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Posted: 11/17/2015 2:43:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Ra556b is the best soft point bb round that is commonly civilian available.
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Posted: 11/18/2015 6:50:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Another thread put me onto Fusion 223 on sale at Palmetto State Armory for $9.99 box. Additionally I found some Federal 6.8SPC 90gr bonded on sale which I picked up some of that as well. So, I am good for now.
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Posted: 11/18/2015 6:58:53 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 11/18/2015 7:16:01 PM EDT
[#4]
i have had good luck with beck ammunition's ra556b clone. uses the same nosler 64gr soft point, runs reliably in both rifles i've tested it in, and is actually slightly hotter than ra556b according to listed velocities
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Posted: 11/18/2015 9:02:34 PM EDT
[#5]
I had read the recommendation to replace M193 FMJ bullets with 55gr frangibles (varmint rounds) for home/personal defense, and, being civilians, we are not beholden to the Geneva Convention. Living in a moderately-dense urban area, I don't expect I'll have much need for M855 ammo (too many houses and trees in the way), but more concerned with individuals who think they have a greater right to my possessions than I do.
Any comments? rusty musket |
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Posted: 11/18/2015 9:32:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had read the recommendation to replace M193 FMJ bullets with 55gr frangibles (varmint rounds) for home/personal defense, and, being civilians, we are not beholden to the Geneva Convention. Living in a moderately-dense urban area, I don't expect I'll have much need for M855 ammo (too many houses and trees in the way), but more concerned with individuals who think they have a greater right to my possessions than I do. Any comments? rusty musket |
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Posted: 11/18/2015 9:36:38 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 11/18/2015 9:41:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote Historyno thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.  |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 12:57:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail. https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Thank you for the pic! That sure doesn't look promising. MSR Fusion is suppose to be almost identical to a Gold Dot, and I've seen plenty of impressive videos and pictures of the bullet's performance in gel at close range. This is the first time I've seen someone done an actual 'testing' at longer distance. I wonder if other bonded bullets will be similar to the MSR Fusion/Gold Dot. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 1:07:50 AM EDT
[#10]
I recently cared for a guy that local pd shot 5 times in the torso with an ar. They were using black hills .223 soft points. Not a single round exited him. He was shot in a living room from 15-20 feet max.
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Posted: 11/19/2015 1:16:36 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail. https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Well that's no good. What was the barrel length? I have used the Fusion extensively for hogs and have had great luck. Most of my kills have been under 100yrds and complete pass throughs. I have also seen lots of posts and pictures with results similar to mine with deer and hogs with engagement distances around 200. I think you can chalk this one up to terminal ballistics not being an exact science. I wouldn't write off the Fusion. It's a great load. However, that being said there a tons of other great loads out there. I like the Fusion because it's cheap, accurate, and at least in my experience reliable. I would lose no sleep switching loads though should a comparable one become cheaper. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 1:31:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had read the recommendation to replace M193 FMJ bullets with 55gr frangibles (varmint rounds) for home/personal defense, and, being civilians, we are not beholden to the Geneva Convention. Living in a moderately-dense urban area, I don't expect I'll have much need for M855 ammo (too many houses and trees in the way), but more concerned with individuals who think they have a greater right to my possessions than I do. Any comments? rusty musket Varmint bullets are designed for.. varmints. Not human sized critters. I would not shoot anything larger than a coyote with a V-Max or varmint grenade. If you can't spend for a bonded load or TSX then stick with 193 for HD. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 8:39:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Mk318 is one of the best barrier blind round out there and it has real combat testing by the marines.
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Posted: 11/19/2015 10:30:13 AM EDT
[#14]
In for more info on the Federal Fusion picture above. Something isn't adding up there.
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Posted: 11/19/2015 10:43:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In for more info on the Federal Fusion picture above. Something isn't adding up there. Agreed, unless it was fired from a 8.5" barrel. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 10:44:33 AM EDT
[#16]
So no one likes my 8125N huh???
