You're stretching.

Steel deforms if you stress it past its yield strength. Plastic breaks when you stress it past its UTS. What you should have learned here is that it's rather easy to stress a PMAG's spine past its UTS. However the stress from repeated drops and crushing (by driving over them) was not sufficient to yield the steel feed lips on AWMs enough to pose feeding problems.

Not sure about you but in my 15 years in quality/reliability engineering, I would consider a mag that sporadically spit out its rounds to "fail first" before a mag that continues to feed reliably, drop free, and otherwise work exactly as intended.

My comment is entirely focused on feeding the rifle, nothing else.


I know its a stretch but it could happen. The pmag is spitting our so many rounds when dropped that there isn't much weight there to further crack it, so if the lancer continues to bend inward its possible it might fail. It looks like its not sustaining anymore damage because its losing all its weight.

Now if the mags spitting out all the rounds when dropped were refilled before every drop then they would obviously break faster.

When I first saw the picture of the crack in the PMAG, I immediately thought, "He needs to drill a relief hole at the end of that crack."  I wonder how that would have affected its performance going forward...

That actually should work!  But, in my opinion, the only maintenance to do to a cracked magazine is to discard it.  They're cheap, and no way would I trust a cracked magazine for further service, once I had chance to actually do maintenance to it.  In the field, well, they work, so long as they're in the mag-well; which as someone noted, holds the sides together enough for the magazine to function.

Well it doesn't look like anything is happening.

But I'll pull them out tonight and see...

I've got a healthy mix of Lancer AWMs and PMAGs.   Both are leagues above the standard GI aluminum mags I own (some of which are so bad that I use them to practice clearing random malfunctions)  I've seen multiple tests like this on the internet, and the Lancer AWM always seems to win in the drop test.  

Thanks for spending the time and money testing these mags, OP.    This is an excellent writeup.   Maybe I'll test the new M3's when they come out and post it.

In for updates!

"Unscientific" testing is better than no testing or advertising hands down.

Cause and effect is a valid and "scientific" method of reaching a conclusion.

If anyone has any "scientiific" testing I've been looking for it for years but it doesn't seem to exist or is secret or most likely both(claims to exist but doesn't)

"Field testing" or "combat testing" is as bad or worse than "unscientific "testing.

All buzz words designed to cloud the real issue.....

Ok, mags still sitting on the deck, sat all day in PB Blaster.


Nothing cool floating.



Here is how I'm going to do this...

Pull the mag out of the PB, nothing changed on the Troy mag.


Spray the mag off with NON-chlorinated brakleen.


Stand magazine up to dry.


The TangoDown mag.




TangoDown, no change.



Pmag.


Pmag, no change.



Lancer.


Lancer, very interesting, the PB took all the rust off. Otherwise no change.





Tapco mag.


Tapco mag no change.



Tan GI mag.


Tan GI mag, no change.



Green GI mag.


Green GI mag, no change.



So much for PB blaster being bad for plastics.







But with all the brakleen the poor mags got a little chilly.



So lets warm them up.


One mag per heater.


All bagged up.


Do not over fill...


Starting to get warm.


Oh yeah, we're cooking with water baby!


I'll let them sit for a while and see what happens...

Fuggin A.

Well they all peaked at about 180-190 degrees.

Then I walked away for a while and when I came back they started to cool down already.

Troy.


TangoDown.


Pmag.


Lancer.


Tapco.


Tan GI.


Green GI.



Going out to dinner, I finally found "or something" to lean these up against.


I'll just leave them here and see what they look like tomorrow.

eta-spelling

I really enjoy testing like this. It removes the bias of manufacturer's tests.  
Break Free Powder Blast is supposedly hard on plastic.  I know it took the finish off the old wood bench I was using to clean

Great post OP, thanks for sharing!

All tucked in for the night.

Not exactly sure what gas the reaction gives off, but we will see if it does anything to the magazines.




