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Posted: 10/25/2016 3:41:45 PM EDT
[#1]
How much heavier is it? I don't own an LWRC carbine so I can't compare. Having carried an M4 with various attachments over the years weight doesn't seem to matter as much, and I own several piston variants too. Get a good sling. How much do you intend/expect to be shouldering your rifle for extended periods of time?
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Posted: 10/25/2016 4:10:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much heavier is it? I don't own an LWRC carbine so I can't compare. Having carried an M4 with various attachments over the years weight doesn't seem to matter as much, and I own several piston variants too. Get a good sling. How much do you intend/expect to be shouldering your rifle for extended periods of time? i'd have to scale it but its gotta be 2-3 lbs more than my other 14.5 rifle with rails. the barrel is a heavy profile with flutting and with their special rail, yatta yatta slinged weight isnt really my issue but good point about how much you have to shoulder the rifle. not sure i'd wanna take a 6 hour class with it but for 1-2 hours of open range shooting i do, it doesnt bother me. that could answer the question! |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 5:14:22 PM EDT
[#3]
I would stick with the LWRC more reliable than the DI for the long haul.
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Posted: 10/25/2016 8:07:21 PM EDT
[#4]
2-3lbs seems to be a lot of weight. The piston, heavy barrel, and rails aren't helping in that area. Not trying to sell you on another system, but PWS uppers balance very well for piston systems. I have six piston uppers and the PWS is so far my favorite.
Maybe consider building another upper in DI to go along with your lower. Make that your primary configuration in SHTF until it craps out or otherwise becomes unreliable then switch back to the piston upper. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 8:12:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Biggest downside in my opinion is non standard parts on piston guns. I can find di parts everywhere.
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Posted: 10/25/2016 10:16:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Unless your DI 14.5 setup is sub 5 pounds, your LWRC isn't 2-3 pounds heavier. The LWRC setup will tend to be .5 pounds heavier than a standard M4 profile barrel, with rail, AR15. Unless you start delving into the light weight profile barrels, and light weight uppers/lowers/rails, you won't be seeing a huge weight difference. Per LWRCs website, the 14.7 weighs in at 7.1 pounds, compared to a Daniel Defense V11 SLW (So both light weight barrel and light weight rail) 6.09 pounds. The traditional M4A1 setup from Daniel Defense weighs in at 6.74 pounds.
The largest advantage, for the Stoner gas system, will be the simplicity of the gas tube. Fact is the system can run for a longer period of time, than the LWRC setup, due to the lack of need of a return spring. None of this really matters though. An EOTWAWKI scenario isn't realistic, in that you'd be getting into extended firefights, as you just wouldn't have access to enough ammo to make parts wear out. As for the argument of "finding spares", again not really relevant. You'd have only the spare parts you own, to truly rely on, in a situation like that. The most likely scenarios would be a civil unrest and that more than likely won't extend out longer than a few weeks, Katrina as an example. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 11:38:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless your DI 14.5 setup is sub 5 pounds, your LWRC isn't 2-3 pounds heavier. The LWRC setup will tend to be .5 pounds heavier than a standard M4 profile barrel, with rail, AR15. Unless you start delving into the light weight profile barrels, and light weight uppers/lowers/rails, you won't be seeing a huge weight difference. Per LWRCs website, the 14.7 weighs in at 7.1 pounds, compared to a Daniel Defense V11 SLW (So both light weight barrel and light weight rail) 6.09 pounds. The traditional M4A1 setup from Daniel Defense weighs in at 6.74 pounds. The largest advantage, for the Stoner gas system, will be the simplicity of the gas tube. Fact is the system can run for a longer period of time, than the LWRC setup, due to the lack of need of a return spring. None of this really matters though. An EOTWAWKI scenario isn't realistic, in that you'd be getting into extended firefights, as you just wouldn't have access to enough ammo to make parts wear out. As for the argument of "finding spares", again not really relevant. You'd have only the spare parts you own, to truly rely on, in a situation like that. The most likely scenarios would be a civil unrest and that more than likely won't extend out longer than a few weeks, Katrina as an example. pretty accurate on all those topics. i'm probably exagering on weight, it just feels heavier. just needed a reality check. i have a metric shit-ton of AR parts for uppers and lowers too. i'm a believer in DI's can run dirty as long as they are wet too. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 11:49:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
pretty accurate on all those topics. i'm probably exagering on weight, it just feels heavier. just needed a reality check. i have a metric shit-ton of AR parts for uppers and lowers too. i'm a believer in DI's can run dirty as long as they are wet too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unless your DI 14.5 setup is sub 5 pounds, your LWRC isn't 2-3 pounds heavier. The LWRC setup will tend to be .5 pounds heavier than a standard M4 profile barrel, with rail, AR15. Unless you start delving into the light weight profile barrels, and light weight uppers/lowers/rails, you won't be seeing a huge weight difference. Per LWRCs website, the 14.7 weighs in at 7.1 pounds, compared to a Daniel Defense V11 SLW (So both light weight barrel and light weight rail) 6.09 pounds. The traditional M4A1 setup from Daniel Defense weighs in at 6.74 pounds. The largest advantage, for the Stoner gas system, will be the simplicity of the gas tube. Fact is the system can run for a longer period of time, than the LWRC setup, due to the lack of need of a return spring. None of this really matters though. An EOTWAWKI scenario isn't realistic, in that you'd be getting into extended firefights, as you just wouldn't have access to enough ammo to make parts wear out. As for the argument of "finding spares", again not really relevant. You'd have only the spare parts you own, to truly rely on, in a situation like that. The most likely scenarios would be a civil unrest and that more than likely won't extend out longer than a few weeks, Katrina as an example. pretty accurate on all those topics. i'm probably exagering on weight, it just feels heavier. just needed a reality check. i have a metric shit-ton of AR parts for uppers and lowers too. i'm a believer in DI's can run dirty as long as they are wet too. The DI system is just as good, if not better in some areas, than the LWRC setup you have. This comes from a LWRC IC owner as well. At the end of the day, choose the rifle you want to use and keep training on it. If you do run with a suppressor, you might choose to stick with the LWRC setup, as it already has an adjustable gas block ready for you, which can be manipulated without a tool. This is about the only time I see the piston setup actually shining, beyond the super short setups. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 10:10:36 PM EDT
[#9]
My "leightweight" AR is an Adam's Arms EVO with a pencil barrel (well, it's actually a Huldra Slank upper. It was produced by Adams Arms for Mills Fllet Farm but they no longer produce this configuration with the pencil barrel.) If you're really hung up on having both A lightweight and piston AR, I have another one of these uppers still in the box and packed in grease. I'd let it go for a song if you're interested. Send me a PM.
I'm a little meatier so I don't mind a slightly heavier rifle. Just about anything that carries under 10# loaded is light to me. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 1:09:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
i love my LWRC IC 14.7" carbine, its more accurate than my chrome lined DI uppers and basically never gets dirty but its heavy as all hell for such a short rifle. so i'm struggling with which platform do i chose to make my SHTF rifle. there is no shortage of light weight DI uppers in my inventory and they are all lighter so since i'm not a meat popsicle, weight is a bit of a issue. not sure i'd want to hump this rifle around 24/7. DI uppers have never been an issue for me with cleaning and keeping them running so i'm not sure its worth the extra weight. i have plenty of parts to keep multiple DI's running for a very long time. i know we all love our piston uppers for the obvious reason that we dont have nasty dirty chambers after 