the last few rounds once there was substantial ammo/spring pressure in the mag. But, once past the feed lips they seem okay and seemingly hold ammo fine. Hopefully it's a nonissue since the bolt strips the round horizontally, not flexing the feed lips as during the loading process. I'm not overly concerned, but it would sure suck if a problem develops. I know our site ETS guy says they have a lifetime warranty. But ETS most likely won't be handy with a bag of loaded mags if you're in deep shit. I keep a rifle bag with 6 loaded mags in the vehicle at all times. To supplement whatever side arm I'm carrying. I guess time will build confidence. I don't think there will ever truly be a forever mag. We've been building automobiles since Karl Benz started production in 1888. Almost 130 years and and we still can't build a car that won't rust out after 5 or 10 years of Midwestern winters. Just saying that time tested/proven materials and designs historically make way to new generations with innovative designs and materials. Some of which stand the test of time, and others turn out to be a clusterfuck. New generations of engineers and designers want to make the better mousetrap. Given the right conditions and variables, almost anything can fail. And, conversely, given proper maintenance and care, lots of things can last indefinitely. Most likely it comes down to what works best for you and what you prefer. "Paper or plastic."
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Posted: 8/20/2016 8:43:13 PM EDT
[#12]
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Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. How about stainless steel? |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 9:12:14 PM EDT
[#13]
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How about stainless steel? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. How about stainless steel? I think that would solve the corrosion problem but I also think it would be cost prohibitive. |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 10:42:10 PM EDT
[#14]
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I think that would solve the corrosion problem but I also think it would be cost prohibitive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm a fire protection engineer. Our profession has used galvanized pipping for decades for dry sprinkler systems and corrosive areas. All the testing showed that galvanized piping was much more resistant to corrosion than black steel pipe. And then many of these pipes started failing. DOD no longer allows use of galvanized piping for dry systems. Turns out, what the testing didn't show, was that galvanized piping is only superior for the first 20 years. After that, it quickly begins to degrade and is worse than black steel pipe. So the idea that your test of 1 year shows what is going to happen in 50 years, I don't buy it. You have no clue how your product is going to hold up in 50 years, until it has been around for 50 years. Good point. In other words you don't know until you know. Nothing proves how well something will last like actual time. Lots of companies that made fake slate roofs in the 90s are long out of business. I wonder what happened to their 50 year warrantee??? So galvanized pipe corrodes faster than black iron??? Wow who could have figured that one out??? Well yeah. Black iron was made for natural gas or compressed air. Galvanized pipe for liquid. Of course the metal with liquid in it 24/7 will corrode faster than pipe with Air. How is that a comparison? The oldest piping I have seen hold up the longest is made of wood. Go figure
As far as forever mags. Make mine Aluminum. How about stainless steel? I think that would solve the corrosion problem but I also think it would be cost prohibitive. I have a couple. C-products made them. I'm not sure if ASC does too. They are painted and have been reliable in range use. But that's far from conclusive. I've got all of the brands mentioned in this thread except the TangoDown. Hedge your bets. 
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Posted: 8/20/2016 11:12:11 PM EDT
[#15]
A member who did quite a bit of destruction testing of mags (87GN) came to the conclusion that steel magazines were more susceptible to damage than standard U.S. G. I. aluminum magazines.
He tested quite a few to destruction including C Products Stainless Mags. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 8:04:43 AM EDT
[#16]
No such thing as a forever mag. That is like saying - what is your "forever set of car tires".
