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Posted: 7/6/2015 3:29:45 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 7/6/2015 3:39:03 PM EDT
[#2]
What do you like about the IMI? Consistency, velocity, cleanliness?
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:26:36 PM EDT
[#3]
IMI
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:37:13 PM EDT
[#4]
IMI
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:50:00 PM EDT
[#5]
Whatever is cheapest.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 5:08:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Hi,
Lowest priced, true to spec 5.56 MM M-193 ammo. I learned my lesson back in the 90's when I zeroed my 20" Olympic AR-15 HBAR rifle with Israeli M-193 ammo to shoot in the SOF West 3 gun natch in Las Vegas. The ref's wouldn't let the US Army team shoot M855 ammo so I traded my IMI M-193 for M855 with the team, and shot some PMC 223 Remington instead. A big mistake for both of us, the PMC 223 shot low at 200 yards on the plates for me, and the IMI M-193 ended up shooting low in the US army M16A2'S at 200 yards on the 10" plates. Latter on I shot some true M-193 ammo and the zero came back to were it was supposed to shoot. It was a fun experience though. Best Wishes: 
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Posted: 7/6/2015 5:19:26 PM EDT
[#7]
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-5-56-55gr-fmj-bt-90rds-strclp.html
As long as you do not have any unrealistic accuracy expectations for M193 type ammo.... which is rarely very accurate anyway.... I strongly suggest you fire some for accuracy, and compare it to various other M193 type ammo. As long as my suggested ammo is accurate enough then that is what I would stockpile for "M193". I believe that ammo to be a excellent deal and a wise decision. Having ammo on stripper clips is a fantastically fast way to reload mags. as well as an excellent storage way. I will suggest a better "spoon" though... something like the MagLula... http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/maglula-ar15-m16.html IMI is great M193 ammo... but not always much more accurate then XM193. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 5:20:11 PM EDT
[#8]
IMI
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:29:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hi, Lowest priced, true to spec 5.56 MM M-193 ammo. I learned my lesson back in the 90's when I zeroed my 20" Olympic AR-15 HBAR rifle with Israeli M-193 ammo to shoot in the SOF West 3 gun natch in Las Vegas. The ref's wouldn't let the US Army team shoot M855 ammo so I traded my IMI M-193 for M855 with the team, and shot some PMC 223 Remington instead. A big mistake for both of us, the PMC 223 shot low at 200 yards on the plates for me, and the IMI M-193 ended up shooting low in the US army M16A2'S at 200 yards on the 10" plates. Latter on I shot some true M-193 ammo and the zero came back to were it was supposed to shoot. It was a fun experience though. Best Wishes: Are you saying that IMI is not true to M193 spec? |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:31:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whatever is cheapest. This, but I would prefer IMI, LC, Fed in that order. I even like the PPU 193 clone, just not reloading the PPU brass. edit: I have about 1.5K of LC and 500 of PPU at the moment. I also have 2K of Wolf Gold 55gr which is close to 193 and is much cheaper. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:51:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Lake City or Federal
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:51:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This, but I would prefer IMI, LC, Fed in that order. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Whatever is cheapest. This, but I would prefer IMI, LC, Fed in that order. What kind of Federal M193 exists that isn't Lake City? Not sure I have seen M193 spec ammo from Fed/ATK that wasn't in a LC case? In order of preferences to have stockpiled.... IMI/Q3131A, LC Fed XM193 (boxed), Winchester WCC Q3131, Korean Q3131A1, Wolf Gold. Wolf Gold was a little slower than most of the above, but about twice as accurate. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:01:56 PM EDT
[#13]
How does Prvi stack up to IMI or LC?