1000 rounds but i still keep mine piston uppers lubed the same as my DI so i am thinking its not worth the weight . so talk my into keeping the piston as a doomsday weapon..haha Let me put this in perspective for a second. I have 2 of the same lightweight ARs 14.5 ARs (exact same) but the only difference is the DI and carrier system versus the Piston and carrier system. The piston is just under 5lbs with an aimpoint t2 attached and a 13" handguard. The difference between weight between the DI and piston is about 6-8oz. Again they're exactly the same minus the piston and DI parts. This is without sacrificing functionality and putting on carbon fiber/polymer parts. I'm sure they could be lighter. It's definitely practical, however you need to spend good money to get quality lightweight parts. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 1:50:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let me put this in perspective for a second. I have 2 of the same lightweight ARs 14.5 ARs (exact same) but the only difference is the DI and carrier system versus the Piston and carrier system. The piston is just under 5lbs with an aimpoint t2 attached and a 13" handguard. The difference between weight between the DI and piston is about 6-8oz. Again they're exactly the same minus the piston and DI parts. This is without sacrificing functionality and putting on carbon fiber/polymer parts. I'm sure they could be lighter. It's definitely practical, however you need to spend good money to get quality lightweight parts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
i love my LWRC IC 14.7" carbine, its more accurate than my chrome lined DI uppers and basically never gets dirty but its heavy as all hell for such a short rifle. so i'm struggling with which platform do i chose to make my SHTF rifle. there is no shortage of light weight DI uppers in my inventory and they are all lighter so since i'm not a meat popsicle, weight is a bit of a issue. not sure i'd want to hump this rifle around 24/7. DI uppers have never been an issue for me with cleaning and keeping them running so i'm not sure its worth the extra weight. i have plenty of parts to keep multiple DI's running for a very long time. i know we all love our piston uppers for the obvious reason that we dont have nasty dirty chambers after 1000 rounds but i still keep mine piston uppers lubed the same as my DI so i am thinking its not worth the weight . so talk my into keeping the piston as a doomsday weapon..haha Let me put this in perspective for a second. I have 2 of the same lightweight ARs 14.5 ARs (exact same) but the only difference is the DI and carrier system versus the Piston and carrier system. The piston is just under 5lbs with an aimpoint t2 attached and a 13" handguard. The difference between weight between the DI and piston is about 6-8oz. Again they're exactly the same minus the piston and DI parts. This is without sacrificing functionality and putting on carbon fiber/polymer parts. I'm sure they could be lighter. It's definitely practical, however you need to spend good money to get quality lightweight parts. a 5 pound piston rifle? i find that hard to believe. or are you talking upper only? this LWRC M6 IC SPR 14.7 pinned is 9 pounds with a full mag of 55gr and a TA44c acog. i guess i am heavier than normal too since i am using a vltor A4 buffer tube and the H4 buffer to settle the upper down. it was ejecting at 2 o'clock and had way too much felt recoil with the carbine tube and an H buffer, LWRC is not the lightest profile barrel and/or hand guard i guess. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 3:00:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a 5 pound piston rifle? i find that hard to believe. or are you talking upper only? this LWRC M6 IC SPR 14.7 pinned is 9 pounds with a full mag of 55gr and a TA44c acog. i guess i am heavier than normal too since i am using a vltor A4 buffer tube and the H4 buffer to settle the upper down. it was ejecting at 2 o'clock and had way too much felt recoil with the carbine tube and an H buffer, LWRC is not the lightest profile barrel and/or hand guard i guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i love my LWRC IC 14.7" carbine, its more accurate than my chrome lined DI uppers and basically never gets dirty but its heavy as all hell for such a short rifle. so i'm struggling with which platform do i chose to make my SHTF rifle. there is no shortage of light weight DI uppers in my inventory and they are all lighter so since i'm not