Im relatively new to the "retro" world and I recently was given some parts by my local 'smith.  These parts came out of his used but good bin.  I got a 16" pencil profile carbine barrel assembly with a unmarked fsb, 7 hole carbine handguards, A2 grip, and some assorted pins and springs.  I thought about doing a BHD clone but I've decided to do something a little different.  I got a stripped A2 upper, Olympic 3 position CAR stock off the EE, BCG, and a lpk.  I got on ebay and found a good Aimpoint MkIII and a Ultralux mount.

I want to clone a Carbine that may have been in use by SOF-D/DEVGRU in the late 80s during Operation Just Cause and Desert Shield/Storm.  Im still looking for a period appropriate light like a Surefire 6D.  Can anyone help guide me in the right direction with correct style parts and accessories?  Am I lucky enough to have someone who was issued a carbine like this help me along with my build?  Any input or guidance is appreciated.  Will post pics as my build progresses.

ETA: PICS




DESERT STORM:

This thread might be a good starting point:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/449652_going_for_a_1993_Somalia_car15_build_and_need_your_help.html

A lot of good background there that might help guide you towards more specific question, if it doesn't flat out give you the answers you need.

~Augee

Thanks for the link Augee.  I've read through that thread and the 727 clone thread twice.  Im new to the retro world so I have some questions for the experts.  I want this carbine to scream 80s.  The BHD thread is more 90s with more modern optics and accessories.  Is there any difference in the two?  I noticed there are several carbines built on A1 receivers, I have a A2.  Also, I have an old Aimpoint MkIII that was discontinued in '89.  Right now these parts are going on a spikes spider lower which I plan to replace later on with a more appropriate lower.  What light would be appropriate for a period carbine, if any at all?  Im looking for expert guidance but since this is an A2 I came here instead of retro.

I do not remember exactly where, but I read that in the 80's and even into the 90's people would use double pipe clamps to put small Dorcy/Maglite flashlights on their barrels. You have got to post pics when you are done!

The period you're asking about is a period of a lot of changes in a relatively short period - you're really talking about the time period when:

a) the M16A2 Carbine was beginning to "appear"

b) when CT-type units were beginning to switch from being heavily invested in MP5s of various types to M16 carbine types

The A2 receiver wouldn't really be appropriate until about 1988 and on, as that was when the RO727 was released - originally it used a .625 barrel, but those seem to have gone away extremely quickly in favor of the .750 barrel.  The A1 and A2/FS RO723s would have been a little bit earlier, but not too much, and unlike the RO723, I don't know if I can recall any documented photographs of the .625 barreled RO727 in use by the military.  

Depending on when in the '80s you're thinking, you might be looking at the R653, the M16A1 Carbine.  

Between 1983 and 1993, you're talking about a shift between divers' flashlights and D-cell MagLites with hose clamps and duct tape to Laser Devices (Surefire) 6Ps and barrel mounts.

RDS of various types have been in use since at least 1970 with the Singlepoints on the Son Tay Raider GAU-5s (forget how many slashes and "A"s for the correct designation - but it's the forward-assistless XM177E2 equivalent with the 11.5" barrel).  

This might be a good article to read if you haven't already:

http://soldiersystems.net/2013/11/19/bcm-gunfighter-history-vol-1-the-scud-hunter-carbine/

Honestly, for what you're talking about - for the first half of the 80s, you're best "A2 Carbine" would be an MP5A2.  

For the second half, I'd swap out the A2 upper for an A2/FS ("C7") upper, and then use the parts you've got.  

~Augee

Thanks for the link again Augee.  That article is what I have been looking for.  I've found that there is not much info out there about when and where the A2 carbine came into common use.  I see Vickers carbine appears to be built on a C7 style upper but the layout is what Im going for.  Ill have to keep my eyes open in the future for an upper like his.  

After reading your post and the article I see why many choose to do a BHD clone.  There is way more info and first hand knowledge with those than any other early carbine plus 90s retro tactical parts are easily found at reasonable prices.  This build is going to be a bit more difficult than I thought but I'm going to try anyway.  Sorry for my noob questions, just want to do this right.  Pic of Vickers carbine:

The "C7" upper is more correctly (or at least - it's what Colt calls it...) and "A2 upper with field sights," or as I've abbreviated it - "A2/FS."  The idea being that the case deflector is an M16A2-series development - it's an M16A2 upper that has the "field" or what are commonly called "A1" sights rather than the "A2" or "target" sights.  