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:41:04 PM EDT
[#14]
My reloads. Cloned an m193 load and load it about $.13/rd.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:24:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you saying that IMI is not true to M193 spec? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hi, Lowest priced, true to spec 5.56 MM M-193 ammo. I learned my lesson back in the 90's when I zeroed my 20" Olympic AR-15 HBAR rifle with Israeli M-193 ammo to shoot in the SOF West 3 gun natch in Las Vegas. The ref's wouldn't let the US Army team shoot M855 ammo so I traded my IMI M-193 for M855 with the team, and shot some PMC 223 Remington instead. A big mistake for both of us, the PMC 223 shot low at 200 yards on the plates for me, and the IMI M-193 ended up shooting low in the US army M16A2'S at 200 yards on the 10" plates. Latter on I shot some true M-193 ammo and the zero came back to were it was supposed to shoot. It was a fun experience though. Best Wishes: Are you saying that IMI is not true to M193 spec? a rounds POI has nothing to do with if it meets specs. even using a different lot of the same ammo can cause POI to shift |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:27:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you saying that IMI is not true to M193 spec? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hi, Lowest priced, true to spec 5.56 MM M-193 ammo. I learned my lesson back in the 90's when I zeroed my 20" Olympic AR-15 HBAR rifle with Israeli M-193 ammo to shoot in the SOF West 3 gun natch in Las Vegas. The ref's wouldn't let the US Army team shoot M855 ammo so I traded my IMI M-193 for M855 with the team, and shot some PMC 223 Remington instead. A big mistake for both of us, the PMC 223 shot low at 200 yards on the plates for me, and the IMI M-193 ended up shooting low in the US army M16A2'S at 200 yards on the 10" plates. Latter on I shot some true M-193 ammo and the zero came back to were it was supposed to shoot. It was a fun experience though. Best Wishes: Are you saying that IMI is not true to M193 spec? He's saying IMI193 shoots low in a rifle Zero'd for 855. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:31:00 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hi, Lowest priced, true to spec 5.56 MM M-193 ammo. I learned my lesson back in the 90's when I zeroed my 20" Olympic AR-15 HBAR rifle with Israeli M-193 ammo to shoot in the SOF West 3 gun natch in Las Vegas. The ref's wouldn't let the US Army team shoot M855 ammo so I traded my IMI M-193 for M855 with the team, and shot some PMC 223 Remington instead. A big mistake for both of us, the PMC 223 shot low at 200 yards on the plates for me, and the IMI M-193 ended up shooting low in the US army M16A2'S at 200 yards on the 10" plates. Latter on I shot some true M-193 ammo and the zero came back to were it was supposed to shoot. It was a fun experience though. Best Wishes: thats not surprising...  |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:48:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What kind of Federal M193 exists that isn't Lake City? Not sure I have seen M193 spec ammo from Fed/ATK that wasn't in a LC case? snip Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whatever is cheapest. This, but I would prefer IMI, LC, Fed in that order. What kind of Federal M193 exists that isn't Lake City? Not sure I have seen M193 spec ammo from Fed/ATK that wasn't in a LC case? snip The black box AE556 is with FC head stamps, crimped, sealed, annealed, etc. I've shot a lot of it over the last few years. I've seen it with both head stamps out of those boxes. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 7:37:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lake City or Federal |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 6:54:40 PM EDT
[#20]
I like the cherry, but grape will do also.
IMI, LC is what I have |
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Posted: 7/8/2015 9:56:52 AM EDT
[#21]
I really like the CBC M193. Seems hot, clean, and accurate in every rifle I own.
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Posted: 7/8/2015 9:59:35 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How does Prvi stack up to IMI or LC? I prefer PPU to LC, not sure there is too big a difference between the PPU and IMI though. Both are clean and accurate. I have a generally low opinion of LC ammo. It's decent, just not as accurate. |
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Posted: 7/8/2015 11:53:27 AM EDT
[#23]
I prefer Federal's XM193 out of all the M193 loads I have tried. Next would be IMI or PMC's XTAC M193 loads.
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Posted: 7/8/2015 12:28:50 PM EDT
[#24]
OP if your meaning as to stocking up for "a bad day in flat rock," then you should also be concerned with bullet preformance in the target. Not all M193 will fragment which makes the M193 an acceptable anti-personel round.
Even within the same lot of ammo, you might have a shot impact which started tumbling more quickly upon entering the medium (short neck wound) than others which would not tumble (leading to possible flattening and fragmenting, ie "long neck.) IMI should be good but I also stock Lake City and PMC Extact. Read up in the ammo oracle posted here for all your ammo questions! Excellent read! |
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Posted: 7/8/2015 1:04:00 PM EDT
[#25]
I have a few 1k cases of the original mil spec PMC M193. Had it since the early 80s. If still avail, I rec'n it would be my choice. This stuff..
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Posted: 7/8/2015 5:00:14 PM EDT
[#26]
is this 1200 box IMI ammo from Wideners worth the extra price over other xm193 ammo?
