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UTex86
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:00:53 AM
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.
maddawg99
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:03:16 AM
I would like to know this also. Just curious

Maddawg
markm
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:05:39 AM
The round is most definitely NOT lead free.

The round is also ANYTHING BUT AP.

It's design was to enhance penetration at extended ranges against enemies wearing armor.
rob78
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:06:19 AM
Originally Posted By UTex86:
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.


Red is correct.

You will never find M995 available for purchase. Our military rarely even uses it due to costs. I don't know about the legality of it (I do know you can find 30-06 AP on occasion).



"A goverment that's big enough to do everything for us, is powerful enough to do anything to us."
--Fred Dalton Thompson

"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."
nmguy23
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:10:56 AM
[Last Edit: 3/24/2009 10:11:38 AM by nmguy23]
Originally Posted By UTex86:
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.


In red is more correct..... The penetrator is made of tungsten and is not true AP and was developed for soft body armor and steel helmets.
In blue...... Not sure of the legality of possesing M995 AP ammo (I would say it is not legal if I had to guess... I am sure someone else will be along shortly with a more definate/correct answer), but you will not find it anywhere for sale to the public in the USA(probally nowhere else for that matter).

ETA: Beat me to it! LOL
rob78
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:20:11 AM
Originally Posted By nmguy23:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.


In red is more correct..... The penetrator is made of tungsten and is not true AP and was developed for soft body armor and steel helmets.
In blue...... Not sure of the legality of possesing M995 AP ammo (I would say it is not legal if I had to guess... I am sure someone else will be along shortly with a more definate/correct answer), but you will not find it anywhere for sale to the public in the USA(probally nowhere else for that matter).



ETA: Beat me to it! LOL


M855 penetrator is NOT made of tungsten. The M995 AP ammo uses a tungsten core. M855 uses a steel core.

"A goverment that's big enough to do everything for us, is powerful enough to do anything to us."
--Fred Dalton Thompson

"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."
UTex86
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:31:47 AM
[Last Edit: 3/24/2009 10:33:17 AM by UTex86]
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?
rob78
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:41:41 AM
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


Like I said, you can find 30-06 and 308 AP, but I've NEVER seen M995 for sale. If you find some (M995) there are two things that have happened: 1) it's fake 2) it's stolen. Neither of which I want any part of.

"A goverment that's big enough to do everything for us, is powerful enough to do anything to us."
--Fred Dalton Thompson

"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."
UTex86
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Posted: 3/24/2009 10:48:47 AM
[Last Edit: 3/24/2009 10:48:57 AM by UTex86]
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


Like I said, you can find 30-06 and 308 AP, but I've NEVER seen M995 for sale. If you find some (M995) there are two things that have happened: 1) it's fake 2) it's stolen. Neither of which I want any part of.



OK good to know. I'll avoid it if I see it then.

Thanks for the quick replies, everyone.
SewerCow
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Posted: 3/24/2009 1:01:08 PM
[Last Edit: 3/24/2009 1:03:12 PM by SewerCow]
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


I recall reading from someone on here that any caliber that has been used in a pistol can not have true AP rounds sold to civilians. Some Genius decided to make an AR 15 pistol, so, there goes AP rounds for the ar 15. There are currently no pistols that fire the 30.06 or .308. Those black tip rounds you see are legit, ammunitiontogo occasionally sold black tipped 30.06 a while back, but it is rather pricey. There was also talk on here about how M995 is not all that it is cracked up to be. Something about the small size of the round meant to be a "tank buster" just defies physics. Something that small is not really meant to destroy tanks, or basically, be an anit-material round. Like someone else said, if you see someone labeling a round as M995 don't buy it, it is stolen or it is fake. Also, don't be sucked into buying what some called "moly coated AP rounds".
mcb
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Posted: 3/24/2009 2:02:20 PM


This is an M855 bullet I pulled from a damage round I found in a case of XM855PD I picked up in early 2007 from Natchez. The red arrow point to the line between the steel core in the front and the lead core in the back of the projectile. The steel core on the right is relatively hard as the one in the picture was found after I fired several rounds into some concrete blocks. There are very few marks on it. That said the cutaway picture was achieve using a standard bastard file to expose the core so the steel core can not be supper hard or the file would not have cut it.

