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Posted: 4/19/2015 1:01:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Duplicate sorry.
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Posted: 4/19/2015 1:03:41 PM EDT
[#2]
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Got it. The shop and wait bit was what I was missing... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I listed above where I'm getting it at .27 cents a round but you have to play the game.... member, wait for double discount (for quantities I buy, free shipping is probably better for less) Got it. The shop and wait bit was what I was missing... Now I'm confused... 
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Posted: 4/19/2015 1:24:43 PM EDT
[#3]
I'll be testing it in gelatin next week. I'll probably do 11.5" and 16" barrels at approximately 10 feet, unless you REALLY want to see something different.
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Posted: 4/19/2015 2:20:09 PM EDT
[#4]
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I'll be testing it in gelatin next week. I'll probably do 11.5" and 16" barrels at approximately 10 feet, unless you REALLY want to see something different. 20" barrel, just to get your velocity statistics, and to compare penetration and fragmentation. Too many "arguments" out there already about this stuff. :-) |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 2:40:22 PM EDT
[#5]
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20" barrel, just to get your velocity statistics, and to compare penetration and fragmentation. Too many "arguments" out there already about this stuff. :-) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll be testing it in gelatin next week. I'll probably do 11.5" and 16" barrels at approximately 10 feet, unless you REALLY want to see something different. 20" barrel, just to get your velocity statistics, and to compare penetration and fragmentation. Too many "arguments" out there already about this stuff. :-) I'm happy to do 20" if other members want to see that but most of my gel tests are either 11.5" and 16" or 16" only. I think that maintaining that standard would give a better comparison to earlier tests (like the Hornady 55 gr FMJ below). Do you think it would be enough to just get a five shot average from the 20" and do the gel shots with the SBR and carbine? 
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Posted: 4/19/2015 2:59:05 PM EDT
[#6]
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I'm happy to do 20" if other members want to see that but most of my gel tests are either 11.5" and 16" or 16" only. I think that maintaining that standard would give a better comparison to earlier tests (like the Hornady 55 gr FMJ below). Do you think it would be enough to just get a five shot average from the 20" and do the gel shots with the SBR and carbine?  https://youtu.be/gqqZK6rrjA8Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll be testing it in gelatin next week. I'll probably do 11.5" and 16" barrels at approximately 10 feet, unless you REALLY want to see something different. 20" barrel, just to get your velocity statistics, and to compare penetration and fragmentation. Too many "arguments" out there already about this stuff. :-) I'm happy to do 20" if other members want to see that but most of my gel tests are either 11.5" and 16" or 16" only. I think that maintaining that standard would give a better comparison to earlier tests (like the Hornady 55 gr FMJ below). Do you think it would be enough to just get a five shot average from the 20" and do the gel shots with the SBR and carbine? https://youtu.be/gqqZK6rrjA8More data is always better, but yes velocity alone would help map another data point |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 3:05:07 PM EDT
[#7]
More to the point, do you think it's more useful to have the 16" or 20" gel test if you had to choose? I'd just do all three but my time and space in the gel is limited.
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Posted: 4/19/2015 3:42:04 PM EDT
[#8]
16"
It would be nice to have test videos for every barrel length, but with limited resources, it only makes sense to pander to the most widely used barrel length first and then add other vids as time permits. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 3:50:18 PM EDT
[#9]
16" and 20" because thats what most people have.
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Posted: 4/19/2015 4:23:18 PM EDT
[#10]
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More to the point, do you think it's more useful to have the 16" or 20" gel test if you had to choose? I'd just do all three but my time and space in the gel is limited. It depends on what standard people are interested in. Maximum fragmentation, or degree and reliability of fragmentation at lower velocities. I'd say the 16" test will give the most interesting data since the velocities will be lower. Regardless, if you do a lot of testing, it should be kept to the same standards. |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 4:35:41 PM EDT
[#11]
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Now I'm confused... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I listed above where I'm getting it at .27 cents a round but you have to play the game.... member, wait for double discount (for quantities I buy, free shipping is probably better for less) Got it. The shop and wait bit was what I was missing... Now I'm confused... First, Sportsman's Guide has a "membership" program that gets you 10% off - so the 27¢ price is as a member. Second (what had gotten me confused) they're out of stock. 