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Posted: 7/8/2015 9:11:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is this 1200 box IMI ammo from Wideners worth the extra price over other xm193 ammo? Yes, IMO! I have many boxes of that stashed. |
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Posted: 7/8/2015 9:46:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is this 1200 box IMI ammo from Wideners worth the extra price over other xm193 ammo? I remember when it was cheaper. Today? Not to me. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 11:09:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I remember when it was cheaper. Today? Not to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
is this 1200 box IMI ammo from Wideners worth the extra price over other xm193 ammo? I remember when it was cheaper. Today? Not to me. I don't understand, $406 for 1200 rounds comes out to .33 cents a round. You can't find any 5.56 cheaper then this to be honest. .223 you may be able to get it for .29 cents a round. Do you really think it is going to get cheaper? I see you have been a member for a long time and figure you're used to the old prices of ammo. Which isn't a problem but I wonder if you think this IMI ammo is overpriced right now compared to other ammo or is any 5.56 ammo overpriced for you? |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 11:19:21 AM EDT
[#30]
IMI = best
Cheapest "good" 55 gr ball ammo (not quite M193 velocity, but good enough for range use): Wolf Gold. 55 ball reloads - what I actually use. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 11:21:22 AM EDT
[#31]
That same 1200 round pack was $350 before the m855 ban proposal, I think that is what he was getting at.
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Posted: 7/9/2015 11:22:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand, $406 for 1200 rounds comes out to .33 cents a round. You can't find any 5.56 cheaper then this to be honest. .223 you may be able to get it for .29 cents a round. Do you really think it is going to get cheaper? I see you have been a member for a long time and figure you're used to the old prices of ammo. Which isn't a problem but I wonder if you think this IMI ammo is overpriced right now compared to other ammo or is any 5.56 ammo overpriced for you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
is this 1200 box IMI ammo from Wideners worth the extra price over other xm193 ammo? I remember when it was cheaper. Today? Not to me. I don't understand, $406 for 1200 rounds comes out to .33 cents a round. You can't find any 5.56 cheaper then this to be honest. .223 you may be able to get it for .29 cents a round. Do you really think it is going to get cheaper? I see you have been a member for a long time and figure you're used to the old prices of ammo. Which isn't a problem but I wonder if you think this IMI ammo is overpriced right now compared to other ammo or is any 5.56 ammo overpriced for you? $408/1200 = 34 cents a round. $438 shipped = 36.5 cents a round. Wolf Gold is 30.9 cents per round delivered. I'm going to always buy the cheapest, good quality ammo for shooting. If I am buying 5000 rounds, that is a $280 difference, or a little over 15%. To some people that is worth it to get IMI. I am a bit on the fence.... I just really like Wolf Gold ammo for shooting. But if it were truly SHTF sticking back for the long term, yeah, paying the difference for the IMI would be worth it. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 11:53:51 AM EDT
[#33]
FALARAK, may I ask why you think the IMI ammo will be worth the price over Wolf Gold in a SHTF?
It just seems that both ammo is so reliable and accurate that either one will do the job. Does one store better? |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 12:02:05 PM EDT
[#34]
Is the anticipated shelf life of the Wolf Gold as good as the IMI since IMI uses (NATO spec) tar for the necks and seal the primer pocket?
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Posted: 7/9/2015 12:42:27 PM EDT
[#35]
What is the velocity difference between Wolf Gold and say the IMI?