Hope that helps a little
mcb
Santini
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Posted: 3/24/2009 3:18:36 PM
Originally Posted By SewerCow:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


I recall reading from someone on here that any caliber that has been used in a pistol can not have true AP rounds sold to civilians. Some Genius decided to make an AR 15 pistol, so, there goes AP rounds for the ar 15. There are currently no pistols that fire the 30.06 or .308. Those black tip rounds you see are legit, ammunitiontogo occasionally sold black tipped 30.06 a while back, but it is rather pricey. There was also talk on here about how M995 is not all that it is cracked up to be. Something about the small size of the round meant to be a "tank buster" just defies physics. Something that small is not really meant to destroy tanks, or basically, be an anit-material round. Like someone else said, if you see someone labeling a round as M995 don't buy it, it is stolen or it is fake. Also, don't be sucked into buying what some called "moly coated AP rounds".


I have a V51P - which is a .308 HK clone pistol. Also seen 5.7 AP ammo for sale that would work in FN's 5.7 pistol.
Molon
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Posted: 3/24/2009 3:56:14 PM
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one


I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?


I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


Just because some ammunition has a black tip on it, does not make it M995. The bullets used in M995 are not available as reloading components and it is illegal for someone who does not hold a type 10 FFL to manufacture bullets like those used in M995. It is also illegal for a type 10 FFL to sell M995 to a civilian.
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SewerCow
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Posted: 3/24/2009 4:02:38 PM
Originally Posted By Santini:
Originally Posted By SewerCow:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


I recall reading from someone on here that any caliber that has been used in a pistol can not have true AP rounds sold to civilians. Some Genius decided to make an AR 15 pistol, so, there goes AP rounds for the ar 15. There are currently no pistols that fire the 30.06 or .308. Those black tip rounds you see are legit, ammunitiontogo occasionally sold black tipped 30.06 a while back, but it is rather pricey. There was also talk on here about how M995 is not all that it is cracked up to be. Something about the small size of the round meant to be a "tank buster" just defies physics. Something that small is not really meant to destroy tanks, or basically, be an anit-material round. Like someone else said, if you see someone labeling a round as M995 don't buy it, it is stolen or it is fake. Also, don't be sucked into buying what some called "moly coated AP rounds".


I have a V51P - which is a .308 HK clone pistol. Also seen 5.7 AP ammo for sale that would work in FN's 5.7 pistol.


Well, haha I stand corrected. I knew there were 5.7 AP rounds but I didn't think they could be sold to the public. I guess I need to ask what constitutes something as a "pistol"?
BushBoar
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Posted: 3/24/2009 4:10:04 PM
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By nmguy23:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.


In red is more correct..... The penetrator is made of tungsten and is not true AP and was developed for soft body armor and steel helmets.
In blue...... Not sure of the legality of possesing M995 AP ammo (I would say it is not legal if I had to guess... I am sure someone else will be along shortly with a more definate/correct answer), but you will not find it anywhere for sale to the public in the USA(probally nowhere else for that matter).



ETA: Beat me to it! LOL


M855 penetrator is NOT made of tungsten. The M995 AP ammo uses a tungsten core. M855 uses a steel core.



Correct.
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Santini
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Posted: 3/26/2009 7:22:52 PM
Originally Posted By SewerCow:
Originally Posted By Santini:
Originally Posted By SewerCow:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?


I recall reading from someone on here that any caliber that has been used in a pistol can not have true AP rounds sold to civilians. Some Genius decided to make an AR 15 pistol, so, there goes AP rounds for the ar 15. There are currently no pistols that fire the 30.06 or .308. Those black tip rounds you see are legit, ammunitiontogo occasionally sold black tipped 30.06 a while back, but it is rather pricey. There was also talk on here about how M995 is not all that it is cracked up to be. Something about the small size of the round meant to be a "tank buster" just defies physics. Something that small is not really meant to destroy tanks, or basically, be an anit-material round. Like someone else said, if you see someone labeling a round as M995 don't buy it, it is stolen or it is fake. Also, don't be sucked into buying what some called "moly coated AP rounds".


