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Posted: 8/16/2012 1:50:41 PM EDT
[#1]
FBIT3 is just Trophy Bonded Bear Claws then.
That ZQ3313 looks like a good round. |
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Posted: 8/16/2012 2:52:19 PM EDT
[#2]
InfiniteGrim, thanks for all your hard work. Most appreciated.
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Posted: 8/16/2012 6:58:19 PM EDT
[#3]
The FBIT3 and 3313 are both quite impressive! Really shows the value of a bonded SP. The Mk318 is a bit disappointing looking; thought it would hold together better in a bare gel shot. Sure makes one wonder about it being "barrier-blind".
Once again, thank you for the work InfiniteGrim! Much appreciated. |
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Posted: 8/17/2012 5:54:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
The FBIT3 and 3313 are both quite impressive! Really shows the value of a bonded SP. The Mk318 is a bit disappointing looking; thought it would hold together better in a bare gel shot. Sure makes one wonder about it being "barrier-blind". Once again, thank you for the work InfiniteGrim! Much appreciated. I thought I read that the M318 typically penetrates to something like 17" in bare gel but IG's results seem to contradict that. In my experience with TSX's driven fast enough to shed their petals the shank of the bullet (similar to what is left with the Mk318 after the tip fragments) penetrates to an extreme. For this reason I thought Mk318 would behave the same and this test seems to support that theory. |
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Posted: 8/17/2012 9:12:48 AM EDT
[#5]
I tested an 85gr Nosler BT over 22.5gr of H4198 at a MV of 2625fps from my 16" .25-223 today. Here are some preliminary measurements, I'll section the block tonight if time allows for more exact numbers.
Neck Length = 0.75" Max Cavity = 5.75" @ 4.75" penetration Penetration = 12.5" gel + 1 water jug Retained Weight = 24.2gr Recovered Diameter = .455" Right Side: 
Top: 
Bullet: 
There was significant fragmentation starting almost immediately and continuing along the entire bullet track. The 85gr Nosler looked more like the 87gr Hot-Cor than the 100gr Game King because the frag was larger and easier to see in the gel. It penetrated over 12" but again my block was far too short to catch the bullet. I really need to get that larger mold made soon. |
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Posted: 8/22/2012 12:55:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Finally got around to sectioning the block and taking more accurate measurements. Here's what I found:
Penetration - Cavity 2" - 3.5" 4" - 5.625 6" - 5.5" 8" - 3.875" 10" - 1" I was right about the short neck length and the fragmentation, which you'll see below, was more impressive with this load than with the 100gr SGK. Of course, penetration was less and retained weight was less due ot this as well. Here are the pics: 0"-2" 
2"-4" 
4"-6" 
6"-8" 
8"-10" 
10"-12" 
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:19:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Great reporting.
I have been able to recover base of Mk318 and Mk319 in 5 gallon nylon water buckets. The Mk318 copper solid base weighs 31 grains and the Mk319 over 50 grains. (From memory. Will post exact weight and diameter later). http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/atillman/Mk318319Large.jpg Mk318 and Mk319 bases. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/atillman/Mk318319recoveredLarge.jpg Mk 318 fired from 16 inch barre1-9 l at 2,925 fps about. 7 yards. Mk 319 from FN 21 inch barrel, 2975 fps. The Mk318 drops coyotes better than the slower 75 grain Hornady BTHP, but both wqork. Mk 318 better on periferal hits and at longer range. I had never seen gelatin pictures before. It gets alot done in 4 inches penetration. thanks! |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:04:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Great reporting. I have been able to recover base of Mk318 and Mk319 in 5 gallon nylon water buckets. The Mk318 copper solid base weighs 31 grains and the Mk319 over 50 grains. (From memory. Will post exact weight and diameter later). http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/atillman/Mk318319Large.jpg Mk318 and Mk319 bases. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/atillman/Mk318319recoveredLarge.jpg Mk 318 fired from 16 inch barre1-9 l at 2,925 fps about. 7 yards. Mk 319 from FN 21 inch barrel, 2975 fps. The Mk318 drops coyotes better than the slower 75 grain Hornady BTHP, but both wqork. Mk 318 better on periferal hits and at longer range. I had never seen gelatin pictures before. It gets alot done in 4 inches penetration. thanks! Thank You very much for posting that 
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Posted: 8/23/2012 7:06:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Great reporting. I have been able to recover base of Mk318 and Mk319 in 5 gallon nylon water buckets. The Mk318 copper solid base weighs 31 grains and the Mk319 over 50 grains. (From memory. Will post exact weight and diameter later). http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/atillman/Mk318319Large.jpg Mk318 and Mk319 bases. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/atillman/Mk318319recoveredLarge.jpg Mk 318 fired from 16 inch barre1-9 l at 2,925 fps about. 7 yards. Mk 319 from FN 21 inch barrel, 2975 fps. The Mk318 drops coyotes better than the slower 75 grain Hornady BTHP, but both wqork. Mk 318 better on periferal hits and at longer range. I had never seen gelatin pictures before. It gets alot done in 4 inches penetration. thanks! Nice! I took apart a Mk318 one time and IIRC I got 32grs from that, so that slug is 99% original. Dig the Mk319 as I load these and they do quite well on paper. Ever tried the 319's on game? |