a meat popsicle, weight is a bit of a issue. not sure i'd want to hump this rifle around 24/7. DI uppers have never been an issue for me with cleaning and keeping them running so i'm not sure its worth the extra weight. i have plenty of parts to keep multiple DI's running for a very long time. i know we all love our piston uppers for the obvious reason that we dont have nasty dirty chambers after 1000 rounds but i still keep mine piston uppers lubed the same as my DI so i am thinking its not worth the weight . so talk my into keeping the piston as a doomsday weapon..haha Let me put this in perspective for a second. I have 2 of the same lightweight ARs 14.5 ARs (exact same) but the only difference is the DI and carrier system versus the Piston and carrier system. The piston is just under 5lbs with an aimpoint t2 attached and a 13" handguard. The difference between weight between the DI and piston is about 6-8oz. Again they're exactly the same minus the piston and DI parts. This is without sacrificing functionality and putting on carbon fiber/polymer parts. I'm sure they could be lighter. It's definitely practical, however you need to spend good money to get quality lightweight parts. a 5 pound piston rifle? i find that hard to believe. or are you talking upper only? this LWRC M6 IC SPR 14.7 pinned is 9 pounds with a full mag of 55gr and a TA44c acog. i guess i am heavier than normal too since i am using a vltor A4 buffer tube and the H4 buffer to settle the upper down. it was ejecting at 2 o'clock and had way too much felt recoil with the carbine tube and an H buffer, LWRC is not the lightest profile barrel and/or hand guard i guess. The LWRC stuff I have played with is all heavy. Now that lightweight is a thing it's hard to go back to normal guns. I have a older rock river midlength upper and it was a tank before I put a Midwest 2 piece free float on it and made it worse. My bcm lightweight feels like a toy in comparison. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:02:09 PM EDT
[#14]
evidently i'm fretting over nothing. i just weighed this LW with mag and ta44 and its the exact same as my favorite DI rifle, 18" GI barrel with centurion rail and aimpoint.
move along, nothing more to see here. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 2:05:08 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
evidently i'm fretting over nothing. i just weighed this LW with mag and ta44 and its the exact same as my favorite DI rifle, 18" GI barrel with centurion rail and aimpoint. move along, nothing more to see here. How do you like the TA44? I'm thinking of picking one up for my Six8 PDW, been torn between that and a TA33. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:46:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you like the TA44? I'm thinking of picking one up for my Six8 PDW, been torn between that and a TA33. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
evidently i'm fretting over nothing. i just weighed this LW with mag and ta44 and its the exact same as my favorite DI rifle, 18" GI barrel with centurion rail and aimpoint. move along, nothing more to see here. How do you like the TA44? I'm thinking of picking one up for my Six8 PDW, been torn between that and a TA33. i've only had it out one time so far and i love it, i bought it since my eyes are getting worse for distance and the astigmatism makes my aimpoints annoying. i zero'ed at 50 yards and even at 150-175 yards i was hitting cantaloupe sized rocks every shot. inside of 25 yards it felt nearly as fast and accurate as shooting with an RDS. took about 2 or 3 mags to get the feel for it but since i was a 2 eye open RDS shooter anyway it was a fast transition. is your PDWa shorty i can assume? i'd pick less magnification IMO. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 5:10:54 PM EDT
[#17]
I have both DI, a few, and a short stroke piston (AA) and have added/changed things, triggers, scopes, stocks, QD sling, BUIS, etc. and not with the lightest items and most on this forum would cringe at what weights my AR's are. But, in my 70's this ol man ain't gonna run/carry any of them any distance. I will just shoot from a sitting position or once in a blue moon offhand (which for me now is a challenge) or if the SHTF from a position of cover/concealment. Will let the younger lions do the heavy work, will just work on whatever gets through. Just the way things are for me at this stage. Already did that other hump duty. Since I didn't like it then, know I won't now (really can't).