I have a V51P - which is a .308 HK clone pistol. Also seen 5.7 AP ammo for sale that would work in FN's 5.7 pistol.


Well, haha I stand corrected. I knew there were 5.7 AP rounds but I didn't think they could be sold to the public. I guess I need to ask what constitutes something as a "pistol"?


Disclosure - I have actually never shot my .308 pistol as a pistol. As soon as my tax stamp comes in, it will SBR and go directly to the range with some non-AP ammo.
CenterTop
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Posted: 3/26/2009 11:44:21 PM
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 11:53:07 PM by CenterTop]
Originally Posted By mcb:
http://mcb-homis.com/blog/m855.jpg

This is an M855 bullet I pulled from a damage round I found in a case of XM855PD I picked up in early 2007 from Natchez. The red arrow point to the line between the steel core in the front and the lead core in the back of the projectile. The steel core on the right is relatively hard as the one in the picture was found after I fired several rounds into some concrete blocks. There are very few marks on it. That said the cutaway picture was achieve using a standard bastard file to expose the core so the steel core can not be supper hard or the file would not have cut it.

Hope that helps a little
mcb


Looks like someones using your picture here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125863192


Maybe a percentage of sales should be yours?
texas-skeeter
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Posted: 3/26/2009 11:48:24 PM
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.


Red is correct.

You will never find M995 available for purchase. Our military rarely even uses it due to costs. I don't know about the legality of it (I do know you can find 30-06 AP on occasion).





are you sure on the word never? right now as i type this there is 100 rds of black tip 5.56 ammo for sale on GB. so if M995 ammo is the only black tip ammo, well there you go.
fistpoint
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Posted: 3/27/2009 12:03:48 AM
I didn't read through all this, just searched "black" in the thread and no one mentioned it yet I think.

I read here on more than once occasion that at least one type of black tip 5.56 was sold here in the states that was not m995, but rather m855 with black instead of green. I do not remember the country of origin, but it "might" have been Portugal which would be FNM marked.
rob78
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Posted: 3/27/2009 10:28:33 AM
Originally Posted By texas-skeeter:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.


Red is correct.

You will never find M995 available for purchase. Our military rarely even uses it due to costs. I don't know about the legality of it (I do know you can find 30-06 AP on occasion).





are you sure on the word never? right now as i type this there is 100 rds of black tip 5.56 ammo for sale on GB. so if M995 ammo is the only black tip ammo, well there you go.


Yep, I'm sure. You and I will never see the real M995 for sale .

Just because it's for sale on Gunbroker does not make it real, represented correctly, or legitimate.

I've got a bottle of black matte touchup paint. I'll sell you 100rds of superduper black-tipped M855 for $300.

"A goverment that's big enough to do everything for us, is powerful enough to do anything to us."
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"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."
KeeblerElf
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Posted: 3/27/2009 10:47:32 AM
on the green tip, it's meant to penatrate soft more easily
black tip armor and walls
i've seen black tip sold to civilians at some of the surplus warehouses, from what i understand from the site(this was 2 years back), you dont see it much because it is illegal for the manufacturer to sell it direct, the only reason this site had some was because of a return, it was purchased and sold to a police department then half of it was returned thereby allowing it to be sold to public

that was their explanation not mine

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Posted: 3/27/2009 11:22:09 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

Scroll to bottom for info.

Seems like quite a few people in here have things mixed up.
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Posted: 3/27/2009 11:30:45 AM
Wikipedia for the win. The M855 bullet is built to retain both velocity and a nose-forward attitude over a longer distance than the M193 bullet, and it does this by arranging the mass of the bullet to get that effect. It is marked differently because the heavier, longer bullet requires a faster spin than the 1:12 (or earlier 1:14) spin of the original M16 and the M16A1. That is ALL the marking means: a bullet that is effective over a longer distance.