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Posted: 8/25/2012 2:33:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Stump,
I have not used the 762 Mk319 on game. Will try to do so this year on a couple deer. (I have land owner preference tags so can harvest 1-3). Ive used the Mk318 on 3 coyotes. 85, 90 and 150 yards lsed in daylight night after shooting them. I use 20 inch AR with night vision. With the Hornady, which is original moly coated match ammo, Im only getting 2700 fps. Exit holes sid3ways are typically 1 to maybe 1 1/2 inches. THey drop w one shot about 50% of time. May need quick follow up, but they die obvisouly without it. with Mk 318 the two I shot behind sholder went down and stayed down, more like w a 22-250 and 55 grain SP. The longer range shot hit rear leg and bullet made a large exit and anchored coyote which was spinning around, for finishing shot. Ive made similar shots w the 75 grain and they run off until they hit a fence and I can shoot into the body. Peripheral shots are sometimes only ones I ve got due to terrain, or moving animal. It has given me some faith in the Mk318. I prefer it to 55 grain Ballilstic tip which is quite slow to expand and does not have much penetration either. Of course, wed all like 600 yard accuracy but the way Im using it, 150 - 200 is a long shot. |
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Posted: 8/25/2012 2:38:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Corected Mk 318 and Mk 319 data.
Recovered weight and diameter. 51 grains and .32 diameter Mk 319. 34.1 gr Mk318 and .24 - .26 diameter. Frags on both. |
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Posted: 8/27/2012 7:16:59 PM EDT
[#12]
I shot a 75gr V-Max at 2853fps from my 16" .25-223 into a gel block today. Unfortunately my camera is not working so no pics yet, but I'll get them as soon as possible.
Not surprisingly the V-Max did not penetrate 12" (the only one so far from the .25-223 that I've tested). Here are the quick measurements: Neck Length - 0" Max Penetration - 8.75" Max Cavity - 5.75" @ 6.75" of penetration I didn't see any large piece that I would consider the core still intact. It appeared that the bullet completely fragmented into small pieces. That is great for varmints, but clearly not a useful bullet for medium game hunting or self defense. The BB penetrated 4.25" this time, which is on the upper end for calibration, so I may be nearing the end of this block's usable life. |
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Posted: 8/31/2012 6:17:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Since testing is done for now, I just wanted to bring up M855A1 again.
I'm not sure if it was a mistake but there was a PDF released about M855A1 marked "Approved for Public Release, distribution is unlimited" In it there is a section that has a page about cardoor and windshield penetration. There are also pictures of ballistics gel tests. Well that PDF has disappeared, but there is a new one in its place with just the cardoor and windshield diagrams on it and doesnt show the gel tests. I find it odd that they retracted this info. |
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Posted: 8/31/2012 6:24:42 PM EDT
[#14]
InfiniteGrim: I haven't looked at this thread in quiet a while, and it looks like you're got some great test results. If you don't mind, I'd like to put the info together on a web page and host it on the Arfcom ammo server to link to. I'll give you credit of course and mark the pics as being your property. Let me know if you're OK with that.
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Posted: 8/31/2012 6:37:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Go right ahead, if you want the full size pictures I can send them to you.
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Posted: 8/31/2012 8:12:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
InfiniteGrim: I haven't looked at this thread in quiet a while, and it looks like you're got some great test results. If you don't mind, I'd like to put the info together on a web page and host it on the Arfcom ammo server to link to. I'll give you credit of course and mark the pics as being your property. Let me know if you're OK with that. 
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Posted: 9/1/2012 7:10:18 AM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 9/2/2012 4:40:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Go right ahead, if you want the full size pictures I can send them to you. [email protected] I IM'd you a link to the file, not sure how well 24mb would work in an email. |
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Posted: 9/3/2012 1:04:03 PM EDT
[#19]
This 55gr Fed Gameking is our duty round. I always suspected it ha limited penetration and I believe this was one of our requirents, being terrified of the stigma of over-penetration. We used to laugh at the picture of a prairy dog on the box. Thanks for sharing. Great work!