Diversity is the answer. I have Okay Surefeed USGI, PMAG M2, and Lancer L5AWM. ETA: - Plastic can degrade (chemical, UV, time) - Aluminum can deform (soft metal) - Steel can rust, deform (although harder to do) and is heavy Don't get romantic about your mags OP - they are wear items. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 7:42:25 PM EDT
[#17]
I have always viewed mags a temporary as intended. I do have some black follower
 USGI mags that still run flawlessly.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 7:52:22 PM EDT
[#18]
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Yeah, odd that dry galvanized pipe would carrode. It shouldn't be though. Galvanized steel provides corrosion resistance not corrosion proofing. The corrosion rate of Zinc is very low, but it is not 0 and not all water is the same. Different dissolved solute, different pH, different dissolved gases, etc all affect how well galvanizing works and for how long (and the actual galvanize application and materials of course). Someone mentioned stainless steel, even stainless steel is not immune to corrosion or rusting. It is simply highly resistant depending on the alloy and the environment (remember galvanic corrosion is an issue as well that people tend to forget about including shipbuilders and the navy https://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilder-blames-navy-as-brand-new-warship-disintegrates/). Particularly, things that have Cl- present in them (sodium hypochlorite for example) are highly corrosive to stainless and when the chromium oxide layer is damaged on stainless or the local chromium content drops below 10% (IIRC) then rusting can begin. I guess the point is, there is literally no forever material. Every material has benefit and weakness....and they all eventually fail. If it was me, I'd just buy a bunch of whatever I liked and vacuum pack or inert them if I was really concerned. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 12:10:55 AM EDT
[#19]
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That's the only thing we have to compare it to. We won't know how 2000s polymer holds up for 100 years until the 2100s. Agreed about the followers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wouldn't use a material that degrades over time as a forever magazines. Metal parts taken care of are known for a fact to last hundreds of years. Plastics might, but also seen plenty of WW2 plastics in rough shape. But don't most if not all USGI mags come with plastic followers these days? That'll be a sad state of events when the grandkids have boxes of perfectly good magazine bodies, springs, baseplates, but degraded broken followers... Also, not sure if comparing 1940s plastics to modern day polymers is a fair comparison. That's the only thing we have to compare it to. We won't know how 2000s polymer holds up for 100 years until the 2100s. Agreed about the followers. We have lots of info on plastics and polymers since WWII. To say that we don't have reliable data for polymers made today is not really accurate. I have no less faith in my poly mags, but to each his own. We have almost 40 years of service on Glocks at this point. I'm not seeing a lot of threads about original mags suddenly falling apart. |
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Posted: 8/25/2016 5:12:11 PM EDT
[#20]
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We have lots of info on plastics and polymers since WWII. To say that we don't have reliable data for polymers made today is not really accurate. I have no less faith in my poly mags, but to each his own. We have almost 40 years of service on Glocks at this point. I'm not seeing a lot of threads about original mags suddenly falling apart. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wouldn't use a material that degrades over time as a forever magazines. Metal parts taken care of are known for a fact to last hundreds of years. Plastics might, but also seen plenty of WW2 plastics in rough shape. But don't most if not all USGI mags come with plastic followers these days? That'll be a sad state of events when the grandkids have boxes of perfectly good magazine bodies, springs, baseplates, but degraded broken followers... Also, not sure if comparing 1940s plastics to modern day polymers is a fair comparison. That's the only thing we have to compare it to. We won't know how 2000s polymer holds up for 100 years until the 2100s. Agreed about the followers. We have lots of info on plastics and polymers since WWII. To say that we don't have reliable data for polymers made today is not really accurate. I have no less faith in my poly mags, but to each his own. We have almost 40 years of service on Glocks at this point. I'm not seeing a lot of threads about original mags suddenly falling apart. Yes we do have data, many of those plastics have not aged well at all! |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 6:33:32 AM EDT
[#21]
The pistol grips, handguards and stocks kicking around since the 60s seem to be doing ok.