Some confusion comes from the original specification: the round must penetrate a "standard NATO steel helmet" at 600 meters. If an M193 bullet could get that far with a nose-forward attitude, it would do that. It's just that it loses stabilization and begins to yaw before that distance so, while it'll punch through the relatively thin, fairly mild steel of a helmet at shorter distances, it can't quite do it that far out.
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rob78
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Posted: 3/27/2009 11:34:42 AM
Originally Posted By KeeblerElf:
on the green tip, it's meant to penatrate soft more easily
black tip armor and walls
i've seen black tip sold to civilians at some of the surplus warehouses, from what i understand from the site(this was 2 years back), you dont see it much because it is illegal for the manufacturer to sell it direct, the only reason this site had some was because of a return, it was purchased and sold to a police department then half of it was returned thereby allowing it to be sold to public

that was their explanation not mine

keeblerelf


M855 was designed to penetrate a steel helmet at so many yards (500 or 600 IIRC).

M995 is true AP

The ammo oracle is an excellent reference and will tell you more about the ammo specs and design than you care to know.

Have you got a link to the thread where "this site" had access to M995? Not being contrarian, but I would like to read it.

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Posted: 3/27/2009 12:05:40 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2009 10:25:26 AM by leid]
Bosnian/Serbian Igman factory black tip SS109 (headstamp looks like a widened "U" with dots going up the middle of it above ".223") and linked LC XM777 factory black tip cartridges (headstamp "LC 78" & "LC 79") are both factory "black tip" cartridges. The XM777 was an attempt at enhancing M193 type ammunition & the 55gr. XM777 bullet is magnetic. Unfortunately, both have been misrepresented and sold as "M995 AP". And the amount of fake 7.62x51mm AP for sale is rapidly growing. Most looks to be based on the DAG cupro-nickel AB 22 type Weichkern steel jacket/lead core or other steel jacket/mild steel core cartridges such as M59. "A magnet will stick to it as proof of the tungsten core" is the usual sales pitch. Yes, a magnet will stick to it, but that does not mean it has a hardened penetrator AP core. A magnet will NOT stick to the tungsten penetrator in U.S. M948 SLAP because tungsten is non-ferrous/non-magnetic. A magnet will stick to genuine M993/M995 AP because the tungsten penetrator is enclosed in a Tombac clad steel jacket. Make sure and get the headstamp info on any "AP" cartridges for sale and check them out before purchasing. The cartridge headstamp alone will expose virtually all marketed "M995 AP" for what it is, SCAMMO. Don't allow these Internet thieves to steal your hard earned ammo dollars.


Bosnian/Serbian Igman SS109 factory "black tip" cartridge headstamp. Some noob recently paid $100 for a single round of this "M995 AP" SCAMMO.


LC 78 XM777 factory "black tip" is 3rd from left. It is a hard-to-find factory black tip, it does attract a magnet, but it is not M995 AP.


7.62x51mm/.30 Cal specialty rounds. "7.62x51mm AP" SCAMMO is now selling for big bucks and the clueless buyers even leave A+ feedback. The T104E1 (pre M59) and M59 "BALL" cartridges on the far left do have mild steel cores, but they are not "AP". The M959 SLAP Tracer is simply an M856 tracer bullet in a sabot and has no "AP" capability whatsoever. If you look closely, you can see the cannelure on the bullet intended for crimping on the M856 tracer cartridge. The U.S. M948 SLAP cartridge fires a 62gr./sub .20 caliber tungsten penetrator at 4000FPS. Although M948 SLAP performed well when used in the 7.62 mini gun, it occasionally had problems when fired from flash suppressor fitted weapons such as the then-standard U.S. M60 GPMG. An M948 SLAP penetrator reportedly came out the side of an M60 barrel causing a ban on further use by the USMC.



7.62x51mm AB 22 DAG BALL cartridges: These cartridges are being sold as "tungsten AP cartridges": Nothing could be further from the truth. AB 22 cartridges contain thin steel jacket/lead core bullets that were designed to fragment very easily on contact with flesh & bone. Headstamp is "DAG 93" with NATO cross & lot number. Some DAG 93 sold as "tungsten AP" has green, black, green/black, etc. colored tips.

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Posted: 3/28/2009 2:51:17 AM
Thx Leid, that was the ammo I was talking about...Igman not Port then.
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