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Posted: 3/22/2017 10:42:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Brass expands when fired, steel doesn't. The shape of the 223/5/56 is beneficial to the expansion. The 7.62 x 39 doesn't benefit from the expansion nearly as much thanks to the casing shape.
The bi-metal jacket of the steel cased Wolf will wear the barrel faster than the copper/brass jacketed WG. Some barrels like the bi-metal, some don't. Same as with different brass ammo. All said, none of these are real deal breakers. The barrel wear will offset with the ammo savings. WG is consistent, and seems to be a very good offering. I like it, the rifles like it, the brass is reloadable, the projectiles are brass and canelured so in theory they will fragment. It is one of the better 193 clones. Claimed velocity is WG 3250, Wolf Polyformance 3240. Not sure about the barrel length of the claimed speed. Just like the x39, too many people get caught up with velocity. It should be in proper range, but other than that one speed isn't necessarily better. Lots of options, but in the end, try it to see what your rifle likes. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 6:16:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Didn't know that the steel cased ammo doesn't expand. Any idea how many rounds of the bi-metal bullet Wolf ammo would be needed to be shot to wear the bore out past whatever the bore diameter limits are? Sounds as if this "cheap" ammo is a poor choice to use.
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Posted: 3/24/2017 7:58:47 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds as if this "cheap" ammo is a poor choice to use. Ignorant people perpetuate myths and use correlation vs causation to back up claims. steel case mouths dont seal as well as brass and carbon can build up in some guns-if your worried than use a chamber brush. steal cases don't wear out extractors, bi-metal doesn't wear out bores faster. Shooting speeds has more to do with anything than just the steel jacket. I would bet I've shot more steel case ammo that nearly anyone on this board-and its fine for plinking. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 8:24:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its fine to use. it goes bang and it as accurate as most mil surp. Ignorant people perpetuate myths and use correlation vs causation to back up claims. steel case mouths dont seal as well as brass and carbon can build up in some guns-if your worried than use a chamber brush. steal cases don't wear out extractors, bi-metal doesn't wear out bores faster. Shooting speeds has more to do with anything than just the steel jacket. I would bet I've shot more steel case ammo that nearly anyone on this board-and its fine for plinking. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 9:42:58 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 3/24/2017 10:06:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote Historyneva been done before 
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Posted: 3/24/2017 10:27:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
oh look another correlation vs causation claim neva been done before Quote HistoryQuoted:
oh look another correlation vs causation claim neva been done before |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 10:30:18 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote History |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 10:49:03 AM EDT
[#9]
the cost of even a decent barrel can be saved by only a couple cases of ammo
if you have a rifle with a cheap non lined 1:9 barrel the replacement cost could nearly be saved on one case of ammo but that would require people to actually go out and shoot their ammo hoards 
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Posted: 3/24/2017 10:52:17 AM EDT
[#10]
Just another opinion with a question thrown in!
First, Brass-Steel I don't care as long as it goes bang its good, but I still don't get why Wolf can't add a bit more powder to their 5.56 to bring it up to NATO specs? The recoil of all the Wolf 5.56 I've fired almost feels like I'm shooting squibs. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 2:38:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just another opinion with a question thrown in! First, Brass-Steel I don't care as long as it goes bang its good, but I still don't get why Wolf can't add a bit more powder to their 5.56 to bring it up to NATO specs? The recoil of all the Wolf 5.56 I've fired almost feels like I'm shooting squibs. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 2:50:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome test. Thanks for the link. Are you going to be doing mag dump after mag dump after mag dump? Most don't. So the wear you will see won't be anywhere near what this "test" shows. This "test" is how nonsense gets spread. People take one thing that's done with a specific set of standards and then apply it to everything across the board. A person will be totally fine and will save money using steal vs brass. Might not group as well but that's a given. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 5:43:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Ooooh - I didn't realize Wolf Gold was non-magnetic copper FMJ. I thought it still used the same bi-metal bullets but was just brass cased/boxer primed.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome for what? Clicks? Are you going to be doing mag dump after mag dump after mag dump? Most don't. So the wear you will see won't be anywhere near what this "test" shows. This "test" is how nonsense gets spread. People take one thing that's done with a specific set of standards and then apply it to everything across the board. A person will be totally fine and will save money using steal vs brass. . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome for what? Clicks? Are you going to be doing mag dump after mag dump after mag dump? Most don't. So the wear you will see won't be anywhere near what this "test" shows. This "test" is how nonsense gets spread. People take one thing that's done with a specific set of standards and then apply it to everything across the board. A person will be totally fine and will save money using steal vs brass. . . As I've said, this is my first AR and I've been predominantly an AK shooter. Bi-metal bullets are a non-issue for me as that's what AKs are generally fed. Yes it does wear a barrel faster, but you're talking maybe 15k (20k+ if it's CL/CHF) before it even becomes an issue and maybe a difference of 1-2k between the two? Plus we're talking the bloody AR platform. Barrels are cheap and easy to swap. Wish the same could be said for my AKs. Quoted:
WG is only about 50-60fps below M193 spec. There is no NATO M193 spec btw, just a U.S. one Quoted:Might not group as well but that's a given. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 10:34:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WG is only about 50-60fps below M193 spec. There is no NATO M193 spec btw, just a U.S. one When I alternately load surplus 5.56 (South African, Swiss, Guat, whatever) & wolf I can easily feel the difference when I pull the trigger. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 1:57:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So why does it feel so weak? When I alternately load surplus 5.56 (South African, Swiss, Guat, whatever) & wolf I can easily feel the difference when I pull the trigger. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z7GB6RD4kI Then there's buffman chrono'ing at ~3000 out of a 16": www.youtube.com/watch?v=oip69MeDwz8 Steel-cased polyformance wolf .223 did about ~2950 out of a 16" for buffman: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeFCZ9NQGM And while it wasn't chrono'd, MAC was able to group 1.5moa with it as well: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpo9rknFDkU Buffman did have some 10-year old wolf steel that only did ~2800 though. Maybe older stuff wasn't loaded as hot? Or maybe his degraded? If it did, was it due to time or storage conditions?: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwbv1nY-CZ0 |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:56:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Out of an 18" barrel, I was getting right around ~3,100fps for both. Oddly, WG recoils harder than steel-cased. Definitely more accurate. I've never got better than 3MOA with steel. 2MOA isn't unusual with WG.
I get 3k-4k rounds of steel-cased ammo through my mag dump gun between barrel replacements. If you don't go stupid and shoot until hand guards melt , 5K and beyond is within reach. It's been worth it so far. ~$100 barrels vs. ~$300 saved on ammo. When you consider rock bottom prices: $65 barrels and $0.20/rnd for steel-cased ammo, it makes even more sense. Just have to find deals and stock up 
If it's your only AR, I would stick with brass though. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:58:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its fine to use. it goes bang and it as accurate as most mil surp. Ignorant people perpetuate myths and use correlation vs causation to back up claims. steel case mouths dont seal as well as brass and carbon can build up in some guns-if your worried than use a chamber brush. steal cases don't wear out extractors, bi-metal doesn't wear out bores faster. Shooting speeds has more to do with anything than just the steel jacket. I would bet I've shot more steel case ammo that nearly anyone on this board-and its fine for plinking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sounds as if this "cheap" ammo is a poor choice to use. Ignorant people perpetuate myths and use correlation vs causation to back up claims. steel case mouths dont seal as well as brass and carbon can build up in some guns-if your worried than use a chamber brush. steal cases don't wear out extractors, bi-metal doesn't wear out bores faster. Shooting speeds has more to do with anything than just the steel jacket. I would bet I've shot more steel case ammo that nearly anyone on this board-and its fine for plinking. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 9:00:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the cost of even a decent barrel can be saved by only a couple cases of ammo if you have a rifle with a cheap non lined 1:9 barrel the replacement cost could nearly be saved on one case of ammo but that would require people to actually go out and shoot their ammo hoards |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 9:33:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its fine to use. it goes bang and it as accurate as most mil surp. Ignorant people perpetuate myths and use correlation vs causation to back up claims. steel case mouths dont seal as well as brass and carbon can build up in some guns-if your worried than use a chamber brush. steal cases don't wear out extractors, bi-metal doesn't wear out bores faster. Shooting speeds has more to do with anything than just the steel jacket. I would bet I've shot more steel case ammo that nearly anyone on this board-and its fine for plinking. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 8:35:40 AM EDT
[#20]
I find Gold is just more accurate than Wolf steel.
If you're just ringing steel and shooting in volume, go steel. I prefer Wolf Gold, for me it's noticeably more accurate, and not much more expensive. I used to stockpile xm193 and Wolf steel, now it's all Gold. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:17:18 AM EDT
[#21]
LOL.
Shoot anything you want, it's not going to hurt your rifle. If you're going to be blasting away for fun then you SHOULD be buying Tula or whatever steel cased. It's fine for what it is. Just shoot it. I don't think you can load your own plinking .223 for much cheaper than the steel cased stuff these days. Give the chamber a scrub when you're done and that's it. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:44:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
oh look another correlation vs causation claim neva been done before "correlation vs causation" - so sadly the mantra of the pathetic, intellectually weak minds who don't have any data of their own and don't bother to read articles. |
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Posted: 3/29/2017 4:59:39 PM EDT
[#23]
IMHO... Wolf Steel cased ammo is made with one goal in mind... to be a cheap as possible and still go bang.