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Posted: 8/26/2016 7:57:50 AM EDT
[#22]
If a $10.00 Pmag Gen 2 lasts 10 years with use, why would I complain ? What are the realistic expectations for any magazine
that costs the same as much as a six pack of Bass Pale Ale ? |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 9:45:37 AM EDT
[#23]
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If a $10.00 Pmag Gen 2 lasts 10 years with use, why would I complain ? What are the realistic expectations for any magazine that costs the same as much as a six pack of Bass Pale Ale ? Do you plan on being able to buy new 30s in ten years. You have more faith in the direction of American politics than I do. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:05:30 AM EDT
[#24]
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Yeah, I've noticed it doesn't work well on Glock mags too. They're always falling apart... Because you can't use metal and plastic on a magazine and expect it to be durable and reliable... /sarc Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My forever mags wouldn't rely on metal bonded to plastic. Yeah, I've noticed it doesn't work well on Glock mags too. They're always falling apart... Because you can't use metal and plastic on a magazine and expect it to be durable and reliable... /sarc Uh, I've seen a few that "delaminated". We think Glock's last forever but in honesty, they've only been in wide circulation for about 25 years. I've seen several cracked Glock frames on guns that were not "hard use" guns- had one myself where a chunk fell out of the mag well- would the gun still work? Sure, but it doesn't give you warm and fuzzies.....When we have Glocks that have been around over 100 years THEN we can talk about "forever". |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 10:08:50 AM EDT
[#25]
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Sound like a lot of fuss about nothing. What was used in WW2 that was made out of plastic??? Hardly a fair comparison as I'm sure the technology is light years better now. How many Lancer magazines have fallen apart yet? Since the 70s I've been hearing about how plastic in garbage will destroy the Earth because it doesn't degrade. Those 6 pack ring things last forever, why wont a plastic magazine or follower also last forever? Wrong. Plastic Eating Bacteria Found |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 2:45:54 PM EDT
[#26]
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Yes we do have data, many of those plastics have not aged well at all! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wouldn't use a material that degrades over time as a forever magazines. Metal parts taken care of are known for a fact to last hundreds of years. Plastics might, but also seen plenty of WW2 plastics in rough shape. But don't most if not all USGI mags come with plastic followers these days? That'll be a sad state of events when the grandkids have boxes of perfectly good magazine bodies, springs, baseplates, but degraded broken followers... Also, not sure if comparing 1940s plastics to modern day polymers is a fair comparison. That's the only thing we have to compare it to. We won't know how 2000s polymer holds up for 100 years until the 2100s. Agreed about the followers. We have lots of info on plastics and polymers since WWII. To say that we don't have reliable data for polymers made today is not really accurate. I have no less faith in my poly mags, but to each his own. We have almost 40 years of service on Glocks at this point. I'm not seeing a lot of threads about original mags suddenly falling apart. Yes we do have data, many of those plastics have not aged well at all! Many, but not all. Many steels also do not weather well if left in the elements, therefore no steels will last, right? Anecdotal information about some polymers not aging well has no bearing on the specific polymers being used. The "not enough data" argument is weak, at best. I think we should all switch to muzzle loaders because they are the only design that we have a long enough data set on to determine reliability. Also, there seems to be a lot of interchanging of the words "plastic" and "polymer" not all polymers are plastics. Maybe all of these mags are, I honestly don't know, but I think that we should not be blanketing them all as plastics. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 9:49:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Mags are disposable. That said, I'm a magpul guy. And I have Lancer AWMs
