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Posted: 6/25/2019 5:14:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Buck_Naked]
[#1]
@Flyit14
No affiliation, but how about this for the rear sight assembly? https://www.gunbroker.com/item/819354424 |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2019 7:42:57 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Buck_Naked:
@Flyit14 No affiliation, but how about this for the rear sight assembly? https://www.gunbroker.com/item/819354424 Now only if I could get lucky with the aimpoint. Haha |
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Posted: 6/25/2019 10:17:52 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
http://i.imgur.com/0OItyTI.jpg Been a while since I checked on this thread. This is the current state of my attempt at cloning Gary Gordon's suppressed 723. I painted it like the movie one for fun. But this is a C7 upper. Unlike the movie guns A2. Mine is a 12.5" barrel to mount the aem5 as close to the FSB as possible. The real one was probably a 14.5" barrel with an ops Inc 3rd model. But this is as close as I'm going to get. Now I need to track down an A1 rear sight assembly and and aimpoint 5000 and mount. No luck finding one recently. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2019 10:31:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Flyit14]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: You're going to hate what I'm working on. Not Gordon's but close, was hanging in the balance depending on which Aimpoint I ended up finding, and I landed a really nice 3000. Debating if I should move it over or not. It has some really honest wear though so I don't want to paint it. I'd even take a silver one so I wouldn't care about painting it camo |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2019 3:41:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Flyit14]
[#5]
Here it is with the can attached. Still debating on if I want to paint the can. Not sure how hope depot camo paint will handle the heat.
 And here is where my aimpoint lives. I have to redo the float tube to make the holes line up but thats the general idea. 
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Posted: 6/25/2019 5:00:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
Haha where'd you find it? I have a well used but functional 5000 on another build. Debating if I should move it over or not. It has some really honest wear though so I don't want to paint it. I'd even take a silver one so I wouldn't care about painting it camo Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: You're going to hate what I'm working on. Not Gordon's but close, was hanging in the balance depending on which Aimpoint I ended up finding, and I landed a really nice 3000. Debating if I should move it over or not. It has some really honest wear though so I don't want to paint it. I'd even take a silver one so I wouldn't care about painting it camo Honestly, stick with what you got. I'm still waiting for more clarification as to the actual status and configuration of MSG Gordon's 723 in terms of paint and if it was a 5000. It probably was because per Augee most of SFOD had 5K by then, with a small sprinkling of 3K around. But the paint seems to have always been a question, whether he painted the whole gun, just the handguards and stock, or if it was just black. Same with Shughart's M14/M21, did it have a scope vs an Aimpoint 3K or 5K. I keep hearing there will someday be something that will shine some light on the issue but I've yet to hear it actually coming out. And I think I have @Hunterex hooked on now to build MSG Gordon's rifle as well with another of those custom barrels and collars. I'm not sure Ron is going to do more honestly, and of the 10 or so he was making I know 3 are already taken. But with a .30 cal AEM5, AE22, or an AE30 or similar can one should have the right length to exactly match the old OPS Inc cans. An AEM5 will be really close but about 2" or so shorter. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2019 5:13:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Flyit14]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: Well, I will say that you might hate it that some OG style barrels are coming from Ron Allen, with old style collars and everything, to replicate the old 723 and 727s with the original OPS Inc can (not actually the 3rd Model, older). It'll be a 12.5", has a 3 piece collar where the 2 old style parts slip over the tapered collar so it looks like the old clamp on 2 and 3 piece ones. Honestly, stick with what you got. I'm still waiting for more clarification as to the actual status and configuration of MSG Gordon's 723 in terms of paint and if it was a 5000. It probably was because per Augee most of SFOD had 5K by then, with a small sprinkling of 3K around. But the paint seems to have always been a question, whether he painted the whole gun, just the handguards and stock, or if it was just black. Same with Shughart's M14/M21, did it have a scope vs an Aimpoint 3K or 5K. I keep hearing there will someday be something that will shine some light on the issue but I've yet to hear it actually coming out. And I think I have @Hunterex hooked on now to build MSG Gordon's rifle as well with another of those custom barrels and collars. I'm not sure Ron is going to do more honestly, and of the 10 or so he was making I know 3 are already taken. But with a .30 cal AEM5, AE22, or an AE30 or similar can one should have the right length to exactly match the old OPS Inc cans. An AEM5 will be really close but about 2" or so shorter. That said I've shot this configuration and its really over gassed. Lots of gas to the face. And unsuppressed of course its way loud (I have the ops inc brake under there). I'd be interested to see what Ron is making though. EDIT: are there any pictures of them? I haven't seen anything on Ron's facebook or anywhere else on the web. |
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Posted: 6/25/2019 6:38:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Check out Amherst Depot for the A1 rear sight parts. I recently got a NOS parts kit in a sealed bag dated 1974.
