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Posted: 10/7/2010 7:43:38 AM EDT
[#1]
Any idea why they'd order two very similar rounds, instead of just sticking to one? They're both bonded JSP's.
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Posted: 10/7/2010 7:53:25 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Any idea why they'd order two very similar rounds, instead of just sticking to one? They're both bonded JSP's. Two suppliers in case one has a hiccup? I dunno otherwise... |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 7:56:03 AM EDT
[#3]
Interesting! Isn't the non-bonded Trophy Bear Claw what the military is ordering?
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:08:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Isn't the non-bonded Trophy Bear Claw what the military is ordering? No. 
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:17:39 AM EDT
[#5]
So how many million rounds does this appear to be anyway?
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:25:15 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any idea why they'd order two very similar rounds, instead of just sticking to one? They're both bonded JSP's. Two suppliers in case one has a hiccup? I dunno otherwise... Production capacity might be an issue too. Good e-mail, thanks for sharing. Are either of these available as components? Midway only lists the standard Win 64gr Power Point. I don't think that's the same bullet. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:28:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: So how many million rounds does this appear to be anyway? I dunno. The TBBC ain't cheap - maybe $1/round? Figure on about 100 million or so. Just a guess though. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:29:24 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: Isn't the non-bonded Trophy Bear Claw what the military is ordering? No. http://www.box.net/shared/static/2v9eh6akvt.jpg I could have sworn you posted a picture of the bullet, cut in half where you said the core literally fell out of the jacket. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:33:44 AM EDT
[#9]
So why does the FBI need 100 million rounds?
 AND why don't they just procure mil surp if thats what they want to run?
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:39:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Isn't the non-bonded Trophy Bear Claw what the military is ordering? No. http://www.box.net/shared/static/2v9eh6akvt.jpg I could have sworn you posted a picture of the bullet, cut in half where you said the core literally fell out of the jacket. I did. Mk318 Mod 0 is a non-bonded bullet, but it is not a "non-bonded Trophy Bear Claw." |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 9:59:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: So why does the FBI need 100 million rounds? AND why don't they just procure mil surp if thats what they want to run?Because there are no milsurp loads that meet their specs. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 10:09:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So why does the FBI need 100 million rounds? AND why don't they just procure mil surp if thats what they want to run?Because there are no milsurp loads that meet their specs.  OK,
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Posted: 10/7/2010 10:31:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So why does the FBI need 100 million rounds? AND why don't they just procure mil surp if thats what they want to run?Because there are no milsurp loads that meet their specs. OK, These are both SP loads which have never been fielded by the military in the first place. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 12:22:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Very interesting.
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Posted: 10/7/2010 1:25:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Even before I finished the article I assumed it was Federal T3's, that explains the $97 mil price tag. My agency just ordered some and the LEO price.....get ready for this......was $32 for a box of
20 rds. Thats right, $32 for a box of 20 
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Posted: 10/7/2010 2:51:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Got this in an email from Doctor Roberts yesterday: The FBI has completed their testing process and awarded a $97 million dollar 5.56 mm ammunition contract. This award is now public information and appears unique in several ways. Besides being perhaps the largest ammunition contract in FBI history, it is also the first time the FBI has mandated a true 5.56 mm pressure loading, rather than the typical anemic .223 pressure loadings that have generally been marketed to LE agencies. The 5.56 mm load offers approximately an extra 200 fps––helping performance out of short barrel weapons and enhancing function when rifles are dirty or in dusty conditions. The new FBI contract for the first time required that the ammunition be packaged on stripper clips to aid in more rapid loading of magazines. Finally, it is the first multi-award carbine ammo contract for the FBI––both Federal Cartridge and Winchester were judged to offer ammunition which met the contract criteria. Numerous other Federal LE agencies are authorized to purchase off this contract.
The 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP load is XM556FBIT3. The 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP is Q3313 on stripper clips/RA556B in 20 rd boxes. Both loads are the best barrier blind 5.56 mm loads ever produced for LE use; they offer outstanding terminal performance, even after first defeating intermediate barriers like vehicle windshields. How do these loads compare to MK318 mod 0 with regards to being barrier-blind? If Dr. Roberts says they are the best for LE use, and LE's usually already use ammo that is better than what the military has to use, is it safe to say these loads offer better terminal performance than the MK318 mod 0 after defeating intermediate barriers? |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 3:06:11 PM EDT
[#17]
IIRC from what he's posted before, they are superior: Mk318 is the best choice if you're military and restricted in what you can use, but these loads are better.
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Posted: 10/7/2010 3:10:14 PM EDT
[#18]
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load??