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Posted: 9/9/2016 4:35:11 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 9/9/2016 7:45:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Many, but not all. Many steels also do not weather well if left in the elements, therefore no steels will last, right? Anecdotal information about some polymers not aging well has no bearing on the specific polymers being used. The "not enough data" argument is weak, at best. I think we should all switch to muzzle loaders because they are the only design that we have a long enough data set on to determine reliability. Also, there seems to be a lot of interchanging of the words "plastic" and "polymer" not all polymers are plastics. Maybe all of these mags are, I honestly don't know, but I think that we should not be blanketing them all as plastics. You stated we have lots of information on polymers. I state that much of that information is negative. You seem to agree that the data on polymers is mixed, so I don't understand how you can say the data supports long term durability. If oiling steel didn't prevent corrosion, your point would make sense. But since there are easy methods to prevent steel from corroding I don't understand the comparison.... Pretty sure magpul uses Nylon 6 which is a plastic. You won't find them use that word on any of their marketing however. I wonder why? Don't know about the others, but my guess would be a nylon or zytel based plastic. |
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Posted: 9/10/2016 9:36:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You stated we have lots of information on polymers. I state that much of that information is negative. You seem to agree that the data on polymers is mixed, so I don't understand how you can say the data supports long term durability. If oiling steel didn't prevent corrosion, your point would make sense. But since there are easy methods to prevent steel from corroding I don't understand the comparison.... Pretty sure magpul uses Nylon 6 which is a plastic. You won't find them use that word on any of their marketing however. I wonder why? Don't know about the others, but my guess would be a nylon or zytel based plastic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Many, but not all. Many steels also do not weather well if left in the elements, therefore no steels will last, right? Anecdotal information about some polymers not aging well has no bearing on the specific polymers being used. The "not enough data" argument is weak, at best. I think we should all switch to muzzle loaders because they are the only design that we have a long enough data set on to determine reliability. Also, there seems to be a lot of interchanging of the words "plastic" and "polymer" not all polymers are plastics. Maybe all of these mags are, I honestly don't know, but I think that we should not be blanketing them all as plastics. You stated we have lots of information on polymers. I state that much of that information is negative. You seem to agree that the data on polymers is mixed, so I don't understand how you can say the data supports long term durability. If oiling steel didn't prevent corrosion, your point would make sense. But since there are easy methods to prevent steel from corroding I don't understand the comparison.... Pretty sure magpul uses Nylon 6 which is a plastic. You won't find them use that word on any of their marketing however. I wonder why? Don't know about the others, but my guess would be a nylon or zytel based plastic. No, I think you missed the point. Your argument is called an appeal to probability, and it's a logical fallacy. There is lots of good data on how to care for steel and lots of good data on long-lasting steel that doesn't need preventative maintenance. Just as there is lots of data on polymers and plastics, including which ones need care and which ones may be suitable for specific applications. Just because a lot of bad plastics exist doesn't mean that all plastics or all polymers are bad. As another example: You only see a handful of aluminum alloys used in AR receivers. In the case of other alloys, they may not be suited for the AR. That doesn't make all alloys unsuitable for the AR, it makes the unsuitable ones... unsuitable. |
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Posted: 9/10/2016 7:24:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I think you missed the point. Your argument is called an appeal to probability, and it's a logical fallacy. There is lots of good data on how to care for steel and lots of good data on long-lasting steel that doesn't need preventative maintenance. Just as there is lots of data on polymers and plastics, including which ones need care and which ones may be suitable for specific applications. Just because a lot of bad plastics exist doesn't mean that all plastics or all polymers are bad. As another example: You only see a handful of aluminum alloys used in AR receivers. In the case of other alloys, they may not be suited for the AR. That doesn't make all alloys unsuitable for the AR, it makes the unsuitable ones... unsuitable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Many, but not all. Many steels also do not weather well if left in the elements, therefore no steels will last, right? Anecdotal information about some polymers not aging well has no bearing on the specific polymers being used. The "not enough data" argument is weak, at best. I think we should all switch to muzzle loaders because they are the only design that we have a long enough data set on to determine reliability. Also, there seems to be a lot of interchanging of the words "plastic" and "polymer" not all polymers are plastics. Maybe all of these mags are, I honestly don't know, but I think that we should not be blanketing them all as plastics. You stated we have lots of information on polymers. I state that much of