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Posted: 6/4/2010 12:21:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2010 12:57:02 PM EST by iCarbine]
I'm considering the following for home defense:

Federal 55 gr BSP
Federal 62 gr BSP
Federal 64 gr TRU SP

(Added: Federal 64 gr Power-Shok, Speer LE 64 gr Gold Dot, Winchester 64 gr Power-Point)

I've read all the tacked threads several times.

Barrier penetration is not a factor for me (however, I wonder if its better to have the capability and not need it than need it and not have it), but I'm not fully sold on fragmentation. It seems to me that, even with the 68-77 gr OTMs, fragmentation is still a less reliable phenomenon than controlled expansion. Of course I could be wrong.

There has been lots of talk on the forums regarding the above three (+ 3 added) rounds. I'm interested in another as well, and can't find any information about it.

Does anyone here have experience with the Hornady TAP 62 gr Barrier loading in .223 or .5.56? Hornady's website lists the following for the .223 loading in bare gelatin from a 16" barrel:
Vel: 2758 fps
Pen: 15.75"
Max Cav: 6" @ 5" of penetration
Neck: .5"
Ret. Weight: 37 gr

ammunitiontogo.com offers this load for $17.95/box (same as 64 gr TRU).

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Also, out of all those listed, what would you choose as a home defense load? May also be used for camp security and some hunting of Texas Whitetails, hogs (within reason) and predators.
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Posted: 6/4/2010 12:30:16 PM EST
Tagged.

Ive always wondered why we would want ammo to frag. I never hear about this in any other round other than .223.
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Posted: 6/4/2010 4:16:47 PM EST
55gr. Hornady TAP works well. You want it to frag and cause internal damage and not over penetrate. I have first hand experience with this round.
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Posted: 6/4/2010 4:41:41 PM EST
I understand that the polymer tipped bullets can cause nasty wounds. However, from the evidence available, those wounds tend to be shallow, therefore, I'm interested in controlled expansion along with sufficient penetration to reliably hit vital organs/CNS.
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Posted: 6/4/2010 7:19:03 PM EST
How ironic that you just made this post today. On the way home tonight I stopped buy my local fun shop and ended up buying several boxes of this exact round, Hornady TAP 62 gr Barrier in .223.

I get the frangible vs. controlled expansion thing and think the same way. While I'm on average a fan of Hornady products, it does bother me that this round only has a retained weight of 37 gr from the original 62. That's a 40% loss. I did a quick look at Hornady's site and all their TAP ammo in .223/5.56 has similar numbers.

Compare this to say Hornady TAP Barrier Interbond in .308 165 gr. This round has a 152.8 gr retained weight, that's 92.6%!!!! Why can't they do that in .223?

FWIW, for home defense, my 1st go to option is a 12 ga. pump w/ low recoil controlled flight 00 buck. Very little to go wrong and true one shot stops. 2nd go to is a .40 hand gun. For hunting or camp security as you say, yes, .223 is a good choice. My $.02.

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Posted: 6/4/2010 7:26:31 PM EST
Speer Gold Dot (Bonded Round) has good retained weight and is the best round I have seen going through windshields.
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Posted: 6/5/2010 6:54:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2010 7:06:42 AM EST by Molon]
Originally Posted By rcdice:


FWIW, for home defense, my 1st go to option is a 12 ga. pump w/ low recoil controlled flight 00 buck. Very little to go wrong and true one shot stops.



No such thing.

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Posted: 6/5/2010 6:55:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By 191145:
55gr. Hornady TAP . . . .


. . . fails to meet the FBI's minimum penetration requirements.

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Posted: 6/5/2010 6:59:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2010 7:00:28 AM EST by Molon]
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Tagged.

Ive always wondered why we would want ammo to frag. I never hear about this in any other round other than .223.


Because a fragmenting round in .223/5.56 casues a far greater amount of tissue damage than a nonfragmenting round and therefore has the greatest potential for the rapid physiological incapacitation of an aggressor.

All that is necessary for Trolls to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.

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Posted: 6/5/2010 7:02:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2010 8:15:02 AM EST by Molon]
Originally Posted By iCarbine:

It seems to me that, even with the . . . 77 gr OTMs, fragmentation is still a less reliable phenomenon than controlled expansion. Of course I could be wrong.



You are wrong. See my above post.

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Posted: 6/5/2010 7:06:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By MK402:
Speer Gold Dot (Bonded Round) has good retained weight and is the best round I have seen going through windshields.









Courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts
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Posted: 6/5/2010 7:14:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2010 7:26:14 AM EST by Molon]
Originally Posted By iCarbine:


Also, out of all those listed, what would you choose as a home defense load? May also be used for camp security and some hunting of Texas Whitetails, hogs (within reason) and predators.


None of them.

From Dr. G.K. Roberts:

"If your expected engagement scenarios are at typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then either 5.56 mm or .223 SAAMI pressure loads are fine. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices."