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Posted: 11/19/2015 10:50:34 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well that's no good. What was the barrel length? <snip> Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Well that's no good. What was the barrel length? <snip> This. Estimated velocity at time of impact? 170 yards out of a 14.5" will offer totally different performance than out of a 20". I hunt with Fusions in my 14.5" but keep it to bowhunting angles, max 100 yards. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 11:05:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So no one likes my 8125N huh??? It's not bonded, and performs rather poorly compared to other options. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 11:24:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not bonded, and performs rather poorly compared to other options. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So no one likes my 8125N huh??? It's not bonded, and performs rather poorly compared to other options.  |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 12:00:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought because it was barrier it was bonded Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So no one likes my 8125N huh??? It's not bonded, and performs rather poorly compared to other options. No. It's just a cheap SP round loaded to 5.56 pressure. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 12:03:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail. https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg So, OP ask about a defensive round and you disqualify Fed Fusion because it went through BOTH LUNG (on a deer), DID NOT EXIT, AND your intended target was 170 YARDS AWAY. Just, think about that..... |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 12:03:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. It's just a cheap SP round loaded to 5.56 pressure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So no one likes my 8125N huh??? It's not bonded, and performs rather poorly compared to other options. No. It's just a cheap SP round loaded to 5.56 pressure. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 3:58:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, OP ask about a defensive round and you disqualify Fed Fusion because it went through BOTH LUNG (on a deer), DID NOT EXIT, AND your intended target was 170 YARDS AWAY. Just, think about that..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg So, OP ask about a defensive round and you disqualify Fed Fusion because it went through BOTH LUNG (on a deer), DID NOT EXIT, AND your intended target was 170 YARDS AWAY. Just, think about that..... +1 |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 4:15:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mk318 is one of the best barrier blind round out there and it has real combat testing by the marines. Just curious, is it a better Barrier Blind round than MK262? I ask because I have also been looking at both and wonder how they compare in terms of penetration ( 100 yards ) and accuracy a little further out to say around 300 yards? Any opinion ? |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 4:47:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So no one likes my 8125N huh??? This round has always caught my eye. I do like my 8126N, but the 8125 seemed interesting. Why did you go with this over say Hornady 70gr GMX TAP BARRIER 81265 or 55gr 81255? |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 4:52:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This round has always caught my eye. I do like my 8126N, but the 8125 seemed interesting. Why did you go with this over say Hornady 70gr GMX TAP BARRIER 81265 or 55gr 81255? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So no one likes my 8125N huh??? This round has always caught my eye. I do like my 8126N, but the 8125 seemed interesting. Why did you go with this over say Hornady 70gr GMX TAP BARRIER 81265 or 55gr 81255? |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 5:07:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found it in the EE fairly cheap so I picked up a little over 1K of it. It performs well, and the 62 grain bullet matches up with my Acogs BDC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So no one likes my 8125N huh??? This round has always caught my eye. I do like my 8126N, but the 8125 seemed interesting. Why did you go with this over say Hornady 70gr GMX TAP BARRIER 81265 or 55gr 81255? I see. It's good times with all these ammo choices nowadays. 
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Posted: 11/19/2015 9:33:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Nosler 64gr Bonded.
Hunters have used it with success. |
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Posted: 11/19/2015 10:07:00 PM EDT
[#29]
The best Barrier Blind ammo I have used would be Federal LE223T3
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Posted: 11/19/2015 11:04:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail. https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg That 62GR. .223 Fusion bullet shows substandard expansion at just 170yds. and you describe very substandard penetration for my uses even from a 10" barrel. What barrel length were you using? |
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Posted: 11/20/2015 1:10:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That 62GR. .223 Fusion bullet shows substandard expansion at just 170yds. and you describe very substandard penetration for my uses even from a 10" barrel. What barrel length were you using? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg That 62GR. .223 Fusion bullet shows substandard expansion at just 170yds. and you describe very substandard penetration for my uses even from a 10" barrel. What barrel length were you using? Since this is a technical forum, would you care to enlighten us then about what the "standard" threshold distance is for a .223 barrier-blind load expansion? |
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Posted: 11/20/2015 6:37:38 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, OP ask about a defensive round and you disqualify Fed Fusion because it went through BOTH LUNG (on a deer), DID NOT EXIT, AND your intended target was 170 YARDS AWAY. Just, think about that..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail.