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Posted: 10/7/2010 5:41:31 PM EDT
[#19]
I wonder what happened to the Speer Gold Dot 64gr 5.56 pressure...I'm sure it was tested.
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Posted: 10/7/2010 6:14:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load?? very similar, almost identical, check the Molon tacked threads, I believe he did a comparison not to long ago and they were pretty much twins |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 6:17:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
I wonder what happened to the Speer Gold Dot 64gr 5.56 pressure...I'm sure it was tested. That load has proven to be todays ammo version of unobtainium. I order for my LEO agency, I called the one place that had them on their website and they said they have had 19,000 rds of it on order from ATK.........since MARCH OF 2008  . As far as I'm concerned that ammo simply does not exist at this time
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Posted: 10/7/2010 6:18:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wonder what happened to the Speer Gold Dot 64gr 5.56 pressure...I'm sure it was tested. That load has proven to be todays ammo version of unobtainium. I order for my LEO agency, I called the one place that had them on their website and they said they have had 19,000 rds of it on order from ATK.........since MARCH OF 2008 . As far as I'm concerned that ammo simply does not exist at this time
You're not missing anything. Stick with the .223 version. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 6:30:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Molon thanks for the info I live about a mile from where the 64gr GD/Speer is manufactured. I have only been able to get the .223 pressure.
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Posted: 10/7/2010 6:57:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load?? very similar, almost identical, check the Molon tacked threads, I believe he did a comparison not to long ago and they were pretty much twins You are kidding right?
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Posted: 10/7/2010 7:04:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wonder what happened to the Speer Gold Dot 64gr 5.56 pressure...I'm sure it was tested. That load has proven to be todays ammo version of unobtainium. I order for my LEO agency, I called the one place that had them on their website and they said they have had 19,000 rds of it on order from ATK.........since MARCH OF 2008 . As far as I'm concerned that ammo simply does not exist at this time
Our agency is able to get this without a problem..... Heck there is a 500 round case of it on Gunbroker right now for $300. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 7:48:34 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wonder what happened to the Speer Gold Dot 64gr 5.56 pressure...I'm sure it was tested. That load has proven to be todays ammo version of unobtainium. I order for my LEO agency, I called the one place that had them on their website and they said they have had 19,000 rds of it on order from ATK.........since MARCH OF 2008 . As far as I'm concerned that ammo simply does not exist at this time
Our agency is able to get this without a problem..... Heck there is a 500 round case of it on Gunbroker right now for $300. No, there is not. They are .223 Rem, not 5.56x45mm loadings. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:15:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load?? very similar, almost identical, check the Molon tacked threads, I believe he did a comparison not to long ago and they were pretty much twins You are kidding right? No, he is not kidding. |
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:23:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wonder what happened to the Speer Gold Dot 64gr 5.56 pressure...I'm sure it was tested. That load has proven to be todays ammo version of unobtainium. I order for my LEO agency, I called the one place that had them on their website and they said they have had 19,000 rds of it on order from ATK.........since MARCH OF 2008 . As far as I'm concerned that ammo simply does not exist at this time
Our agency is able to get this without a problem..... Heck there is a 500 round case of it on Gunbroker right now for $300. No, there is not. They are .223 Rem, not 5.56x45mm loadings. Oops!!! I retract my statement. I read over the 5.56 pressure.  
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Posted: 10/7/2010 8:52:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load?? very similar, almost identical, check the Molon tacked threads, I believe he did a comparison not to long ago and they were pretty much twins You are kidding right? No, he is not kidding. OK you lost me... identical?? twins??? Fusion 
TBBC 
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Posted: 10/7/2010 9:32:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load?? very similar, almost identical, check the Molon tacked threads, I believe he did a comparison not to long ago and they were pretty much twins You are kidding right? No, he is not kidding. OK you lost me... identical?? twins??? Fusion http://www.box.net/shared/static/tmnau2vyq8.jpg TBBC http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/SP1725.jpg OK, miscommunication. The Fusion is similar to the Gold Dot in construction. The Gold Dot is similar to the TBBC in performance. 
Raw data courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts |
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Posted: 10/8/2010 6:30:17 AM EDT
[#31]
So...what would be the equivilant bullet component for reloading?