Quoted:
Federal Premium LE: .223 55gr Sierra Gameking BTHP Tractical TRU http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/InfiniteGrim/GEL%20TESTS/IMG_8046_7_8_tonemapped55grTRUBTHP.jpg http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/InfiniteGrim/GEL%20TESTS/IMG_8063.jpg |
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Posted: 9/4/2012 5:08:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
This 55gr Fed Gameking is our duty round. I always suspected it ha limited penetration and I believe this was one of our requirents, being terrified of the stigma of over-penetration. We used to laugh at the picture of a prairy dog on the box. Thanks for sharing. Great work! Quoted:
Federal Premium LE: .223 55gr Sierra Gameking BTHP Tractical TRU http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/InfiniteGrim/GEL%20TESTS/IMG_8046_7_8_tonemapped55grTRUBTHP.jpg http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/InfiniteGrim/GEL%20TESTS/IMG_8063.jpg This is all too common, even today when there is a mountain of scientific evidence against this position. We use the 55gr TRU, but the version with the exposed lead tip, not the BTHP, and it suffers from the same problems. Fortunately, my admin finally saw the light (after I submitted a 300+ page proposal with all the relevent testing and data) and we just placed an order for Gold Dots a couple weeks ago. |
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Posted: 9/5/2012 1:07:15 PM EDT
[#21]
We have had numerous OIS with officers using the Fed 55 Gameking and it seems to work well enough based on the anecdotal date. But, I also suspect that most perps go down due to psychological reasons as much as physical incapacitaion. I have brought up the issue of limited pen. and the numerous better rounds with our range staff and I was treated like a heretic. I may as well have been asking for a 203 and HEDP rounds for Patrol...I'm just happy to have something. It took us a LOT of begging to be issued rifles.
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Posted: 9/7/2012 10:54:23 AM EDT
[#22]
If you would like some of the information I received through research I can provide some and point you to the correct source for the rest, if you are still looking to improve what you carry. IM me if interested.
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Posted: 9/7/2012 12:10:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
We have had numerous OIS with officers using the Fed 55 Gameking and it seems to work well enough based on the anecdotal date. But, I also suspect that most perps go down due to psychological reasons as much as physical incapacitaion. I have brought up the issue of limited pen. and the numerous better rounds with our range staff and I was treated like a heretic. I may as well have been asking for a 203 and HEDP rounds for Patrol...I'm just happy to have something. It took us a LOT of begging to be issued rifles. Just remember that shot placement is KEY. There is a PDF floating around about a perp who took dozens of rounds. Including 5.56 GD's and 9mm GD's, I think there was also .40 too. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 2:34:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Looks like Sam has 55gr gold dot and 55gr GMX in stock. You should take him up on his offer and have send you a box or 2 for testing. Another good round is Prvi 75gr match which was tested by Doc some time ago and found it comparable to 75gr TAP. Ive tested it myself in water jugs and its fragments pretty violently with good penetration.
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Posted: 9/28/2012 4:22:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Hey InfiniteGrim, Ive got some Wolf .223 62gr hollowpoint. Ive shot a few of these at phonebooks and water jugs to test, and they appear to fragment spectacularly. I realize youve been testing good ammo, but would you be willing to waste a gel or two on testing some crap ammo?