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Posted: 4/19/2015 4:42:27 PM EDT
[#12]
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Ahhh, so the extremely high altitude + high temperatures are what most likely contributed to the higher than average velocity. 1030 ft altitude is high. Keep in mind the 78 foot test for M193 requires a certain temperature and altitude. Even so, the Wolf gold is still out of spec velocity wise! I don't remember who posted it, but someone here in an earlier thread posted pictures after cutting through one of the jackets. It was much thicker than the other M193 bullets he bisected. ***EDIT: I just found the thread, it was member 2IS who posted it http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=652605 . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The high end aberration average from ONE supposed test of wolf gold (still waiting to see source / documentation of said test) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/623913__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Wolf_Gold__223_55gr_.html&page=1#i6189988 Hopefully you can stop using the word "supposed" which is really close to "bullshit". Ahhh, so the extremely high altitude + high temperatures are what most likely contributed to the higher than average velocity. 1030 ft altitude is high. Keep in mind the 78 foot test for M193 requires a certain temperature and altitude. Even so, the Wolf gold is still out of spec velocity wise! I don't remember who posted it, but someone here in an earlier thread posted pictures after cutting through one of the jackets. It was much thicker than the other M193 bullets he bisected. ***EDIT: I just found the thread, it was member 2IS who posted it http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=652605 . I just grinded down the end of the Wolf Gold bullet flat, and the jacketing is most definitely thicker than Federal XM193 Ok Blain - here it is with pictures and measurements - not just one members speculation. I was surprised to see Wolf Gold is actually the THINNEST of all the jackets measured. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/673607_M193_jacket_comparison___Wolf_Gold__IMI__and_XM193.html |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 4:53:25 PM EDT
[#13]
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16" and 20" because thats what most people have. I do the 11.5" mainly to get an idea of down range effect. It doesn't hurt that it is also my go to HD gun. 
But yeah, if I could only do one barrel length, it would probably be 16" |
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Posted: 4/19/2015 6:46:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Looks like some folks might be enjoying a little crow tonight after those pictures and measurement's. Love the informative posts on here. Keep it up!
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Posted: 4/19/2015 10:15:24 PM EDT
[#15]
$300 per case plus shipping will be the new, post mini panic price for Wolf Gold for a little while. SG Ammo just went back in stock today and they have ten cases left right now. $16 shipping for me.
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Posted: 4/19/2015 11:11:31 PM EDT
[#16]
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Ok Blain - here it is with pictures and measurements - not just one members speculation. I was surprised to see Wolf Gold is actually the THINNEST of all the jackets measured. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/673607_M193_jacket_comparison___Wolf_Gold__IMI__and_XM193.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The high end aberration average from ONE supposed test of wolf gold (still waiting to see source / documentation of said test) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/623913__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Wolf_Gold__223_55gr_.html&page=1#i6189988 Hopefully you can stop using the word "supposed" which is really close to "bullshit". Ahhh, so the extremely high altitude + high temperatures are what most likely contributed to the higher than average velocity. 1030 ft altitude is high. Keep in mind the 78 foot test for M193 requires a certain temperature and altitude. Even so, the Wolf gold is still out of spec velocity wise! I don't remember who posted it, but someone here in an earlier thread posted pictures after cutting through one of the jackets. It was much thicker than the other M193 bullets he bisected. ***EDIT: I just found the thread, it was member 2IS who posted it http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=652605 . I just grinded down the end of the Wolf Gold bullet flat, and the jacketing is most definitely thicker than Federal XM193 Ok Blain - here it is with pictures and measurements - not just one members speculation. I was surprised to see Wolf Gold is actually the THINNEST of all the jackets measured. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/673607_M193_jacket_comparison___Wolf_Gold__IMI__and_XM193.html Interestingly enough, after seeing this I pulled apart another WG and American Eagle XM193 cartridge... The XM193 I pulled this time around was NOT the same as the original one I pulled months ago, even though it came from the same container (Blain referred to that post I made earlier in this thread) the original one I pulled didn't even have a boat tail on it, this one did have one as well as a jacket thickness that from my naked eye, looked identical to the WG I pulled. I grabbed a couple more XM193 and it was the same thing. Very strange that the first one I pulled looked so much different, not just jacket thickness but the fact that it didn't even have a boat tail on it, and the last three I've pulled did. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 1:39:02 AM EDT
[#17]
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Could be better.....I'd try for less. Around 28 or less is my buy price for Wolf Gold, and I shoot it a lot. Above 30 something cents is only for the rare(very rare) M855 buy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I got $20 shipping at the link above, .32 cents a round is good? Sure doesn't suck. Could be better.....I'd try for less. Around 28 or less is my buy price for Wolf Gold, and I shoot it a lot. Above 30 something cents is only for the rare(very rare) M855 buy. You must have not bought ammo recently...that price for wolf gold was when it was discounted to move supply. Your not going to find wolf that cheap again. And I don't think your gonna find m855 at the mid/high 30 cent range. I understand prices where low before the m855 mini panic hit. Now the prices have risen a bit due to demand. Still 30cents a round for the gold is a good price. Were gonna be looking back in a few years wishing we could get m193 at 30 cents a round. Plus sportsman guide has it listed at $324 or $308 with member pricking. And they cleary say only 5% on ammo. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 4:01:11 AM EDT