that information is negative. You seem to agree that the data on polymers is mixed, so I don't understand how you can say the data supports long term durability. If oiling steel didn't prevent corrosion, your point would make sense. But since there are easy methods to prevent steel from corroding I don't understand the comparison.... Pretty sure magpul uses Nylon 6 which is a plastic. You won't find them use that word on any of their marketing however. I wonder why? Don't know about the others, but my guess would be a nylon or zytel based plastic. No, I think you missed the point. Your argument is called an appeal to probability, and it's a logical fallacy. There is lots of good data on how to care for steel and lots of good data on long-lasting steel that doesn't need preventative maintenance. Just as there is lots of data on polymers and plastics, including which ones need care and which ones may be suitable for specific applications. Just because a lot of bad plastics exist doesn't mean that all plastics or all polymers are bad. As another example: You only see a handful of aluminum alloys used in AR receivers. In the case of other alloys, they may not be suited for the AR. That doesn't make all alloys unsuitable for the AR, it makes the unsuitable ones... unsuitable. I agree with but I think you just argued against your own point. Why are you so confident that the plastic magazines are made out of the "good plastics" when you don't even know what plastics they use? |
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Posted: 9/11/2016 12:50:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree with but I think you just argued against your own point. Why are you so confident that the plastic magazines are made out of the "good plastics" when you don't even know what plastics they use? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Many, but not all. Many steels also do not weather well if left in the elements, therefore no steels will last, right? Anecdotal information about some polymers not aging well has no bearing on the specific polymers being used. The "not enough data" argument is weak, at best. I think we should all switch to muzzle loaders because they are the only design that we have a long enough data set on to determine reliability. Also, there seems to be a lot of interchanging of the words "plastic" and "polymer" not all polymers are plastics. Maybe all of these mags are, I honestly don't know, but I think that we should not be blanketing them all as plastics. You stated we have lots of information on polymers. I state that much of that information is negative. You seem to agree that the data on polymers is mixed, so I don't understand how you can say the data supports long term durability. If oiling steel didn't prevent corrosion, your point would make sense. But since there are easy methods to prevent steel from corroding I don't understand the comparison.... Pretty sure magpul uses Nylon 6 which is a plastic. You won't find them use that word on any of their marketing however. I wonder why? Don't know about the others, but my guess would be a nylon or zytel based plastic. No, I think you missed the point. Your argument is called an appeal to probability, and it's a logical fallacy. There is lots of good data on how to care for steel and lots of good data on long-lasting steel that doesn't need preventative maintenance. Just as there is lots of data on polymers and plastics, including which ones need care and which ones may be suitable for specific applications. Just because a lot of bad plastics exist doesn't mean that all plastics or all polymers are bad. As another example: You only see a handful of aluminum alloys used in AR receivers. In the case of other alloys, they may not be suited for the AR. That doesn't make all alloys unsuitable for the AR, it makes the unsuitable ones... unsuitable. I agree with but I think you just argued against your own point. Why are you so confident that the plastic magazines are made out of the "good plastics" when you don't even know what plastics they use? I don't feel that I have to know the materials used in all of my products in order to understand the quality of them. Just as you probably don't know what alloy your GI mags are, or what was used on the welds. In this case we both just trust that the materials engineers got it right. That may not be enough for you, and that's fine, but it's enough for me. I guess we'll see who was right in 50 years, if either of us is alive. At least the generation after the Millennials will be able to have a laugh at one of our expenses. |
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Posted: 9/13/2016 12:14:38 AM EDT
[#33]
I have really been happy with my Metal GI mags. I have a nice mix of them, and like one Pmag.
I just prefer the mag to be metal. I think it looks better, and are cheaper than Pmags. (not knocking them just my preference) I have some Center Industry, some OK industry and some PSA ones. I think I like the Centers the best. |
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Posted: 9/19/2016 3:25:40 PM EDT
[#34]
No such thing as a "Forever Mag" in my opinion. They are dispensable items. Use them, abuse them, and then get some more!!!!