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Posted: 10/28/2016 8:15:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i've only had it out one time so far and i love it, i bought it since my eyes are getting worse for distance and the astigmatism makes my aimpoints annoying. i zero'ed at 50 yards and even at 150-175 yards i was hitting cantaloupe sized rocks every shot. inside of 25 yards it felt nearly as fast and accurate as shooting with an RDS. took about 2 or 3 mags to get the feel for it but since i was a 2 eye open RDS shooter anyway it was a fast transition. is your PDWa shorty i can assume? i'd pick less magnification IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
evidently i'm fretting over nothing. i just weighed this LW with mag and ta44 and its the exact same as my favorite DI rifle, 18" GI barrel with centurion rail and aimpoint. move along, nothing more to see here. How do you like the TA44? I'm thinking of picking one up for my Six8 PDW, been torn between that and a TA33. i've only had it out one time so far and i love it, i bought it since my eyes are getting worse for distance and the astigmatism makes my aimpoints annoying. i zero'ed at 50 yards and even at 150-175 yards i was hitting cantaloupe sized rocks every shot. inside of 25 yards it felt nearly as fast and accurate as shooting with an RDS. took about 2 or 3 mags to get the feel for it but since i was a 2 eye open RDS shooter anyway it was a fast transition. is your PDWa shorty i can assume? i'd pick less magnification IMO. Yeah, my PDW is an 8.5'' barrel setup. Here is a pic of it 
I was leaning towards the TA33, in some ways, due to the ability to just use both eyes open and make it a pseudo red dot. Part of me enjoys having magnification, as a "just in case" thing. The TA44 probably makes more sense though. |
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Posted: 11/6/2016 1:57:38 AM EDT
[#19]
WTSHTF I'm holding my Ruger SR556-VT piston rifle with a 20 inch barrel and multiple add-ons that I feel like I might need, with a near complete disregard for weight. Weight be damned. I'd rather have something and not need it than need something and not have it, including a Trijicon scope, a Silencerco Hybrid can, and that's before you consider an armour carrier with a three litter camelbak, at least six 40 round mags, batteries, kabar, and that's also before you add in a heavy sidearm and mags. A rifle that runs cooler and cleaner can save you some cleaning gear weight too, if that's really a big deal to you, haha.
But I guess being 6' 2" and 285 lbs may play a part in my tendency to throw on a "Z-Day Load-Out" if you will, but again, I'll lug it rather than do without it. 
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Posted: 11/6/2016 10:30:37 AM EDT
[#20]
WTSHTF will we really be able to order spare parts?
If you are taking this path I suggest you have spares now no matter which system I have 10 ARs; 1 22LR, 1 heavy sniper, 3 PWS and 5 DI. I never shoot any of the DI. I run 2 older Mod 0 as trainers 3-5 times a week and almost never clean them. My primary SHTF gun is the PWS MK114 Mod 1 I have never had these so called proprietary parts wear out let alone fail and except for the different BCG Every other part is interchangeable so that is an absurd argument to us who know better The PWS piston is all but the same weight within ounces of a DI and neutrally balanced (Unlike almost all other pistons). It is certainly more money compared to a entry level AR But for similar quality higher end DI builds it is similar in cost and less money than most quality piston builds There is this fantasy about TEOTWAWKI where we are in the movie "The Road" or "The Book of Eli" I doubt anyone, certainly not me, will leave their home. Seriously, I am 67. Do you really think I am going to walk across the country with an AR15? I will survive or die where I am and if one PWS goes down I have 2 more and if they wear out after 200K rounds of killing zombies well, I have my DIs to fall back on assuming I have not died of malnutrition and I have a ton of spares for not only AR15s but K98k Mausers, Sig P2xx pistols, 1911s etc etc etc But for you guys that will be playing Eli on a mission, good luck with that |
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Posted: 11/6/2016 12:24:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WTSHTF will we really be able to order spare parts? If you are taking this path I suggest you have spares now no matter which system I have 10 ARs; 1 22LR, 1 heavy sniper, 3 PWS and 5 DI. I never shoot any of the DI. I run 2 older Mod 0 as trainers 3-5 times a week and almost never clean them. My primary SHTF gun is the PWS MK114 Mod 1 I have never had these so called proprietary parts wear out let alone fail and except for the different BCG Every other part is interchangeable so that is an absurd argument to us who know better The PWS piston is all but the same weight within ounces of a DI and neutrally balanced (Unlike almost all other pistons). It is certainly more money compared to a entry level AR But for similar quality higher end DI builds it is similar in cost and less money than most quality piston builds There is this fantasy about TEOTWAWKI where we are in the movie "The Road" or "The Book of Eli" I doubt anyone, certainly not me, will leave their home. Seriously, I am 67. Do you really think I am going to walk across the country with an AR15? I will survive or die where I am and if one PWS goes down I have 2 more and if they wear out after 200K rounds of killing zombies well, I have my DIs to fall back on assuming I have not died of malnutrition and I have a ton of spares for not only AR15s but K98k Mausers, Sig P2xx pistols, 1911s etc etc etc But for you guys that will be playing Eli on a mission, good luck with that Agreed. When I talk about lugging gear around, I mean around my property, or nearby for hunting, or to friends and family who live close by, etc. Bug in, not bug out. |
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Posted: 11/7/2016 4:22:08 PM EDT
[#22]
i know what your saying, the idea of living thru a movie scenario is unlikely BUT i long ago in a galaxy far far away, i read a comment that changed my way of thinking...."We suck as a species at figuring out what to do for high-impact but low-probability (p < 0.5) events"
since i have extra brain power not doing anything, i figured i could put some of it to use figuring out what to do. besides, its mental calisthenics for me....