[#18]
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Yes, I meant altitude. Not sure how that happened, but I've corrected it. Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I didn't intend to get in on this, but I have to ask: Quoted:...so the extremely high velocity + high temperatures are what most likely contributed to the higher than average velocity. Assuming you mean high altitude and high velocity..? Yes, I meant altitude. Not sure how that happened, but I've corrected it. Thanks. Umm 1030 ft is extremely low altitude and will not increase velocity by anything more than statistical aberration over velocity at sea level given the same relative humidity. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 12:10:19 PM EDT
[#19]
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First, Sportsman's Guide has a "membership" program that gets you 10% off - so the 27¢ price is as a member. Second (what had gotten me confused) they're out of stock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I listed above where I'm getting it at .27 cents a round but you have to play the game.... member, wait for double discount (for quantities I buy, free shipping is probably better for less) Got it. The shop and wait bit was what I was missing... Now I'm confused... First, Sportsman's Guide has a "membership" program that gets you 10% off - so the 27¢ price is as a member. Second (what had gotten me confused) they're out of stock. Except it's 30cpr as a member, not 27cpr. And member discount is 5% on ammo. Better elsewhere. Aussie Outback is good at SG - nothing else is. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 2:50:54 PM EDT
[#20]
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Except it's 30cpr as a member, not 27cpr. And member discount is 5% on ammo. Better elsewhere. Aussie Outback is good at SG - nothing else is. Like I said, shop and wait. They had a better price a short time ago. I read on their site that members get "10% off everything;" I must have missed the fine print. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 2:52:40 PM EDT
[#21]
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I do the 11.5" mainly to get an idea of down range effect. It doesn't hurt that it is also my go to HD gun.
But yeah, if I could only do one barrel length, it would probably be 16" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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16" and 20" because thats what most people have. I do the 11.5" mainly to get an idea of down range effect. It doesn't hurt that it is also my go to HD gun.
But yeah, if I could only do one barrel length, it would probably be 16" Personally, I am most interested in 11.5", or other short barrel data, because at close range with a full length barrel, anything will perform well. I'm more interested in how things will perform at 100 - 200 + yrds. Otherwise you just get an idealized version of how a round will perform under optimal conditions. Not how it will perform if used downrange at any sort of combat distance. As for wolf gold, it's good to know that the jacket thickness is on par with M193 spec. It's just disappointing that it is a little slower than average. I'd love to compare the SBR frag results from wolf gold vs. other M193 types to really get a comparison. Obviously, at basically the contact distances that most gel tests are done at, any 16" + barrel will fragment violently almost regardless of bullet construction. That's way the SBR data is so key to help simulate distance. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 3:25:42 PM EDT
[#22]
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I'd love to compare the SBR frag results from wolf gold vs. other M193 types to really get a comparison. Agreed. That's what really matters. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 10:27:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Another thing to keep in mind with Sportsman's Guide is that just about every "special" or "bonus" is handled as a coupon code. And you can only use one coupon code per order. The $10 off coupons they send you all the time, and for signing up for Membership? Almost always can beat it with other coupon codes found on the 'Net. For ammo, Free Shipping codes usually trump other discounts, though the day after I ordered 1000 rounds of the Wolf Gold at $308 with free shipping, they put out a $30 off coupon. That would have saved me about $11 over the free shipping coupon I had used. I like SG for ammo because I'm in Washington and shipping from a lot of places really kills things (example, $52 shipping on a 1000 case of Wolf 7.62x39 from AIM). SG's price-based shipping and frequent coupons helps a lot, even when their actual price may be a little higher. And I like the "4 pay" system for members where you pay in 4 monthly installments...helps to cushion the blow of big purchases.
Rob |
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Posted: 4/21/2015 2:42:45 PM EDT
[#24]
The ammo world used to be a simple place. You had much fewer ammo choices, and M193 was the gold standard. Wolf was made in Russia, and that was that. Nowadays, most people still associate "Wolf" with "Tula", but that's clearly not the case anymore. Many people are still not aware that many of these companies are merely importers and that the ammunition they sell under their name could change SIGNIFICANTLY from what they're used to. I, too, though Wolf Gold was still made by PRVI, but now I find out it's Taiwanese manufactured M193. The landscape for ammo is a confused mess when it comes to these importers.
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Posted: 4/22/2015 5:27:56 PM EDT
[#25]
I have killed north of 100 hogs in the last few months with Wolf Gold made in Taiwan, haven't had one problem, very accurate. Accuracy is more important that a bullet fragmentation or any thing like that. Bullet placement trumps all. Read up on professional hunter Bell.