Amherst Depot |
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Posted: 6/25/2019 7:23:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
That's interesting, I didn't know Ron was making those barrels. I probably wouldn't go for one just because I have this build and because of $$$ or lack there of. That said I've shot this configuration and its really over gassed. Lots of gas to the face. And unsuppressed of course its way loud (I have the ops inc brake under there). I'd be interested to see what Ron is making though. EDIT: are there any pictures of them? I haven't seen anything on Ron's facebook or anywhere else on the web. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: Well, I will say that you might hate it that some OG style barrels are coming from Ron Allen, with old style collars and everything, to replicate the old 723 and 727s with the original OPS Inc can (not actually the 3rd Model, older). It'll be a 12.5", has a 3 piece collar where the 2 old style parts slip over the tapered collar so it looks like the old clamp on 2 and 3 piece ones. Honestly, stick with what you got. I'm still waiting for more clarification as to the actual status and configuration of MSG Gordon's 723 in terms of paint and if it was a 5000. It probably was because per Augee most of SFOD had 5K by then, with a small sprinkling of 3K around. But the paint seems to have always been a question, whether he painted the whole gun, just the handguards and stock, or if it was just black. Same with Shughart's M14/M21, did it have a scope vs an Aimpoint 3K or 5K. I keep hearing there will someday be something that will shine some light on the issue but I've yet to hear it actually coming out. And I think I have @Hunterex hooked on now to build MSG Gordon's rifle as well with another of those custom barrels and collars. I'm not sure Ron is going to do more honestly, and of the 10 or so he was making I know 3 are already taken. But with a .30 cal AEM5, AE22, or an AE30 or similar can one should have the right length to exactly match the old OPS Inc cans. An AEM5 will be really close but about 2" or so shorter. That said I've shot this configuration and its really over gassed. Lots of gas to the face. And unsuppressed of course its way loud (I have the ops inc brake under there). I'd be interested to see what Ron is making though. EDIT: are there any pictures of them? I haven't seen anything on Ron's facebook or anywhere else on the web. 
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USA
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Posted: 6/26/2019 2:13:30 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86:
There's an Allen Engineering / Ops Inc owners group he posts in. I'm sure y'all will see them in here soon Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Originally Posted By Flyit14:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: Well, I will say that you might hate it that some OG style barrels are coming from Ron Allen, with old style collars and everything, to replicate the old 723 and 727s with the original OPS Inc can (not actually the 3rd Model, older). It'll be a 12.5", has a 3 piece collar where the 2 old style parts slip over the tapered collar so it looks like the old clamp on 2 and 3 piece ones. Honestly, stick with what you got. I'm still waiting for more clarification as to the actual status and configuration of MSG Gordon's 723 in terms of paint and if it was a 5000. It probably was because per Augee most of SFOD had 5K by then, with a small sprinkling of 3K around. But the paint seems to have always been a question, whether he painted the whole gun, just the handguards and stock, or if it was just black. Same with Shughart's M14/M21, did it have a scope vs an Aimpoint 3K or 5K. I keep hearing there will someday be something that will shine some light on the issue but I've yet to hear it actually coming out. And I think I have @Hunterex hooked on now to build MSG Gordon's rifle as well with another of those custom barrels and collars. I'm not sure Ron is going to do more honestly, and of the 10 or so he was making I know 3 are already taken. But with a .30 cal AEM5, AE22, or an AE30 or similar can one should have the right length to exactly match the old OPS Inc cans. An AEM5 will be really close but about 2" or so shorter. That said I've shot this configuration and its really over gassed. Lots of gas to the face. And unsuppressed of course its way loud (I have the ops inc brake under there). I'd be interested to see what Ron is making though. EDIT: are there any pictures of them? I haven't seen anything on Ron's facebook or anywhere else on the web. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 6:50:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USGI: He won't do a limited run of "retro" "3rd model" clones for a 14.5"? I would pony up for one... 12.5" barrel? Gay. Can rarely would come off so who gives a shit. No other way to replicate it short 100% doing it yourself on a Form 1. |
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Posted: 6/27/2019 10:20:25 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