And DrDrake, I have hillbilly rigged a drop test contraption, maybe not what you are expecting, but it will be fun.

I'll be using it Friday, it involves this...  


(5.56 shown for scale)

Let me guess. Its not the mag thats getting dropped?

The mags will still be dropped, the plate is to make sure each mag hits the same way.

Friday is going to be fun.  

You've got too much time on your hands...you need to spend more time at home and less on the range...just kidding.  Keep up the good work.  I may have to do some testing on my 60rd surefire mags here as well now that I am inspired.  I still cant decide if the extra weight of the 60rd mag is worth the pain in the wrist every day after mission...

Just when I thought I had no more healthy hetero manlove to give, this thread proves me wrong....

This has been very entertaining to watch, thanks for the time dedication and regular updates OP! Can't wait to see what diabolical thing you do next

Ok, here we go, the mags sat all night and day on the porch.


Stacked up against the rock, they still have the crap water in them.



Troy, nothing noticeable.


TangoDown, nothing noticeable.


Pmag, nothing noticeable.


Lancer, the rust is back on the steel feed lips.


Tapco, nothing noticeable.


Tan GI, nothing noticeable.


Green GI, nothing noticeable.



I stood them on end to help the nasty water drain out, and to help dry them.


The more they dried the more they got almost a white scale on them.



Some mags showed the white more then others, but they all had this "coating" on them.





The more the Lancer sat the more the rust formed.





And the Troy developed almost a "burn" mark in the side of it as the water dried.



Where I dumped the bagged water out it dried white, like it was almost bleached....



So here they all are, standing ready for the next soak.


And the bleach like spots on the rocks gave me an idea, let's try bleach.  


Arranged nicely.


Filling up...






Right away I noticed a sheen on the surface, something got removed from the magazines.


The GI mags do not like the bleach, they instantly started to bubble.




The TangoDown mag also had large bubbles floating out of it.


Even the Tan GI mag was suffering.


The Tan GI mag started to turn brown.  


The lancer does not like the bleach, the rust is starting to grow.



I'll check back in a few hours, I don't know how long I should let these sit...  

eta-correct description of green tan GI mag

All this heat. Put those suckers in some dry ice or freeze them to -20 or so and drop them.

I say use some pool chlorine. It should ruin them all.

+1


Be interesting to see some extreme cold tests.  (esp for those of us in the north)  

Loving this thread, if you PM me your address I can send you an Orlite mag to throw in for the next testing.  I have one that came NIW but I took out of the wrap, haven't used it yet.

HOLY CRAP!    

After only an hour something is happening!


I'm pulling them out right now to see what is going on...

Those GI mags are aluminum, no?

That should react nicely with the bleach. Chemistry is fun.

That certainly looks like Lancer rust floating on the surface.

Wow, that is some nasty stuff...


Almost impossible to find which mag is which.

Troy.


TangoDown.


Pmag.


Lancer, this is why it all turned brown. That sucker was rusting like crazy.




Tapco.


Tan GI, this is the one turning brown, or custom FDE as its called now...  


Green GI.


Wow, funky stuff.


Rinsing them off.


Troy mag, really nothing bad happened that I can see.


TangoDown, seems to be OK, was bubbling pretty bad so something might have happened inside.


Pmag, has some white crusty stuff on the front, but otherwise intact.


Lancer mag, this is why the water turned brown.  Steel doesn't like bleach.






Tapco mag, looks ok.


Tan GI mag, has turned tan.  Like the dry film lube has been discolored.


Green GI mag above the Tan to show the color difference.


Green GI mag is getting some kind of chemical burn on the bottom back of it.


Back in the dishwasher to get all the crap off them.  (Aimless, don't look )



So the moral of this hour long story, is don't bleach your mags.  

Very much this.

 

The white stuff is oxidized magnesium from the flameless ration heater. There's also iron in the FRH. the chlorine is partially reacting with the residue from the FRH.

Please inspect the mag springs, would be interesting to see how much each brand's springs have rusted.