The early '90s is when the idea of a "tactical" M16 carbine comes into being - as I said, previously, the MP5 family had been the weapon of choice of DA and CT units.  

Once these organizations started moving towards M16 carbines it kickstarted the "tactical" market for aftermarket parts - the notable apocryphal story is that Reed Knight was watching news footage of soldiers with MagLites duct taped and hose clamped to their weapons, inspiring him to design the RIS - Rail Interface System.

As I mentioned, the first, as far as I can tell, combat use, and first "wide scale" (if you could call it that) use of RDS was the Son Tay Raid, but it took a while for RDS to really be "widely accepted."  

Another thing that was relatively common on carbines of the late-80s and early-90s would've been the OPS Inc. 3rd Model suppressor.  

~Augee

Update: Completed the base gun today.  Opinions welcome.

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With Aimpoint Mk III on an Ultralux mount

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Very nice
Where did you find the older Aimpoints at?

eBay.  $20 for a good working Aimpoint.  Couldn't turn it down.

How does it compare with a modern Aimpoint? Because that just made something in my brain tingle. That carbine build is looking seriously cool, now you just need a Surefire 660 on there. :)

I have a used Surefire 6P.  Need to decide how to mount it.

My MkIII is not as nice as say a Comp but for what it is and what they can be had for on an auction site I'd say they are comparable.  The dot is brightness adjustable and has full range adjustment for sight in.  Just know if you decide to get one that Aimpoint doesn't have any replacement parts for any of these sights, this MkIII was discontinued in '89.  It uses CR123 batteries but I have to peel the labels off of them because they wont fit the tube out of the box.  Not a big deal to me.  Now that I have one Id recommend it as a good and reliable "budget optic".  It's still a legit Aimpoint but its not quite as good as the newer ones.

The closest barrel-clamp-rail to the original Surefire unit I'm aware of that isn't Chinese is made by MFI . You can use that, or if you want to be more modern, The SLiC Thing by GG&G is nice too. GG&G also make a ring that looks alot like the original Surefire unit.

And its cool to hear about that Aimpoint. I'm not sure I'd use it for duty, to me it's more a safe queen that you zero on a clone rifle for the spirit of functionality and put away, purely because there are no parts or warrantee. And it uses CR123's? Because I see one on Gunbroker and it shows 4 batteries it includes, and they don't look like CR123s.

Thanks for the suggestions.  Yes, this MkIII does use CR123A batteries.  It was not designed for them and I dont know what batteries it actually uses but I found out that they are not made anymore.  Most folks use the 123s and peel the labels because the tube diameter is just a bit too small to use them as is.  With the label off its a tight fit but it works.  Also, this sight only uses 1 battery.  Ill try and get some better pics for you.  Like you said I don't rate this optic for duty but its great on a clone for the range or maybe a 3 gun old school loadout.

ETA: My ebay fu is the shit.  Just scored a nib Surefire M14/M10 mount and ring for $37.  Will post pics when it comes in.

UPDATE:

I took some iderp pics of the final product this morning for a thread going in GD.  Ill post them here too:

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mech4matsnova, I like your Carbine.  I hope it shoots as good as it looks.  Also I noticed that I the last pic's you put a regular Flash Hider on it, Great choice !


Just a side note, I put an Armalite NM Windage Drum on my A2 Middy, it gives me more adjustment then I expected.  And you really can't tell the difference without looking real close at it.

Thanks Chief.  Best part is it goes well with my not-really-retro-but-looks-kinda-retro 835 Riot Gun from our other thread.  The wood furniture and retro looks of the 835 Riot go well with this carbine, especially with the pics of SOF-D carrying 870s with their 727s in Somalia.  Thanks for the tip on the NM sight, Ill get one coming.

mech4matsnova, I put the NM Windage Drum on it for 2 reason's:

1 - I had it on hand (from a long time ago)

2 - I need all the extra help I can get (some may call it cheating, but I don't care)

It does help, especially with the shorter sight radius.