http://i.imgur.com/0OItyTI.jpg Been a while since I checked on this thread. This is the current state of my attempt at cloning Gary Gordon's suppressed 723. I painted it like the movie one for fun. But this is a C7 upper. Unlike the movie guns A2. Mine is a 12.5" barrel to mount the aem5 as close to the FSB as possible. The real one was probably a 14.5" barrel with an ops Inc 3rd model. But this is as close as I'm going to get. Now I need to track down an A1 rear sight assembly and and aimpoint 5000 and mount. No luck finding one recently. JSE Surplus has A1 Rear Sights. I doubt they're real Colt but they're close enough. https://www.jsesurplus.com/a1rearsightassy.aspx |
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Posted: 7/8/2019 12:44:29 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 7/15/2019 4:31:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lancecriminal86]
[#14]
WIP 75th Rangers RRD 727
Still VERY much WIP, placeholder FSB used just to mock it up, barrel needs coating and maybe some light reprofiling, obviously needs an A1 lower stamped, and the optic rail will be temporary until it is modified or the right one is sourced. Oh, and long term I plan to order an Allen Engineering can of the same dimensions as the Ops Inc original, with the right knurling. AEM5 will stand in for now but the OG Ops can is about 10.5" long vs the almost 9" of the AEM5. 
Originally posted on TOS as an RRD gun, RRD being 75th's Ranger Reconnaissance Detachment. 802xxxx SN range so an A2 marked A1 lower as seen on other Ranger 727s. Looks like a metal CAR stock but perhaps uncoated or the vinyl-acetate all wore off, still trying to decide there.  Posted elsewhere as 2/75 or 3/75 during Gothic Serpent/TF Ranger, a very close setup with different placement of the Aimpoint but a similar top rail.  Gents, can I get a reminder which sling that is that looped through the A-Frame? I feel like I've seen some kind of A2 sling adapter around just like this before that was "issued" instead of the old VN style slings we used on our USMC A2s. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/16/2019 1:39:10 AM EDT
[#15]
That was cropped from a Ranger Vet's pic, from waiting for Haiti 
Not a 727, but an M4A1 with the optics from the 727 era. As for the sling, thats easy. The M203 adapter. During the A2 era, there was an issued adapter for the M203 to was basically an extender with A shaped ring that latched onto the FSB. In later years, there was another sling adapter, that used a barrel clamp and steel cable but I think that is a post 911 thing. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/20/2019 9:04:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Any actual evidence of Gordon having a light on his rifle? I know the movie prop has one but I've based my clone on the print. I'm all done and just need to figure out if this is the last piece I need.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 7/26/2019 6:36:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Need some confirmation from the hive: did the Rangers use Butler Creek flip caps on their SF 660s to prevent a "discharge" of light? I have a bunch of Colt parts raring to go.
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Posted: 8/3/2019 8:10:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Coming along. Will remove the side swivel when I get the barrel buttoned up. Got the rings, just need the 5000.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 8/4/2019 8:56:12 PM EDT
[#19]
C7 lowers are on sale at Brownells for $79. Free shipping today.
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Posted: 8/14/2019 10:08:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Not 100% Clone but the upper is coming together, just a quick mock-up before it goes out for pin & weld. Decided to run the CompM2 I’ve had forever instead of tracking down a 5000. Running it in a Leupold QRW ring which gets it pretty close to the #2 ARMs Mount. Undecided if I want to run it with the side sling swivel. Decided to try and update the Surefire 660 so I dropped a Bright Flashlights/Malkoff M61 lamp in it. Throws 400~ Lumens and about 1.5 hours run time. I’m pretty impressed for $45.00...huge improvement over the P60 bulb that was in it. 
I’ll post finished pics in a week or two... |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 8/17/2019 9:24:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: retroguy]
[#21]
Got my RO727 80% lower in hand yesterday. I will state for the record, while the laser engraving is good and what I wanted, that does NOT give the same effect as engraving done by a CNC. machine. Just my opinion.
I will be sending out for reprofiling soon. 
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USA
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Posted: 8/27/2019 4:57:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Man looks like I got mine together just in time for the rush.
Not technically an A2 because of the C7 upper. But it definitely fits in here. 