https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg So, OP ask about a defensive round and you disqualify Fed Fusion because it went through BOTH LUNG (on a deer), DID NOT EXIT, AND your intended target was 170 YARDS AWAY. Just, think about that..... +1. not to mention the deer died. Otherwise you wouldnt have a recovered. At what point in the animals death did the bullet not do its job? 
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Posted: 11/20/2015 9:17:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Not producing an exit wound is a major failure for a .223/5.56MM round used for medium game hunting. .223/5.56MM entrance wounds are notoriously small and may not produce much if any blood trail which can make recovery in heavy cover difficult at best. I take many dozens of shots with .223/5.56MM on animals every year. The loads I use for hunting get pressed into service for SD/HD the second I am confronted with a trespasser/poacher/thief on my property. And it has happened as recently as last month. If that is all that .223 Fusion has, and you are satisfied with it, carry on. Yes, the deer died. But if that deer were an armed threat, do you think he would have been incapacitated by that shot before firing at you? I would not bet my life on it. I know whitetail anatomy & I know what to expect when I shoot them with M193/M855/TBBC/55GR. SP/70GR. Speer SP/60GR. Part./X bullets/TSX/TTSX/TMK/MK/GK because I have already done it. What the gentleman spent his valuable time documenting/sharing is a 62GR. .223 Fusion that expanded to little more than full caliber. And what he described is a broadside hit thru nothing more than soft tissue that failed to produce an exit wound. So we have a 62GR. .223 Fusion bullet that neither expanded well nor penetrated well. Once we know what barrel length he used, we can probably get a pretty fair idea of the impact velocity of that 62GR. Fusion bullet. And that is about as technical as it gets. Recovered game-shot bullets are invaluable to us in regards to SD/HD as well as hunting. With all the guys on this board using Fusion, taking a very close look at .223 Fusion terminal performance on an actual flesh & bone target is a no-brainer. .02
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Posted: 11/20/2015 12:35:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Bluefalcon did a reduced load test and his results with an impact velocity of 1700 fps the Fusion penetrated gel 14'' plus 6 inches of water and expanded pretty close to 3/8 of an inch.
Here is the thread with his findings. Kudos to him for the excellent testing he does.
Bluefalcon Fusion test |
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Posted: 11/20/2015 1:25:04 PM EDT
[#35]
I have used the 62g Fusion quite a bit on hogs and have never had a problem with it putting them down. Most travel less than 25yds. All of them have been complete pass throughs with a decent sized exit wound. That does mean however that I don't have any recovered projectiles to show expansion.
I'm willing to bet either the gun was a sub 10" barrel, there was something wrong with that specific cartridge as in it didn't get all the propellant burnt due to a weak ignition or something, or there was something wrong with that specific projectile. If anyone is looking to dispose of their Fusion because of all this feel free to send me a PM and I'll give you an address where you can send it for proper disposal. |
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Posted: 11/20/2015 4:15:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail. https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: no thank you. this is a fusion that came out of a deer last weekend. 170 yards, entered between two ribs, punctured both lungs, no exit wound. no blood trail. https://i.imgur.com/yNdgvg1.jpg |
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Posted: 11/20/2015 7:08:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.......used for medium game hunting we are talking home defense ..............blood trail irrelevant in HD ............But if that deer were an armed threat wait, what? Shooting at 170 yds for self defense? Quote HistoryQuoted:
.......used for medium game hunting we are talking home defense ..............blood trail irrelevant in HD ............But if that deer were an armed threat wait, what? Shooting at 170 yds for self defense? Again, what is the standard/expected/best expansion threshold for barrier blind ammo? BlueFalcon test got a 1700 fps threshold for Fusion. from BlueFalcon: The reduced charge used in the SBR test represents what the full power load could do at about 475 yards.