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Posted: 7/9/2015 2:05:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FALARAK, may I ask why you think the IMI ammo will be worth the price over Wolf Gold in a SHTF? It just seems that both ammo is so reliable and accurate that either one will do the job. Does one store better? I'm assuming he feels that way since IMI is sealed at the primer and projectile (I've submerged IMI M855 for more than an hour, and it still all went bang). That's why it's worth the extra cost to me. Not to mention IMI has proven to be the most accurate "surplus" ammo I've shot through my rifles. I'm referring to M855, only because that's why I normally use for practice, plinking, and SHTF storage. From Molon's tests, their M193 spec ammo is also quite accurate for ball ammo. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 6:13:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm assuming he feels that way since IMI is sealed at the primer and projectile (I've submerged IMI M855 for more than an hour, and it still all went bang). That's why it's worth the extra cost to me. Not to mention IMI has proven to be the most accurate "surplus" ammo I've shot through my rifles. I'm referring to M855, only because that's why I normally use for practice, plinking, and SHTF storage. From Molon's tests, their M193 spec ammo is also quite accurate for ball ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
FALARAK, may I ask why you think the IMI ammo will be worth the price over Wolf Gold in a SHTF? It just seems that both ammo is so reliable and accurate that either one will do the job. Does one store better? I'm assuming he feels that way since IMI is sealed at the primer and projectile (I've submerged IMI M855 for more than an hour, and it still all went bang). That's why it's worth the extra cost to me. Not to mention IMI has proven to be the most accurate "surplus" ammo I've shot through my rifles. I'm referring to M855, only because that's why I normally use for practice, plinking, and SHTF storage. From Molon's tests, their M193 spec ammo is also quite accurate for ball ammo. Wolf Gold has primer and neck sealant as well, and velocity is about the same as IMI M193. Most XM193 does not have neck sealant. Wolf Gold is pretty accurate for M193 type ammo. That said, there was a gel test of Wolf Gold posted here fairly recently that showed very little fragmentation. Though it was out of a SBR and near the bottom of the fragmentation velocity range. So it's questionable whether Wolf Gold will fragment much. Whether being known to fragment reliably(for M193 anyway) is worth the extra 4 cents a round for IMI is up to you. Personally for long term storage/SHTF I prefer ammo with both primer and neck sealant. The cheapest I've seen XM193 lately is $0.33/round, can get IMI for $0.34/round. Between those two I'd go with IMI for the sealant, and because XM193 has a reputation for inconsistent velocity and accuracy. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 7:38:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FALARAK, may I ask why you think the IMI ammo will be worth the price over Wolf Gold in a SHTF? It just seems that both ammo is so reliable and accurate that either one will do the job. Does one store better? IMI is higher velocity, so more reliable fragmentation and longer frag range. Wolf Gold is JUST at the very bottom of the velocity for M193 spec. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 7:42:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wolf Gold has primer and neck sealant as well, and velocity is about the same as IMI M193. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wolf Gold has primer and neck sealant as well, and velocity is about the same as IMI M193. NOT true. We had knockdown dragout arguments over this. IMI is generally some of the highest velocity M193 and Wolf Gold is right at the bottom of the spec. Around 70 to 120fps difference. Most XM193 does not have neck sealant. Certainly not my experience. I have *never* pulled a bullet of XM193 that *didn't* have tar neck sealant. And I have pulled a fair amount of bullets. Wolf Gold is pretty accurate for M193 type ammo. That said, there was a gel test of Wolf Gold posted here fairly recently that showed very little fragmentation. Though it was out of a SBR and near the bottom of the fragmentation velocity range. So it's questionable whether Wolf Gold will fragment much. Whether being known to fragment reliably(for M193 anyway) is worth the extra 4 cents a round for IMI is up to you.
Personally for long term storage/SHTF I prefer ammo with both primer and neck sealant. The cheapest I've seen XM193 lately is $0.33/round, can get IMI for $0.34/round. Between those two I'd go with IMI for the sealant, and because XM193 has a reputation for inconsistent velocity and accuracy. All that I agree with. 
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Posted: 7/9/2015 8:16:52 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NOT true. We had knockdown dragout arguments over this. IMI is generally some of the highest velocity M193 and Wolf Gold is right at the bottom of the spec. Around 70 to 120fps difference. Certainly not my experience. I have *never* pulled a bullet of XM193 that *didn't* have tar neck sealant. And I have pulled a fair amount of bullets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wolf Gold has primer and neck sealant as well, and velocity is about the same as IMI M193. NOT true. We had knockdown dragout arguments over this. IMI is generally some of the highest velocity M193 and Wolf Gold is right at the bottom of the spec. Around 70 to 120fps difference. Most XM193 does not have neck sealant. Certainly not my experience. I have *never* pulled a bullet of XM193 that *didn't* have tar neck sealant. And I have pulled a fair amount of bullets. There does seem to be some conflicting velocity results for Wolf Gold, though at least some claim to have gotten readings within about 50 fps of IMI. Close enough for me at least, obviously some disagree. Multiple posters here and other sites have pulled XM193 and XM855 bullets and found no sealant. Seems to be luck of the draw whether they have it or not. I really can't think of any remotely plausible scenario where I'd need thousands of rounds of good fragmenting M193. I'd buy 600-1,200 rounds of IMI and store if while buying a few cases of Wolf Gold for range use. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 8:26:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... I really can't think of any remotely plausible scenario where I'd need thousands of rounds of good fragmenting M193... Funny... I can think of a half-dozen plausible ones without even trying hard. Different strokes and all that, I guess. 
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Posted: 7/10/2015 1:27:13 AM EDT
[#42]
For me IMI> LC> Prvi> Wolf Gold.