Kind of wishing I had the cool little collar for the suppressor now. I assume Ron isn't making any more? |
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Posted: 8/27/2019 11:10:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LV1976]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
Man looks like I got mine together just in time for the rush. Not technically an A2 because of the C7 upper. But it definitely fits in here. https://i.imgur.com/ahVTnOYh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EOuVQA8h.jpg https://i.imgur.com/P4v7imdh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nezLbYYh.jpg Kind of wishing I had the cool little collar for the suppressor now. I assume Ron isn't making any more?  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/28/2019 7:53:12 AM EDT
[#24]
How come nobody's done one using an ACOG?
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PA, USA
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Posted: 8/28/2019 9:03:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RTUtah:
How come nobody's done one using an ACOG? |
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Posted: 8/28/2019 9:13:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RTUtah:
How come nobody's done one using an ACOG?  A2's and Optics by SoloDallas, on Flickr
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:27:45 AM EDT
[#27]
 Gorgeous! |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:53:03 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By myitinaw:
Gorgeous! |
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Posted: 9/3/2019 11:45:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RTUtah:
How come nobody's done one using an ACOG? |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 10:49:30 AM EDT
[#30]
Does 90 dollars seem like a good price for surefire 660s?, These guys have quite of few of them for sale
https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/LOT-22029-SUREFIRE-660-WEAPONS-LIGHT-W-P60-BULB-WEAVER/item-information/50873111 |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2019 8:39:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By polishkebasa:
Does 90 dollars seem like a good price for surefire 660s?, These guys have quite of few of them for sale https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/LOT-22029-SUREFIRE-660-WEAPONS-LIGHT-W-P60-BULB-WEAVER/item-information/50873111 
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Posted: 9/6/2019 9:38:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: polishkebasa]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DStepec:
It's a good price for what they go for on eBay. I paid $165 for the exact same thing in your link 6 months back on eBay because I just wanted to finish my 727 build. That Sierra Auction place is right down the street from me, I wonder if I could drop by and look at items up for sale. In any case, here's my 727: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48691087157_2bd7b41ee3.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DStepec:
Originally Posted By polishkebasa:
Does 90 dollars seem like a good price for surefire 660s?, These guys have quite of few of them for sale https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/LOT-22029-SUREFIRE-660-WEAPONS-LIGHT-W-P60-BULB-WEAVER/item-information/50873111 https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48691087157_2bd7b41ee3.jpg |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2019 2:11:36 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By polishkebasa:
Does 90 dollars seem like a good price for surefire 660s?, These guys have quite of few of them for sale https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/LOT-22029-SUREFIRE-660-WEAPONS-LIGHT-W-P60-BULB-WEAVER/item-information/50873111 |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2019 9:56:17 AM EDT
[#34]
I should edit my previous post to say I TRIED to order one. Sent a purchase request to the seller 9/6 and got an email this morning after receiving no correspondence from them, saying my offer had expired. Now checking the website there aren’t any available. Anyone else have a similar issue or successfully purchase?
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Posted: 9/10/2019 10:24:02 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Usmcmatt90:
I should edit my previous post to say I TRIED to order one. Sent a purchase request to the seller 9/6 and got an email this morning after receiving no correspondence from them, saying my offer had expired. Now checking the website there aren’t any available. Anyone else have a similar issue or successfully purchase? 
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CO, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2019 2:39:07 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By polishkebasa: I did not get to order a 660 from them but I ordered a 870 police mag from them Sunday and have had no response, the listing for the gun I offered on is also gone |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2019 6:18:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Okay I contacted the listing company for the Surefire 660’s. Long story short they weren’t ready to list them and pulled the listings prematurely. According to Andy in the firearms division of the auction house they have “hundreds” and will be listing soon. Maybe a .mil surplus lot? I still have questions about being function tested and guarantees and all that.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2019 7:08:46 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Usmcmatt90:
Okay I contacted the listing company for the Surefire 660’s. Long story short they weren’t ready to list them and pulled the listings prematurely. According to Andy in the firearms division of the auction house they have “hundreds” and will be listing soon. Maybe a .mil surplus lot? I still have questions about being function tested and guarantees and all that. 