Rock out, EKSB |
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Posted: 9/20/2016 10:15:17 PM EDT
[#35]
I sold off a bunch of my GI mags years ago to buy PMAG then realized that metal mags worked just fine and started buying what ever GI mags were cheapest which is usually D&H or OK mags at 8 to 10 dollars a pop. I stopped really caring when I realized that a bunch of my mags were date stamped early-mid 90s and were still going strong after year and years and years of use and abuse. I sold a lot of good mags to get what are also good mags and spend a few dollars more per mag in the process. I remember going to the clothing store on Camp Devil Dog when I was stationed on New River buying 2 or 3 a pay day for 8.50 to 9 dollars a pop and before I knew it I had a rubbermaid container full of them.
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Posted: 9/23/2016 10:33:17 PM EDT
[#36]
USGI 20 rounders with the alloy follower are as close as you can get to "forever" mags.
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Posted: 10/8/2016 11:40:36 AM EDT
[#37]
I have a core of magazines I use for range as well as a bunch that after tested, have been set aside to make sure they aren't worn or damaged thru use. Of the range mage mags I have, all are mixed brand, many are probably 30 years old, no idea of the round count but it is substantial. I have, perhaps, trashed two or three magazines in that 30 years so it seems that even aluminum magazines are pretty tough and long lasting. The only magazine issues I've encountered we some Center Industires magazines that were oversize, would not fit in any of my AR's.
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Posted: 10/8/2016 4:01:26 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USGI 20 rounders with the alloy follower are as close as you can get to "forever" mags. |
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Posted: 10/22/2016 5:55:19 AM EDT
[#39]
I have a CPS2000. It works as well as the day I bought it, 20 years ago. This is a cheap water gun from 1996. I bet the advanced polymers in a pmag or Lancer will last just as long, at least,lol
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Posted: 10/22/2016 8:09:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Ive got some stainless E-landers and ASC that I would consider forever mags. Now that's just for the mag body and normal function not necessarily beating the hell out of them in an abnormal destruction test. But since those are out of stainless and carbon steel will take a better heat treat than stainless my ultimate would have to be the PRI mag, the body uses a waffle pattern stamping so they're more rigid than the traditional rib.
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Posted: 10/22/2016 9:01:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive got some stainless E-landers and ASC that I would consider forever mags. Now that's just for the mag body and normal function not necessarily beating the hell out of them in an abnormal destruction test. But since those are out of stainless and carbon steel will take a better heat treat than stainless my ultimate would have to be the PRI mag, the body uses a waffle pattern stamping so they're more rigid than the traditional rib. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive got some stainless E-landers and ASC that I would consider forever mags. Now that's just for the mag body and normal function not necessarily beating the hell out of them in an abnormal destruction test. But since those are out of stainless and carbon steel will take a better heat treat than stainless my ultimate would have to be the PRI mag, the body uses a waffle pattern stamping so they're more rigid than the traditional rib. To quote myself from earlier in this thread... Quoted:
A member who did quite a bit of destruction testing of mags (87GN) came to the conclusion that steel magazines were more susceptible to damage than standard U.S. G. I. aluminum magazines. He tested quite a few to destruction including C Products Stainless Mags. Steel magazines aren't the answer, the U.S. Military tried that with the so called "High Reliability" HK steel magazines. They quickly changed back to the standard aluminum mags. |
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Posted: 10/22/2016 10:00:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To quote myself from earlier in this thread... Steel magazines aren't the answer, the U.S. Military tried that with the so called "High Reliability" HK steel magazines. They quickly changed back to the standard aluminum mags. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ive got some stainless E-landers and ASC that I would consider forever mags. Now that's just for the mag body and normal function not necessarily beating the hell out of them in an abnormal destruction test. But since those are out of stainless and carbon steel will take a better heat treat than stainless my ultimate would have to be the PRI mag, the body uses a waffle pattern stamping so they're more rigid than the traditional rib. To quote myself from earlier in this thread... Quoted:
A member who did quite a bit of destruction testing of mags (87GN) came to the conclusion that steel magazines were more susceptible to damage than standard U.S. G. I. aluminum magazines. He tested quite a few to destruction including C Products Stainless Mags. Steel magazines aren't the answer, the U.S. Military tried that with the so called "High Reliability" HK steel magazines. They quickly changed back to the standard aluminum mags. Did you just quote a destruction test? Im referring to normal everyday citizens leaving their mags loaded in hot and cold temps, being stepped on and using bullets like m855 cycling through the body over time, normal stuff like that NOT seeing what the mag can take til its destroyed. I think the Lancer L5 is the best hard use mag right now but when it comes to my normal everyday life and say after 20 years of being in use and left in my truck...well I'm not going to pick a piece of 20 year old plastic when I have a steel mag which at most will need a new spring. Id push the L5 for everyone to use if we were all able to buy replacements in the future. And that is where I think the steel mags have the upper hand. Do you think people are buying up all these mags right now as disposable items or because they are scared that they may never have a chance at them again? Believe me if it wasn't for George W., Id still have to be shooting all my mags from '92. I also think its nice that manufactures say that they will replace your mags if there is any troubles but say if its someone in California, New York or New Jersey will they get a replacement 30 rnd mag today, right now? The Dems are keen to the grandfathering clause, case in point |
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Posted: 10/23/2016 2:02:18 PM EDT
[#43]
I bought a bunch of HK mags to keep as forever mags, and left them in the bags. They're still in the bags, and now the bags have rust smears on the INSIDE of them.
Steel mags. Hmmmm. |
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Posted: 10/24/2016 12:26:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Sorry I don't feel steel/aluminum mags are as good as let's say ETS or the pmag. As far as sitting around steel will rust unless it's kept in perfect conditions. Aluminum is better but they have plastic followers so in the same boat as the pmags.
As far as use, aluminum mags get dinged up easier and that can effect how they work. Nothing last forever. If I'm picking mags I have to count on for a long time it'll be pmag, ETS, lancer. |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 8:04:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USGI 20 rounders with the alloy follower are as close as you can get to "forever" mags. I'm not sure about everyone's definition of "forever", but I still have about a dozen USGI 20 round mags with alloy followers. They are at best early '80's and likely mid to late '70's vintage. I have refinished a few and replace all with new springs. Feed lips are all excellent and they are used routinely as my "bench" mags; not bad for close to 50 years old. I'm more than comfortable with quality polymer/nylon magazines. I have my fair share of Magpul and Lancer which are my preference, ETS is another option as I've been quite impressed with their Glock magazines. If these "plastic" magazines last 50 years, that is pretty much a "forever" mag for most shooters in their 20's. I'm pretty sure my (almost 18 year old) son will be using those 20 round USGI mags, standard USGI mags and the "plastic" magazines for the next 30-40 years. Yeah, magazines are expendable (especially duty mags), but most civilians do see them as a somewhat long-term investment and most likely will take care of them. I will say I'm a lot less concerned when doing combat reloads with plastic magazines. If they fail, it's likely catastrophic and easily noticed; however, slight dents can go unnoticed and could lead to feeding problems down the road and inopportune times. I have my share of aluminum, steel and plastic...time will tell, but my "forever" is likely only 45-50 more years. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 11/11/2016 12:01:18 PM EDT
[#46]
I prefer Lancers for the same reasons. Pricey though.
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Posted: 11/12/2016 4:41:11 PM EDT
[#47]
I have probably 100+ aluminum mags, most are no older than 20 years with half being 2 years old, mostly D&H and "OKAY". Probably 10 pre-1990 mags. 40 or so Magpul's Gen 2/3, 10 or so TangoDown MK2, 2 "Amend2". Thanks to ETS post, I just ordered 5 of their mags (non coupling, maybe more down the road). Not a mag brag, since some make my little collection look like a couple of pennies in a jar. But I figure I have enough mags that at least some will remain functional in 50 years. Besides, I consider mags disposable as others do. And if I somehow make it that long, I'll be over 100 and I doubt I'll be in any shape to hump through the woods with my 50 y.o. mags, and report back on it at ARFCOM
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