Is the Winchester 64 Grain Power Point, which is available commercially be the same? |
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Posted: 10/8/2010 9:50:12 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the bear claws similar to the Fusion load?? very similar, almost identical, check the Molon tacked threads, I believe he did a comparison not to long ago and they were pretty much twins You are kidding right? No, he is not kidding. OK you lost me... identical?? twins??? Fusion http://www.box.net/shared/static/tmnau2vyq8.jpg TBBC http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/SP1725.jpg OK, miscommunication. The Fusion is similar to the Gold Dot in construction. The Gold Dot is similar to the TBBC in performance. http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv81/gocartmozart2/64golddotvs62tbbcgeltestsresized01.jpg Raw data courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts Yeah what he said, thats what i meant
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Posted: 10/8/2010 10:12:40 AM EDT
[#33]
tag
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Posted: 10/8/2010 5:53:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
So...what would be the equivilant bullet component for reloading? Is the Winchester 64 Grain Power Point, which is available commercially be the same? Excellent .224 caliber projectile, but it isn't bonded (which shouldn't really be an issue for home defense). I have bought fusion bullets online before, not pulled, so they are out there. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/8/2010 7:16:31 PM EDT
[#35]
The closest you can get AFAIK is the Federal 64 Gr. Fusion.
I don't think they are available as components "per se" but the come out on surplus as seconds every now and then. I got mine from surplusammo.com ETA: Supposedly they were not seconds but the cannelure was pretty inconsistent. Hardly an issue with Lee FCD though... |
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Posted: 10/9/2010 11:08:10 AM EDT
[#36]
The picture of the TBBC above shows expansion. Are these barrier blind loads considered to be fragmenting rounds or expanding rounds? I would assume since not bonded (MK318) it would show fragmentation over expansion.
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Posted: 10/9/2010 12:01:30 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: The picture of the TBBC above shows expansion. Are these barrier blind loads considered to be fragmenting rounds or expanding rounds? I would assume since not bonded (MK318) it would show fragmentation over expansion. They're all expanding rounds. Barrier penetration and thin-walled fragmenting bullets are mutually exclusive (at the present time at least). |
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Posted: 10/9/2010 7:27:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Again it seems the same result / want is less fragmentation and more weight retention. Thus more penetration. Regardless of bore diameter.
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Posted: 10/9/2010 7:51:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Is BVAC using the TBBC in their 62gr bonded load?
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Posted: 10/9/2010 9:11:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Even before I finished the article I assumed it was Federal T3's, that explains the $97 mil price tag. My agency just ordered some and the LEO price.....get ready for this......was $32 for a box of 20 rds. Thats right, $32 for a box of 20 Now there is how they are going to keep the bottom line fat now that regular types got all the ammo they need or can afford and price has to get lower to move off the shelf.........create some spec that is just slightly different than what is available ........dead is dead and with that many rounds even with practice is lots of people to kill with it and the old stuff..wonder if they will sell off the millions of stashed rounds now as surplus...... |
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Posted: 10/10/2010 9:24:50 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Is BVAC using the TBBC in their 62gr bonded load? The guy from surplusammo IIRC answered a similar question I had and said it was a bullet by Electrobond bullets. Certainly not TBBC bullets. |
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Posted: 10/10/2010 9:32:05 AM EDT
[#42]
I'll take a case.
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Posted: 10/11/2010 2:06:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Is BVAC using the TBBC in their 62gr bonded load? Yes it is 62gr TBBC and the 64gr is the Gold Dot from BVAC. Here is a email from BVAC Chad, The bullet is a bonded Federal Bear Claw and it is loaded to 223 pressure and specification. Best Regards, Del Crawford From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: .223 62grain @cheaperthandirt Does this item BVAC BV5.56-8N 62gr use a bonded bullet or a jsp type bullet and is loaded to 5.56mm pressure thanks Chad |
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Posted: 10/12/2010 6:24:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is BVAC using the TBBC in their 62gr bonded load? Yes it is 62gr TBBC and the 64gr is the Gold Dot from BVAC. Here is a email from BVAC Chad, The bullet is a bonded Federal Bear Claw and it is loaded to 223 pressure and specification. Best Regards, Del Crawford From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: .223 62grain @cheaperthandirt Does this item BVAC BV5.56-8N 62gr use a bonded bullet or a jsp type bullet and is loaded to 5.56mm pressure thanks Chad Cool, on our state contract, I can get that for my agency CHEAP compared to the Federal load. Me thinks a little T&E will start soon. |
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Posted: 10/21/2010 1:51:12 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any idea why they'd order two very similar rounds, instead of just sticking to one? They're both bonded JSP's. Two suppliers in case one has a hiccup? I dunno otherwise... Production capacity might be an issue too. Good e-mail, thanks for sharing. Are either of these available as components? Midway only lists the standard Win 64gr Power Point. I don't think that's the same bullet. This May I spoke face to face with a rep from ATK/Federal about how difficult it is for LE agencies to get the LE223T1 (about a year lead time). He said Federal was working on a dedicated .223/5.56 production line to help with the high end ammo (hunting/competition/duty). He hoped the line would be up and running by 1st quarter 2011. |
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