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Posted: 9/14/2019 9:42:19 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SMart: I for one think $90 is a decent deal, specially for an item you don’t see that often anymore. It took me a weeks of sourcing to put together a mock 660, with a true Surefire M14, older XM07 and a Surefire 6P (all new in box/wrapper), costing me around $150. https://i.imgur.com/rJcbFej.jpg |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/15/2019 11:22:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By togadelic: what barrel is on that? Basically a 6520 upper with a 1x9 twist. |
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Posted: 9/15/2019 8:57:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BurtSaun1049]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flyit14:
/SNIP Kind of wishing I had the cool little collar for the suppressor now. I assume Ron isn't making any more? |
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USA
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Posted: 9/16/2019 12:48:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Someone asked for ACOG. This one is all Colt, and based on a rifle I saw while deployed to Bosnia in 1995-96. |
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Posted: 10/1/2019 2:10:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Kinda IDF but that can be changed very quickly. Also for sale.
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CA, USA
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Posted: 10/2/2019 8:54:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Here’s a link to the Surefire flashlights in case anyone is interested!
https://m.proxibid.com/category/resources/mobile/seller.html?companyId=1736#company|1736|allSellers|pricehightolow||51748230|6|51748233||51748230 |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 11:38:30 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Usmcmatt90:
Here’s a link to the Surefire flashlights in case anyone is interested! https://m.proxibid.com/category/resources/mobile/seller.html?companyId=1736#company|1736|allSellers|pricehightolow||51748230|6|51748233||51748230 I wish they had sold to me the 870 p and 660 I bid on back In September as I wanted to use them in the retrowave match. I may still put a 660 on my 733 pistol and shoot it in a night match in December for the hell of itp  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 12:45:21 PM EDT
[#46]
26 years ago today
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/4/2019 12:31:11 PM EDT
[#47]
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CO, USA
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Posted: 10/4/2019 5:46:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PerfectTurn]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By polishkebasa: Nice to see them back, gonna grab one, the large modern tail cap ,wasn't introduced till the 2000's correct? I wish they had sold to me the 870 p and 660 I bid on back In September as I wanted to use them in the retrowave match. I may still put a 660 on my 733 pistol and shoot it in a night match in December for the hell of itp https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/454522/IMG_20190926_222417725_2_jpg-1111032.JPG Walked out with the 3 cleanest lights and a really nice 870P with the surefire forend and some beefy sights for $400 cash total out the door. Definitely a legit outfit, they were packing up a couple lights they jacked from my ‘clean pile’. Not sure if one of you bought an old style tailcap and someone with a new style tailcap, but they pulled them from my clean pile so you are good to go there. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/4/2019 8:56:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DStepec: I went to their Phoenix location today to check out the lights in person and an 870P. I function tested all of the 660s and they work just fine. Pay close attention to the lens, pressure pad cap connection and general wear. One lens (I forgot the lot number) is melted in the dead center, so be on the lookout for that one. Otherwise they’re all in great condition with varying degrees of wear, none new, all very good+ though! Walked out with the 3 cleanest lights and a really nice 870P with the surefire forend and some beefy sights for $400 cash total out the door. Definitely a legit outfit, they were packing up a couple lights they jacked from my ‘clean pile’. Not sure if one of you bought an old style tailcap and someone with a new style tailcap, but they pulled them from my clean pile so you are good to go there. Now, if I lived in close proximity to the place like yourself...yeah I wouldn’t be able to hold off on the 660’s and a scattergun...or 2...of each. Great deal you got. |
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Posted: 10/4/2019 9:19:44 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DStepec: I went to their Phoenix location today to check out the lights in person and an 870P. I function tested all of the 660s and they work just fine. Pay close attention to the lens, pressure pad cap connection and general wear. One lens (I forgot the lot number) is melted in the dead center, so be on the lookout for that one. Otherwise they’re all in great condition with varying degrees of wear, none new, all very good+ though! Walked out with the 3 cleanest lights and a really nice 870P with the surefire forend and some beefy sights for $400 cash total out the door. Definitely a legit outfit, they were packing up a couple lights they jacked from my ‘clean pile’. Not sure if one of you bought an old style tailcap and someone with a new style tailcap, but they pulled them from my clean pile so you are good to go there. I'm guessing there isa discount in person, shipping and all that. I'm not sure if I'll pick up a 870 or not, the match I was going to use it in was last week and I need to budget anyway as I've spent about as much as I can on my poor student budget recently. The sad thing is before they pulled the listings I had opened every 870 listing that had in a separate tabs and went through every single one. Did you notice that all the 870s with scattergun tech sights(ie non winged) had melted buttpads? |
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