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Posted: 11/7/2016 7:48:54 PM EDT
[#23]
I didn't read all the responses here, so hate to sound like a broke record... in any case...
A piston does not really weigh more than a DI. If it does, its super negligible and not likely a result of the weight of the piston components alone. Noticeable added weight might rather be in other components. I've learned that whatever weight that might be added from a piston (maybe 2-3oz?) can easily be made up for in the barrel contour and stock chosen... among many other optional components. Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. |
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Posted: 11/8/2016 1:11:12 PM EDT
[#24]
this is a very valid point and well worth consideration....
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. this on the other hand, is not. i've never owned an AR15 that wont shoot any high quality ammo reliably. sure i get different POI but thats a different matter. Quoted:
For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. |
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Posted: 11/8/2016 4:34:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this is a very valid point and well worth consideration.... this on the other hand, is not. i've never owned an AR15 that wont shoot any high quality ammo reliably. sure i get different POI but thats a different matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
this is a very valid point and well worth consideration.... Quoted:
Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. this on the other hand, is not. i've never owned an AR15 that wont shoot any high quality ammo reliably. sure i get different POI but thats a different matter. Quoted:
For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. Remember, EOTWAWKI, you will be reduced to shooting what you can find/scrounge. Not all of it will be [waterboy] high quality[/waterboy] ammo |
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Posted: 11/8/2016 4:46:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't read all the responses here, so hate to sound like a broke record... in any case... A piston does not really weigh more than a DI. If it does, its super negligible and not likely a result of the weight of the piston components alone. Noticeable added weight might rather be in other components. I've learned that whatever weight that might be added from a piston (maybe 2-3oz?) can easily be made up for in the barrel contour and stock chosen... among many other optional components. Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. It's not two or three oz. I have two of the same lightweight rifles that have the exact same parts minis the piston/di. It's about 6oz difference in weight, however both are under 5 pounds with an aimpoint micro t2 |
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Posted: 11/8/2016 5:52:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not two or three oz. I have two of the same lightweight rifles that have the exact same parts minis the piston/di. It's about 6oz difference in weight, however both are under 5 pounds with an aimpoint micro t2 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I didn't read all the responses here, so hate to sound like a broke record... in any case... A piston does not really weigh more than a DI. If it does, its super negligible and not likely a result of the weight of the piston components alone. Noticeable added weight might rather be in other components. I've learned that whatever weight that might be added from a piston (maybe 2-3oz?) can easily be made up for in the barrel contour and stock chosen... among many other optional components. Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. It's not two or three oz. I have two of the same lightweight rifles that have the exact same parts minis the piston/di. It's about 6oz difference in weight, however both are under 5 pounds with an aimpoint micro t2 What rifles are they? |
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Posted: 11/9/2016 10:30:30 AM EDT
[#28]