BB: 597.1 fps, 3.4" 11.5" barrel results: Impact velocity: 1,703 fps Penetration: 14" gel + 6" water Retained weight: 61.5 gr Neck: 0.5" TSC: 1.5" x 4" Max expansion: 0.384" Min expansion: 0.264" Min expansion: 0.352" |
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Posted: 11/20/2015 11:59:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again, what is the standard/expected/best expansion threshold for barrier blind ammo? BlueFalcon test got a 1700 fps threshold for Fusion. from BlueFalcon: Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
.......used for medium game hunting we are talking home defense ..............blood trail irrelevant in HD ............But if that deer were an armed threat wait, what? Shooting at 170 yds for self defense? Again, what is the standard/expected/best expansion threshold for barrier blind ammo? BlueFalcon test got a 1700 fps threshold for Fusion. from BlueFalcon: The reduced charge used in the SBR test represents what the full power load could do at about 475 yards.
BB: 597.1 fps, 3.4" 11.5" barrel results: Impact velocity: 1,703 fps Penetration: 14" gel + 6" water Retained weight: 61.5 gr Neck: 0.5" TSC: 1.5" x 4" Max expansion: 0.384" Min expansion: 0.264" Min expansion: 0.352" I was lined up in a scope by a trespasser at about 225yds. while glassing my way into a deer stand on my property Christmas Day 2013. What I saw was a guy in my leaning stand looking right back at me thru his scoped bolt rifle. I immediately went to ground then cover & took off all the orange I was wearing. The rules had changed in a heart beat. We had a few tense minutes before he tossed his 30-06 as ordered. The 5.56MM ammo I was using that day would do very well for SD at that range. I am quite sure of that because I had already shot a whitetail from that very stand with that load within a few yards of where I was positioned. The type 5.56MM ammo I use for SD/HD/general hunting was listed above. You must have missed it in your haste to post your "Again" speech so it is now in red. But in response to your other question "wait, what? Shooting at 170 yds for self defense? " It came damn close son. Thanks for asking! Given today's world, SD can take on many different forms. |
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Posted: 11/21/2015 10:57:45 AM EDT
[#39]
I've had lots of M193 and M855 bullets fail to fragment and leave ice pick wounds. I've never had anything but stellar DRT results with Gold Dots, which are supposedly the same bullet as the Fusion.
What we have is one report from a guy who won't tell us what barrel length he used or if the round was a reload. My confidence in Fusion is not shaken in the least. One shaky report of a failure does not outweigh the vast body of excellent performance, at least not for me. |
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Posted: 11/21/2015 11:45:47 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've had lots of M193 and M855 bullets fail to fragment and leave ice pick wounds. I've never had anything but stellar DRT results with Gold Dots, which are supposedly the same bullet as the Fusion. What we have is one report from a guy who won't tell us what barrel length he used or if the round was a reload. My confidence in Fusion is not shaken in the least. One shaky report of a failure does not outweigh the vast body of excellent performance, at least not for me. I still remember the news story about the solider shot in the face at arm's length with a 9mm FMJ in Iraq that required only somewhat minor dental work. I still carry a 9mm. http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp |
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Posted: 11/21/2015 3:53:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've had lots of M193 and M855 bullets fail to fragment and leave ice pick wounds. I've never had anything but stellar DRT results with Gold Dots, which are supposedly the same bullet as the Fusion. What we have is one report from a guy who won't tell us what barrel length he used or if the round was a reload. My confidence in Fusion is not shaken in the least. One shaky report of a failure does not outweigh the vast body of excellent performance, at least not for me. CastorTroy said his recovered bullet was a factory 62GR. .223 Fusion fired from a 16" arp midlength nitride barrel. He also said it was not a squib, recoil was normal, there was nothing in between him and the target standing in an open field, 2600FT. MSL, and temp was 50ish. |
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Posted: 11/21/2015 9:39:11 PM EDT
[#42]
I used the MSR .223 Rem for the 1st time this year. Shot a doe that ran in front me from about 20 yards, it piled up and died. I later shot a 8-point in the chest from about 80 yards. It then turned to it's right and began walking very slowly. I shot it again and it fell over dead. The only bullet I found was from the doe. It weighed 33.2 grains and expanded well over twice it's diameter. I'm happy with it.