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Posted: 9/28/2012 5:50:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Hey InfiniteGrim, Ive got some Wolf .223 62gr hollowpoint. Ive shot a few of these at phonebooks and water jugs to test, and they appear to fragment spectacularly. I realize youve been testing good ammo, but would you be willing to waste a gel or two on testing some crap ammo? I have some Silver bear 62gr JHP stashed away, and if your talking about WPA, its the same thing. I tested the silver bear over a year ago when I was first experimenting making gel and it did fragment, but the results shouldn't really be compared to my "calibrated" results in this thread. I have 5-6 projectiles I need to reload to try out, and I will definetly be trying some cheap ammo too. Here are the images that I got (look how much of a noob I used to be  )
On the block used in the links, it was 7" per section, so only 14" total Link 1 Left (exit) side Right Side (Entrance) |
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Posted: 10/8/2012 12:38:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? |
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:38:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! |
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Posted: 10/8/2012 6:18:31 PM EDT
[#29]
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M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! Sweet, now if only they would surplus it... |
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Posted: 10/8/2012 9:50:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
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M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! Sweet, now if only they would surplus it... For some reason it's a "classified" item. Don't expect to see it for sale any time soon. Even InfiniteGrim was "encouraged" to take down the pics of his gel test. And yeah, the gel shots looked pretty good! |
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Posted: 10/8/2012 11:10:24 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
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M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! Sweet, now if only they would surplus it... For some reason it's a "classified" item. Don't expect to see it for sale any time soon. Even InfiniteGrim was "encouraged" to take down the pics of his gel test. And yeah, the gel shots looked pretty good! My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it would raise too many questions with the Hague Convention folks. You know, with that nice bronze looking tip and all, it looks a lot like a V-Max bullet, even one of the old Remington Bronze points. I know it's different, but looking at the gel pics, it's hard not to draw similarities. It does however also have the benefit of "acceptable" penetration. |
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Posted: 10/9/2012 3:25:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
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M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! Sweet, now if only they would surplus it... For some reason it's a "classified" item. Don't expect to see it for sale any time soon. Even InfiniteGrim was "encouraged" to take down the pics of his gel test. And yeah, the gel shots looked pretty good! My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it would raise too many questions with the Hague Convention folks. You know, with that nice bronze looking tip and all, it looks a lot like a V-Max bullet, even one of the old Remington Bronze points. I know it's different, but looking at the gel pics, it's hard not to draw similarities. It does however also have the benefit of "acceptable" penetration. They wouldnt have spent a decade developing a round and ordering it in the hundreds of millions without it being JAG friendly. Only the Army would try to keep secret something they intent to shoot at people and not recover for the sake of "secrecy." |
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Posted: 10/9/2012 8:22:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
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M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! Sweet, now if only they would surplus it... For some reason it's a "classified" item. Don't expect to see it for sale any time soon. Even InfiniteGrim was "encouraged" to take down the pics of his gel test. And yeah, the gel shots looked pretty good! My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it would raise too many questions with the Hague Convention folks. You know, with that nice bronze looking tip and all, it looks a lot like a V-Max bullet, even one of the old Remington Bronze points. I know it's different, but looking at the gel pics, it's hard not to draw similarities. It does however also have the benefit of "acceptable" penetration. They wouldnt have spent a decade developing a round and ordering it in the hundreds of millions without it being JAG friendly. Only the Army would try to keep secret something they intent to shoot at people and not recover for the sake of "secrecy." Pretty much what I was thinking. "Secret" just because it's relatively new issue. Give it a few years and LC, or whoever's producing it, will have it for sale. |
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Posted: 10/10/2012 6:06:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
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M855A1 EPR EDITED due to classified nature of the information... I missed it, what happened? It looked like a "varmint" round, with "extensive" penetration to boot! Sweet, now if only they would surplus it... For some reason it's a "classified" item. Don't expect to see it for sale any time soon. Even InfiniteGrim was "encouraged" to take down the pics of his gel test. And yeah, the gel shots looked pretty good! My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it would raise too many questions with the Hague Convention folks. You know, with that nice bronze looking tip and all, it looks a lot like a V-Max bullet, even one of the old Remington Bronze points. I know it's different, but looking at the gel pics, it's hard not to draw similarities. It does however also have the benefit of "acceptable" penetration. They wouldnt have spent a decade developing a round and ordering it in the hundreds of millions without it being JAG friendly. Only the Army would try to keep secret something they intent to shoot at people and not recover for the sake of "secrecy." Pretty much what I was thinking. "Secret" just because it's relatively new issue. Give it a few years and LC, or whoever's producing it, will have it for sale. Keep in mind we didn't sign on the the Hague Convention, so are not legally bound by it by international law. We do however try to abide by it more as a matter of "good faith". The results of the testing are not truly "secret", but it may bring on unnecessary "attention" that we could do without right now. OK, time to take of the tinfoil had, haha. |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 10:26:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Hey IG, given the interest in the Hornady 55gr SP bullets, if I sent you a few, would you be willing to test them? I'm pretty sure I've got some of the "training" marked rounds left, but they look identical to my SP component bullets. I can also drop a few reloads in the bag if you want, they are loaded at 24.5gr of WC844.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 11:16:38 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Hey IG, given the interest in the Hornady 55gr SP bullets, if I sent you a few, would you be willing to test them? I'm pretty sure I've got some of the "training" marked rounds left, but they look identical to my SP component bullets. I can also drop a few reloads in the bag if you want, they are loaded at 24.5gr of WC844. Sure, but I wont be able to test anything until Late December, early January.
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