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What rifles are they? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I didn't read all the responses here, so hate to sound like a broke record... in any case... A piston does not really weigh more than a DI. If it does, its super negligible and not likely a result of the weight of the piston components alone. Noticeable added weight might rather be in other components. I've learned that whatever weight that might be added from a piston (maybe 2-3oz?) can easily be made up for in the barrel contour and stock chosen... among many other optional components. Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. It's not two or three oz. I have two of the same lightweight rifles that have the exact same parts minis the piston/di. It's about 6oz difference in weight, however both are under 5 pounds with an aimpoint micro t2 What rifles are they? I custom built them. So it's a mix and match of parts. I posted pics on one of the first few posts. |
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Posted: 11/9/2016 12:10:06 PM EDT
[#29]
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Remember, EOTWAWKI, you will be reduced to shooting what you can find/scrounge. Not all of it will be [waterboy] high quality[/waterboy] ammo Quote HistoryQuoted:
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this is a very valid point and well worth consideration.... Quoted:
Another thing to consider in response to your question is the following: If you intend to shoot more than say... 300 rounds per session in any given gun battle... chances are that you will not survive long enough to need to clean your gun. If you successfully fend off your adversaries within 300-500 rounds without getting knocked off yourself, then you should have plenty of time to clean your weapon before the next wave. However, running suppressed would certainly warrant a piston. this on the other hand, is not. i've never owned an AR15 that wont shoot any high quality ammo reliably. sure i get different POI but thats a different matter. Quoted:
For a really reliable setup, the most important thing is stocking up on a single ammo that you have thoroughly vetted. The minute you start jumping around between different brands of ammo (or even any variation in load/bullet/brass whatsoever) is when you will start running into problematic reliability issues. Remember, EOTWAWKI, you will be reduced to shooting what you can find/scrounge. Not all of it will be [waterboy] high quality[/waterboy] ammo this is a whole different subject and not relevant here but thanks. my rifles shoot shit steel ammo just fine. dont yours? |
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Posted: 11/10/2016 6:12:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryI custom built them. So it's a mix and match of parts.
I posted pics on one of the first few posts. I like your lower, especially the flared magwell. |
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Posted: 11/11/2016 8:22:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Any significant weight difference is in the barrel. A short stroke piston is no heaver than a DI.
My Adams Arms 16" mid-base rifle, weight: is 6.415 lbs as it comes from the factory. The lightest mass produced AR is probably the Windham Weaponry Carbon Fiber SRC Rifle, weight is 5.85lbs as it comes from the factory. Both are flat tops with M4-type butt stock with no sights, the AA has a full Gov't profile 16" barrel while the Windham has an M4 profile 16" barrel. Even the carbon fiber upper is not enough to make a significant weight difference. For comparison, a heavy barrel Dissipator is 7.75lbs. |
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Posted: 11/12/2016 1:15:40 PM EDT
[#32]
My 308 AR10 folder is 7.8lbs.
The only way to do it is a lighter barrel contour (3/4" gasblock instead of .875") and lighter stock (magpul CTR instead of UBR). I saved 1.5 lbs in that alone. |
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Posted: 1/2/2017 4:36:14 PM EDT
[#33]
All of my AR rifles are piston with the exception of my lone DI rifle, a Colt LE6920.