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Posted: 11/22/2015 9:09:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Seems that this "issue" would be solved if the disappointed shooter had shot big game at almost 200 yards with a 30 caliber rifle like the rest of the world does.
I will keep stacking Fusion and Gold Dot. |
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Posted: 11/22/2015 11:20:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems that this "issue" would be solved if the disappointed shooter had shot big game at almost 200 yards with a 30 caliber rifle like the rest of the world does. I will keep stacking Fusion and Gold Dot. Excellent point. What percentage of civilian self defense scenarios occur at 175 yards ? |
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Posted: 11/23/2015 1:48:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bluefalcon did a reduced load test and his results with an impact velocity of 1700 fps the Fusion penetrated gel 14'' plus 6 inches of water and expanded pretty close to 3/8 of an inch. Here is the thread with his findings. Kudos to him for the excellent testing he does.
Bluefalcon Fusion test Thank you. Shameless self promotion embed: 
I also tested it through a windshield and had good results:
https://youtu.be/upyDQyr-3Lk |
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Posted: 11/24/2015 2:16:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i have had good luck with beck ammunition's ra556b clone. uses the same nosler 64gr soft point, runs reliably in both rifles i've tested it in, and is actually slightly hotter than ra556b according to listed velocities From my research this is what I've purchased. Truth be told, my AR won't be finished until this weekend so I have no idea about function or accuracy yet
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Posted: 11/25/2015 12:12:17 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CastorTroy said his recovered bullet was a factory 62GR. .223 Fusion fired from a 16" arp midlength nitride barrel. He also said it was not a squib, recoil was normal, there was nothing in between him and the target standing in an open field, 2600FT. MSL, and temp was 50ish. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've had lots of M193 and M855 bullets fail to fragment and leave ice pick wounds. I've never had anything but stellar DRT results with Gold Dots, which are supposedly the same bullet as the Fusion. What we have is one report from a guy who won't tell us what barrel length he used or if the round was a reload. My confidence in Fusion is not shaken in the least. One shaky report of a failure does not outweigh the vast body of excellent performance, at least not for me. CastorTroy said his recovered bullet was a factory 62GR. .223 Fusion fired from a 16" arp midlength nitride barrel. He also said it was not a squib, recoil was normal, there was nothing in between him and the target standing in an open field, 2600FT. MSL, and temp was 50ish. That's odd, and the very definition of "anecdotal". My experience with the bullet has been that as range increases, trauma decreases but penetration is still there, my son has shot deer and hogs past 175 yards and we've yet to have one that wasn't a clean pass through, and DRT. Did Castor say how far the deer went, or if this was the first one he shot with Fusion? The mag in my truck gun is loaded with MSR, hopefully I'll get some more "data" soon... |
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Posted: 11/28/2015 1:26:36 AM EDT
[#48]
This was a buck I got last week. It hit bone (spine) and didn't exit. I used a 16" AR with Federal Fusion 62gr at a distance of 85 yards.
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Posted: 11/28/2015 11:16:42 AM EDT
[#49]
Nice! Was it a handload, regular fusion, or the MSR?
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Posted: 11/28/2015 12:20:37 PM EDT
[#50]
It was regular Fusion F223FS1 from Bass Pro. I don't think anyone carries the MSR version locally.
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