NATO pressure Nosler 77 grain OTM from a 20" barrel

courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts




Courtesy of B&T Ammo Labs
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Posted: 6/5/2010 8:42:12 AM EST
iCarbine,

If I were you, I'd read this and pick one of the recommended loads:http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

If you are hunting deer and hogs, then I'd prefer a non-fragmenting, barrier blind 5.56 mm load or jumping up to a 6.8mm upper.
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Posted: 6/5/2010 10:41:03 AM EST
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Posted: 6/5/2010 11:01:10 AM EST
Thanks for all of the replies. My carbine has a 1 in 9" twist. Since my weapon was purchased with self-defense in mind, I'm not overly concerned with the hunting capability just yet.

I was initially interested in the 55-64 gr bullets for defense in order to make practice with 55 gr FMJ more realistic. However, with continued research I've come to accept that the heavier OTMs are the best performers in regards to physiological incapacitation.

I'm going to buy a few boxes of 75 gr TAP and see how they perform out of my barrel. If they don't prove to stabilize, I'll drop down to Black Hills 68 gr Hornady OTM. Assuming either performs sufficiently, what is the wisdom behind continuing to use 55 gr FMJ for training/practice? Will the POA/POI be similiar enough for training purposes?

I do not want to use lacquered steel cased ammunition.

It appears that I am wrong regarding the consistancy of fragmentation in the heavier OTMs. They seem to be far superior to M193/M855 in regards to fragmentation probablility.

Once again, thank you for your help.
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Posted: 6/5/2010 4:24:05 PM EST
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Posted: 6/5/2010 8:27:54 PM EST
I have shot and killed deer with both 55 grain tap and 75 grain tap. Both rounds performed exactly as advertised. The inside of the chest cavity on the one shot with the 55 grain was like red jello and did not exit. The 75 grain broke ribs on exit and had good damage for a longer path, but less overall damage. Either would be fine, just depends on what you want. Personally, for me, I am not willing to risk exit on an intruder if I can help it so I have 55 grain tap loaded in my HD rifle. I have complete confidence that if I do my job, the ammo will do its job. Keep in mind that the FBI test criteria was established for LE operations which are not necessarily the same concerns as one might have for HD. I felt I needed to test both rounds because my agency issues 75 TAP, but some of the guys carry old SP 1's so they get 55's. of course YMMV
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Posted: 6/5/2010 8:44:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2010 8:55:02 PM EST by DocGKR]
One of the large full time SWAT teams here uses Hornady 75 gr OTM on entries, 62 gr Fed Tac bonded JSP (LE223T3) for barriers, while patrol officers have 64 gr Win JSP (RA223R2) from the state contract––everyone used 55 gr FMJ for practice; out to 100 yds or so, there is minimal POI difference, especially when shooting fast, on multiple targets, while on the move.

With a 1/9 twist AR, I personally would be inclined to use the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2), along with the Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr bonded JSP, Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP, or possibly the Barnes 55 gr TSX. Other options include the 69 gr SMK OTM, 68 gr Hornady OTM, Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, and Hornady 62 gr JSP.

Whether it is a civilian defending his home or a SWAT officer engaging a bad guy during an entry, the physiological requirements for incapacitation remain the same...
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Posted: 6/5/2010 9:37:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2010 9:47:06 PM EST by bcsoeod]



Outstanding info, I think highly technical data like this is the best thing about ARFCOM IMO.

So here's my question for the guys in the know. I have a Robinson XCR mini in 5.56 with a 9in barrel (i know, i know really short 5.56 barrel = ) I've read the defensive ammo FAQ until my eyes went . So Doc or Molon what ammo would you recommend for the above mentioned rifle for patrol/HD work? I've had my magazines loaded with the 60gr TAP (vmax bullet) but after reading all of your material I'm starting to get the picture that may not be the optimum choice so could you please toss out your suggestions?

Thanx for all you guys do for us.
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Posted: 6/5/2010 9:38:50 PM EST
62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2), along with the Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr bonded JSP, Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP, or possibly the Barnes 45, 53, or 55 gr TSX.
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Posted: 6/6/2010 1:53:40 AM EST
Now that we've established which appears to be best, where to buy any? The Federal T3 is basically unobtanium for us civvies who don't have a LEO connection.
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Posted: 6/6/2010 5:04:03 AM EST
Great info developing in this thread. Sending people to the FAQ is great, but new relevant info with shared experiences is what a forum should be all about.

Great list to work from for future testing. Always got to test any round you are planning on using for function in YOUR gun. Good Stuff!!
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Posted: 6/6/2010 5:19:28 PM EST




I know this next question has barely anything to do with the thread topic, but why does Hornady advertise their TAP .223 ammo with the VMAX bullets towards LEO and HD work when it clearly is not the most optimum choice for that??
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Posted: 6/6/2010 5:34:57 PM EST
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Posted: 6/6/2010 9:44:54 PM EST
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Posted: 6/7/2010 6:51:52 AM EST
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Posted: 6/10/2010 7:48:53 PM EST
If you are using your XCR for patrol work, keep in mind that 40% of all LE shootings occur with some sort of intermediate barrier which is most often a vehicle, and I'll bet shootings with a patrol rifle are a higher percentage than that. HD not so much. So for patrol work, I would suggest a load that has some good track record of intermediate barrier performance. Good luck.
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Posted: 6/14/2010 4:34:42 AM EST
Anyone have/seen any data or tests on the Federal 62 gr Fusion.
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