I have thought about the same scenario as the OP, and although my piston ARs have been nothing but completely reliable; if I could only have one rifle for a SHTF scenario, I would be tempted to take the Colt. The main reason for this thought is that with standard DI mil spec ARs, you have parts availability and parts commonality. That could prove extremely useful in a true survival situation. If one of my POF rifles broke down, I have all of the components to fix the piston system once. After that, I'm left with a club. My Colt is also lighter, which would make a difference if on the move. It has also been 100% completely reliable since I've owned it. So while I love my piston guns, in the end I would be very tempted to take my Colt LE6920 over any of them. |
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Posted: 1/6/2017 2:32:27 PM EDT
[#34]
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All of my AR rifles are piston with the exception of my lone DI rifle, a Colt LE6920. I have thought about the same scenario as the OP, and although my piston ARs have been nothing but completely reliable; if I could only have one rifle for a SHTF scenario, I would be tempted to take the Colt. The main reason for this thought is that with standard DI mil spec ARs, you have parts availability and parts commonality. That could prove extremely useful in a true survival situation. If one of my POF rifles broke down, I have all of the components to fix the piston system once. After that, I'm left with a club. My Colt is also lighter, which would make a difference if on the move. It has also been 100% completely reliable since I've owned it. So while I love my piston guns, in the end I would be very tempted to take my Colt LE6920 over any of them. Like some others pointed out above, but to be a but more detailed, the lack of replacement parts for a piston system is very limited, specifically to: The actual bolt carrier, which is a one piece setup in all but a few of the earliest piston systems, which eliminates the only realistic potential point of failure in the carrier - specially e. the gas key mounting bolts - and the actual operating rod(s) and gas block, with any parts that are used for adjusting the gas flow. Other than those parts, all of which should outlive the rest of your rifle, everything else is "standard" or whatever-you-wanna-call-it and interchangeable with any "mil-spec" replacements. In fact, many DI guns have proprietary factory and/or aftermarket parts that cannot be really replaced. Lastly, get your own spare parts, and stuff 'em in your stock, hang 'em on your belt, or more realistically maybe -just keep 'em at home. They should be with your cleaning supplies either way. Each of my ARs has a cleaning kit with a small parts (pins and springs) replacement kit, broken/stuck shell extractor, and spare batteries (if needed) in either the stock or forward pistol grip, as well as a complete bolt assembly with cam pin and firing pin in the rear (or only) pistol grip. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. |
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Posted: 1/6/2017 2:41:24 PM EDT
[#35]
...and to ensure that I am being completely and obviously repetitive, any weight difference between a DI and GP setup will be measured in low-single-digit ounces -all other things being equal.
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Posted: 3/8/2017 12:15:42 AM EDT
[#36]
Regarding your comment about having ammo on hand that you've vetted. I reload everything that I shoot- 22 rimfire excluded. All of my rifles are 1:7 twist so I started buying Sierra 77 gr HPBTs and developing a load that shoots accurately in all of my ARs a couple of years ago. Some sites like Diamond K brass stocks Lake City brass and every once in a while- they do a sale so I buy when they do. I'm 70 years old and I'm not running anywhere. My family has a plan just in case and it doesn't involve leaving home.
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Posted: 3/8/2017 11:34:44 AM EDT
[#37]
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Biggest downside in my opinion is non standard parts on piston guns. I can find di parts everywhere. If you can find enough spare parts in SHTF you probably will be able to build or find a complete DI upper. I guess what I am saying either there's going to be a lot of parts and guns lying around or none. The few that might have spare parts aren't going to part with them. I figure you have what you have. As far as spares keep what you think you need for whatever platform you are relying on. Most likely in SHTF you'll find .12 gauge, 30.30 and .243 spares. |
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Posted: 3/8/2017 5:49:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Maybe you should take a look at the M6-SL.....?
BTW, good luck finding parts in a SHTF |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 7:32:37 AM EDT
[#39]
The PWS mod 2 is about 6 pounds 2 ounces.
The proprietary parts deal is irrelevant as is the finding parts in a SHTF scenario. Nearly any rifle can malfunction. If the shiOt is hitting the fan, ya won't be driving to the gun store to find parts. Only a fool would not have a parts kit on hand for repairs or a backup carbine. For those that are not preparing ahead of the SHTF scenario, don't forget to buy bullets and mags |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 8:12:33 AM EDT
[#40]
For me parts compatibility is the biggest thing. Friends, family and I all have ARs. Most of us have multiple.
if you have a failure of the DI system you have a AR boltgun. If you have a failure of the piston system you most likely with be unable to fire. Just my $.02 |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 9:00:38 AM EDT
[#41]
Depends on the failure.
Most any failures with a piston gun would also mark it a "bolt action" as well. Remove the piston rod and press on. A smart man would simply grab another rifle. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 5:40:08 AM EDT
[#42]
I would choose a piston gun because you don`t need that much space to store lubricant can,
besides,in a doomsday you won`t have the mood cleaning or lubricating your gun as usual. Instead, most of the time will be finding food,water,shelter. |
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