Though I think have more Prvi than any of those others. |
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Posted: 7/10/2015 2:10:45 AM EDT
[#43]
Why is Wolf Gold being brought up as an alternative to M193.
I thought Wolf gold only comes in .223 size and isn't a XM193 or M193. |
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Posted: 7/10/2015 3:47:04 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why is Wolf Gold being brought up as an alternative to M193. I thought Wolf gold only comes in .223 size and isn't a XM193 or M193. It's marketed as .223 but many have chrono'd it as just below M193 velocity. It's a hot load for .223 55 gr. Accurate enough plinking load for me. I like it a lot. |
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Posted: 7/10/2015 8:48:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wolf Gold has primer and neck sealant as well, and velocity is about the same as IMI M193. Most XM193 does not have neck sealant. Wolf Gold is pretty accurate for M193 type ammo. That said, there was a gel test of Wolf Gold posted here fairly recently that showed very little fragmentation. Though it was out of a SBR and near the bottom of the fragmentation velocity range. So it's questionable whether Wolf Gold will fragment much. Whether being known to fragment reliably(for M193 anyway) is worth the extra 4 cents a round for IMI is up to you. Personally for long term storage/SHTF I prefer ammo with both primer and neck sealant. The cheapest I've seen XM193 lately is $0.33/round, can get IMI for $0.34/round. Between those two I'd go with IMI for the sealant, and because XM193 has a reputation for inconsistent velocity and accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: FALARAK, may I ask why you think the IMI ammo will be worth the price over Wolf Gold in a SHTF? It just seems that both ammo is so reliable and accurate that either one will do the job. Does one store better? I'm assuming he feels that way since IMI is sealed at the primer and projectile (I've submerged IMI M855 for more than an hour, and it still all went bang). That's why it's worth the extra cost to me. Not to mention IMI has proven to be the most accurate "surplus" ammo I've shot through my rifles. I'm referring to M855, only because that's why I normally use for practice, plinking, and SHTF storage. From Molon's tests, their M193 spec ammo is also quite accurate for ball ammo. Wolf Gold has primer and neck sealant as well, and velocity is about the same as IMI M193. Most XM193 does not have neck sealant. Wolf Gold is pretty accurate for M193 type ammo. That said, there was a gel test of Wolf Gold posted here fairly recently that showed very little fragmentation. Though it was out of a SBR and near the bottom of the fragmentation velocity range. So it's questionable whether Wolf Gold will fragment much. Whether being known to fragment reliably(for M193 anyway) is worth the extra 4 cents a round for IMI is up to you. Personally for long term storage/SHTF I prefer ammo with both primer and neck sealant. The cheapest I've seen XM193 lately is $0.33/round, can get IMI for $0.34/round. Between those two I'd go with IMI for the sealant, and because XM193 has a reputation for inconsistent velocity and accuracy. I may have to pick some up and see how my rifles like it. Thanks. |
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Posted: 7/10/2015 10:19:32 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why is Wolf Gold being brought up as an alternative to M193. I thought Wolf gold only comes in .223 size and isn't a XM193 or M193. First - XM193 is not a spec. That's a marketing name so lets just leave that there. Wolf Gold uses 55gr FMJ-BT projectiles, with a jacket construction in line with M193. It has sealed necks and primers, and has a velocity just at the minimum spec for M193. Therefore, while it has a velocity that is slightly less than most other popular M193 ammo, it is in the same category. Regardless of what they put on the outside of the box. |
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Posted: 7/10/2015 10:30:07 AM EDT
[#47]
I wouldn't mind trying some wolf gold if I ever luck out and find it in stock.
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Posted: 7/10/2015 11:02:19 AM EDT
[#48]
My SHTF ammo can has 900rds of m193 and 200rds of 77otm and that's it, my plinking ammo is siting at 5000 rds of wolf gold because it is the cheapest cleaning shooting ammo that I have found. It's the ammo I run all my carbine courses with.
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Posted: 7/10/2015 1:45:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My SHTF ammo can has 900rds of m193 and 200rds of 77otm and that's it, my plinking ammo is siting at 5000 rds of wolf gold because it is the cheapest cleaning shooting ammo that I have found. It's the ammo I run all my carbine courses with. Do you find a significant difference in trajectory between the Wolf Gold and the actual m193? |
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Posted: 7/11/2015 12:32:57 AM EDT
[#50]
Not at all, but I haven't tested it past 200 for impact differences. Inside 100 they are the same.
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