To clear things up...as of today the Tapco mag is as good as the Pmag, yes?

This is a very interesting test. the drop tests especially. It would appear the Lancer mag is probably the mag to have unless you are bleaching them.

I suspect the bleach hasn't been kind to the springs.

That was close, here I thought I wrecked the mags before I could do another test with them.

But luckily I checked on them before letting them sit in bleach all night, they only sat for one hour.

I dish washed them with no soap, then put them in the oven on WARM for an hour to make sure they were completely dry.

Here are the results:

Troy, looks fine outside.


Troy spring is completely rusted, serious rust too.


Rust falls off when the spring is flexed.


Inside the Troy body even has globs of rust.


Troy is also developing a small feed lip crack.





TangoDown mag, looks fine outside.


Can't take it apart but it looks rust free inside.





Pmag, covered with the white scale, as mentioned from the heater, but no new damage to the mag.


Pmag is good inside.


Pmag spring is barely developing little spots of rust.


Pmag is fine inside.


Still cracked at the back, didn't change.



Lancer mag, looks OK besides the rusted feed lips.










Lancer internals were good.


Lancer spring had slight discolorations from rust beginning to form on it.


Tapco mag looked fine outside.


Tapco spring was starting to develop discoloration from rust.


Tapco mag is still cracked at the back.



Tan GI mag, has turned from dark grey to a dry tan color.


Tan GI internals look OK beside the body changing color.


Tan mag spring is developing rust.


Tan GI mag inside is also changed.



Green GI has also lightened in color, but no corrosion serious like I had expected.


Internals look OK.


Green GI spring is developing rust spots and discoloration.


Green GI is also changed inside.



Here they all are, at least I have something to test tomorrow.








I was worried they gave up too early...  

Thanks for the great test.  Let me know if you want some Orlite Mags to accompany the Thermolds.
 

HK mags: Professionals need not apply ;)

Too heavy. Would like to see them all weighed to compare that as well

Exactly what I have been wondering this entire time... I have several HK Maritime AR mags....

Great Thread!

The issues with the unscientific testing are that the sample sizes are small, the controls for repeatability are loose, and although this test shows a great deal about chemical resistivity, extracting the results of the drops and firing tests to larger populations is problematic.

if you do 10 axis drops on each mag, loaded, and also IN THE GUN, with a wire guide to provide as identical of impacts as possible, and also cold and hot––That's where you may see some different results in drops.

Run a sample of mags through a few thousand rounds and document mag related failures.

Do some side impacts.

Although the ambient temp feed lip drop test is revealing of performance in that scenario, there are a lot of other failure modes that need to be considered.  Mags that perform well on the feed lip tests don't always perform well in other metrics, or in the large sample firing tests, or in debris, or in salt spray tests, etc., etc.––The whole package needs to be considered.

The damage possible through actual use and the requirements that we want from a mag are the bottom line, and certain mag designs and materials will excel in focused performance measures.  Getting a mag to do all things well is more difficult.  

If you work in a chemical plant, drop your mags lips down a lot, and only intend to fire about 300 rounds out of the mag, this test is perfect.  :-)  That's in jest, but intended to illustrate that there are a lot of performance metrics to be considered, and that larger sample sizes may show different trends.

So, you have to decide what you want from a magazine, and go from there.  

In the spirit of full disclosure, I previously worked for Brownells, and now I work for Magpul, and I would have that in my sig line or something, but I don't have an industry account set up here.  I've seen a lot of magazines, both aluminum and polymer, destroyed in the name of gathering data, and I've seen hundreds of thousands of rounds fired in function testing.  

So far, everything out there has an achilles heel of some sort and many have strengths in certain attributes.  Pick a mag based on what you desire in traits, but so far, I can assure you that all have some vulnerabilities.  The strengths of the PMAG have been proven in professional use, and the sample size of available data, both scientific and anecdotal, is large.  Other products have strengths––and weaknesses–– as well...and I will not come on and bash someone else's product or show pics of the aftermath of relevant testing to do so.  I have no emotional attachment to the performance of a magazine...and I've seen the various strengths and weaknesses of many available designs under lots of different conditions.