If your training distance is within 100yds you'll probably be fine, since its accuracy is good enough for that. As far as accuracy is concerned, My rifles all prefer Wolf Gold, Wolf Gold will ( YMMV ) shoot groups, not tiny match grade groups, but far better then the steel cased ... not the shotgun like patterns that Steel cased Wolf does. So... given the choice, I prefer the better accuracy. Also I am comfortable that the Wolf Gold will perform more like a M193 FMJ bullet when it comes to SD.... the Steel cased ammo, again, uses the cheapest bullet available... most ballistic tests I have seen about Wolf Steel cased FMJ, shows horrible performance... I wouldn't want to be shot by either... but ( LOL ) given the choice between the 2... |
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Posted: 4/9/2017 5:53:42 PM EDT
[#24]
I took a Paul Howe rifle class and shot over 1k of the wolf steel stuff. It's all I could afford by the time I paid for the class. I was ringing steel out to 400 with it while others who were using good brass ammo couldn't. If I'm shooting hogs/steel/paper I'll use it but if I'm shooting anything other than that, quality brass cased ammo.
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Posted: 4/10/2017 7:20:57 AM EDT
[#25]
I use steel a lot for banging away at gongs, rocks on far away hillsides, targets from 1 to 300yds, it is what it is, I don't worry about barrel wear because I don't do mag dumps. I also use brass case reloads and factory brass, the most important thing to remember is not to shoot a lot of steel and then switch to brass, chances are you might stick a case, rip of a rim or if you decide not to shoot the round it'll stick in the chamber. I got to say I like the new zinc plated stuff from tula, seems to shoot a little better groups if that matters when shooting steel. Barrel wear ya, but powder wears out barrels and eats out the chamber area from brass loads just like tula and wolf does.
Want to see barrel wear go to You-tube, barrels shot mag dump after mag dump only go about 400 to 500 rounds. |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 8:06:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh look... someone who runs off at the mouth to trash someone else's article without investing the time and money into producing their own data. "correlation vs causation" - so sadly the mantra of the pathetic, intellectually weak minds who don't have any data of their own and don't bother to read articles. I dont understand the big words so ill just try to make something up |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 10:52:04 AM EDT
[#27]
This is a daily topic, so hashed to death. The reality is these products have nothing to do with each other - other than sharing the name of an import company.
Gold: Brass cased, copper jacketed, accurate, good brass, powerful, reliable. Current the standard of optimized quality to value .223 ammo. Basically what the AR was designed to shoot. Fabricator is an ally of the US, and this is a product that aids in them maintaining their military-industrial-complex for strategic benefit. Steel: Cheap blasting fodder. Steel casing, cheap powder, steel jacketed bullet with poor fragmentation characteristics. Can wear out your gun faster, generally less accurate, generally less effective downrange. Subject to corrosion more than brass is (rusts if poorly stored). Higher rate of fouling. Fabricator is currently threatening to attack the United States, and this is a product sale that aids in them maintaining their military-industrial-complex for their strategic benefit. This ammo never causes jams here in the halls of AR15.com, but jams a shitload pretty much every time I have chance to witness someone use it in the real world at the range and at a competition. Unless you are getting steel for well under 20 cents a shot, don't bother. |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 2:53:58 PM EDT
[#28]
So, what about steel case/bi-metal bullets out of a stainless barrel? Or a stainless match barrel?
Not trying to yank chains, just wondering if the same still applies. I shoot brass/copper with my stainless stuff, just wondering. |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 6:21:19 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, what about steel case/bi-metal bullets out of a stainless barrel? Or a stainless match barrel? Not trying to yank chains, just wondering if the same still applies. I shoot brass/copper with my stainless stuff, just wondering. |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 6:56:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome for what? Clicks? Are you going to be doing mag dump after mag dump after mag dump? Most don't. So the wear you will see won't be anywhere near what this "test" shows. This "test" is how nonsense gets spread. People take one thing that's done with a specific set of standards and then apply it to everything across the board. A person will be totally fine and will save money using steal vs brass. Might not group as well but that's a given. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Awesome test. Thanks for the link. Are you going to be doing mag dump after mag dump after mag dump? Most don't. So the wear you will see won't be anywhere near what this "test" shows. This "test" is how nonsense gets spread. People take one thing that's done with a specific set of standards and then apply it to everything across the board. A person will be totally fine and will save money using steal vs brass. Might not group as well but that's a given. |
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Posted: 4/11/2017 12:20:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Just this past weekend I chroned WG and Some Lake City out of my 16" nitride barrel.
WG--3144fps average with 12fps between low-hi LC--3268fps average with 40fps between low-hi. |
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