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Posted: 4/22/2015 7:34:42 PM EDT
[#26]
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I, too, though Wolf Gold was still made by PRVI, but now I find out it's Taiwanese manufactured M193. The landscape for ammo is a confused mess when it comes to these importers. Wolf Gold used to be PRVI but they changed vendors. |
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Posted: 4/22/2015 8:07:08 PM EDT
[#27]
If more people realized that Wolf was a marketing company and not a manufacturer, these things wouldn't be as confusing. Wolf still has a black eye from how badly "bad old Wolf Black Box;" performed... It was just Tula (crap) ammunition made for Wolf, but way too many people think "Wolf made crap ammo." They don't make anything, they just sell it.
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Posted: 4/23/2015 12:23:45 AM EDT
[#28]
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If more people realized that Wolf was a marketing company and not a manufacturer, these things wouldn't be as confusing. Wolf still has a black eye from how badly "bad old Wolf Black Box;" performed... It was just Tula (crap) ammunition made for Wolf, but way too many people think "Wolf made crap ammo." They don't make anything, they just sell it. You're not kidding. They could sell nothing but Wolf Gold for 20 years and people would still thin of them for Tula steel cased. I love the Taiwan made ammo. I wonder who the arsenal is ? Surprised we haven't received more from them. We get everything else from Taiwan. |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 12:42:19 AM EDT
[#29]
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You're not kidding. They could sell nothing but Wolf Gold for 20 years and people would still thin of them for Tula steel cased. I love the Taiwan made ammo. I wonder who the arsenal is ? Surprised we haven't received more from them. We get everything else from Taiwan. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If more people realized that Wolf was a marketing company and not a manufacturer, these things wouldn't be as confusing. Wolf still has a black eye from how badly "bad old Wolf Black Box;" performed... It was just Tula (crap) ammunition made for Wolf, but way too many people think "Wolf made crap ammo." They don't make anything, they just sell it. You're not kidding. They could sell nothing but Wolf Gold for 20 years and people would still thin of them for Tula steel cased. I love the Taiwan made ammo. I wonder who the arsenal is ? Surprised we haven't received more from them. We get everything else from Taiwan. I sure hope so. Wolf Gold is the best deal out there, by far. I would hate for there to be a run on it! |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 1:25:38 AM EDT
[#30]
I love the Wolf gold after trying it out last year.Very consistent accurate ammo.
It makes up approx 60% of my stash for 223/5.56 Just ordered another 1040 rounds for $312 shipped. |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 7:41:30 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love the Wolf gold after trying it out last year.Very consistent accurate ammo. It makes up approx 60% of my stash for 223/5.56 Just ordered another 1040 rounds for $312 shipped. |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 9:20:33 AM EDT
[#32]
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Link to deal? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love the Wolf gold after trying it out last year.Very consistent accurate ammo. It makes up approx 60% of my stash for 223/5.56. Just ordered another 1040 rounds for $312 shipped. Link to deal? Check out the Ammo Prices/Availabilty thread here, I just purchased two cases of Wolf Gold (the SKU that ends in CASE) for $300/ea shipped. Tomac |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 11:15:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If more people realized that Wolf was a marketing company and not a manufacturer, these things wouldn't be as confusing. Wolf still has a black eye from how badly "bad old Wolf Black Box;" performed... It was just Tula (crap) ammunition made for Wolf, but way too many people think "Wolf made crap ammo." They don't make anything, they just sell it. Plenty of people got a lot of use out of that Tula ammo - especially when it was selling for $120/1000.  Cheapest I ever bought was a 1000 round case of Barnaul from Wideners for $88. 7.62x39 was going for $77. |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 9:54:24 PM EDT
[#34]
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Have you seen gel tests of Wolf Gold? Last velocity data I saw guys were posting 3200fps from 20" barrels. That is right around where it should be. I just saw some gel data posted about Tula 62gr HP, that fragmentation and velocity was insane. I was shocked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I mean terminal ballistics. Very thick jacket and around 75 fps slower than most M193, so it doesn't fragment well, esp at range. Quoted:
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Ballistics wise, it's a poor performer, but it's good for target ammo. What do you prefer for ballistics on a budget? Quality M193 like Federal, PMC Xtac, IMI, etc (which is just slightly more expensive than wolf gold) are good performers. Believe it or not, tula is even a good performer due to its tendency for early yaw. Have you seen gel tests of Wolf Gold? Last velocity data I saw guys were posting 3200fps from 20" barrels. That is right around where it should be. I just saw some gel data posted about Tula 62gr HP, that fragmentation and velocity was insane. I was shocked. |
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Posted: 4/23/2015 10:08:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Love Wolf Gold, price makes it even better. I have yet to pay over $295/1000 shipped for it recently. Watch SG as well, they've had a few really good deals.
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Posted: 4/24/2015 9:04:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Very nice ammo. Wish I had more.
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Posted: 4/24/2015 9:04:34 AM EDT
[#37]
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do you have a link by chance? To which part. I already provided the link for the velocity data in this thread for Wolf Gold. If you mean the tula - search for Bluefalcon's posts. |
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