The GenM3 has been designed to address anything that has been perceived as a susceptibility in the MRev PMAG, to retain and improve upon the significant strengths of the MRev PMag, and the reason it has been so delayed, is that we're testing the crap out of it, alongside the original PMAG and others.  When it's time, perhaps we'll share that test data.  

Seriously, guy?  First, as stated, this is not a scientific test.  He's not the Acquisition Corps guy for the Army, he's just doing some informal testing.

If you are disappointed in the testing, feel free to buy a hundred of each mag yourself, and run a thousand rounds through each.  Let us know how it goes.

I'm not disappointed in the testing, just trying to frame things appropriately, that's all.  Let the chips fall where they may.

And I already stated that I've had the benefit of seeing hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing, including actual acceptance testing, which is why I felt it worthwhile to post.  It would be erroneous to extrapolate an overall opinion on any of these mags from limited testing, and that was all I was intending to point out.

Not taking anything from the OPs efforts––I'm enjoying this.  I'm just referencing the relevance in the big picture.

SPQR -476, how long have you worked for magpul?

Since April of this year.  Director of Magpul Dynamics and I do some other things that we may announce shortly.  Chief cook and bottle washer, some days.  

Duane

So why wasn't Magpul complaining about the unscientific "hold my beer while I drive over these mags with my truck" tests which portrayed the mags as being the ultimate mags? All the sudden they are picking apart the minutiae of this test .

I understand the importance of controlled scientific tests. I've done DOE for gov agencies (incl NASA) as well as Industry. They are great if you have a large budget and resources. This test may not be air tight, but it will give you directional results.

But one thing you are right on, choose the characteristics you are after and pay attention to the results. Magpul keeps promoting the chemical resistance of their mag. However you here are downplaying this test unless you "live in a chemical plant". I am less concerned about chemical resistance, I've never accidentally exposed my mags to harsh chemicals. I've also never accidentally drove over them with a car. I have however accidentally dropped them at "ambient temps" and I would imagine this is the most likely abuse that mags would be subjected to. And guess what? PMAGs always seem to perform poorly here, compared to other polymer mags.

 

Drive over all of the mags, use them as a jackstand and clean your brakes. In a SHTF situation this may need to be done.

Thank you for reading my thead.

I wonder how many other companies are watching this unfold and waiting to comment.




Part time dishwasher you say...?   Then this is relevent to your interests.

All excellent ideas...

I wasn't here when the "testing" you are referring to was done, but back then...who else had something comparable?  And if you don't think we've learned a few things about polymer magazine design, manufacture, and testing since then...  

Magpul will always be more "blue jeans" and less "lab coat" in overall personality, but I can assure you that the formal side of the testing is taken seriously, even if it is far more fun to run over stuff with the Unimog.

Yes, the PMAG has great chemical resistance.  It's just that 24 hour immersion in chemicals isn't a likely occurrence, as you state.  It does provide interesting information, though.  There are 9 other axes of drop testing and drop testing in the rifle, plus side impact, etc., considerations, high round count testing, et. al, to consider as well.  If you always drop your loaded magazines on the feedlips repeatedly, and that's the only abuse they see, then yes, feedlip drops outside the gun are the test for you.  

We stand by the MRev (current PMAG) as a phenomenally good performing magazine, and will continue to after the M3 is introduced.  It works, and in testing and actual usage, has proven extremely reliable and durable across a broad selection of performance characteristics.

If WI57 stuffed all the mags with tannerite and shot them, we would all still watch, we would all still be highly entertained, but somehow OP's pics of the collected shrapnel would cause a debate on which one held up the best. At the end of the day, OP is having fun, and we just have the pleasure of going along for the ride in high definition.