User Panel
Quoted:
1: First and foremost the thing that angers me the most and this was addressed a long time ago, HK decided they wanted to change the dimensions of the Magwell. Why? With a STANAG dimension magazine inserted the standard magwell, too much dust, sand, and crud could enter into the upper receiver, even with the dust cover closed. HK could not control magazine dimensions, so they solved problem by making a tighter and longer magwell, that reduced the amount of dust and sand that entered into the receiver. I don't believe this is correct. The magwell was made to mimic the magwell setup on the SA80, which HK was working on an improvement package for which included a new magazine. The extended front of the magwell is needed to actuate a lever on a special blank-only magazine IIRC. Can't remember exactly where I got that info but it seemed well documented. The Bolt. Notice the differences? There is a lever that you lift to release the firing pin once the retaining pin is pulled out. The Bolt is spring loaded and the spring is located around the firing pin. The second picture you can see the hole and inside you can see the spring. Why is that hole there? No clue, maybe its for lubrication. The side of the bolt also does not have holes for lubrication from what i saw. Believe it or not...this BOLT itself is what you use to unscrew the Cross looking screw that holds the hand guard in place. I guess thats a good idea so you dont need an extra tool to get it out but i think it could have been done another way to minimize bolt face damage. The lever is actually a firing pin safety, more commonly encountered in pistols. The hole on the bottom of the bolt carrier IIRC is needed to machine the BC for the firing pin safety. |
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1: First and foremost the thing that angers me the most and this was addressed a long time ago, HK decided they wanted to change the dimensions of the Magwell. Why? With a STANAG dimension magazine inserted the standard magwell, too much dust, sand, and crud could enter into the upper receiver, even with the dust cover closed. HK could not control magazine dimensions, so they solved problem by making a tighter and longer magwell, that reduced the amount of dust and sand that entered into the receiver. I don't believe this is correct. The magwell was made to mimic the magwell setup on the SA80, which HK was working on an improvement package for which included a new magazine. The extended front of the magwell is needed to actuate a lever on a special blank-only magazine IIRC. Can't remember exactly where I got that info but it seemed well documented. The Bolt. Notice the differences? There is a lever that you lift to release the firing pin once the retaining pin is pulled out. The Bolt is spring loaded and the spring is located around the firing pin. The second picture you can see the hole and inside you can see the spring. Why is that hole there? No clue, maybe its for lubrication. The side of the bolt also does not have holes for lubrication from what i saw. Believe it or not...this BOLT itself is what you use to unscrew the Cross looking screw that holds the hand guard in place. I guess thats a good idea so you dont need an extra tool to get it out but i think it could have been done another way to minimize bolt face damage. The lever is actually a firing pin safety, more commonly encountered in pistols. The hole on the bottom of the bolt carrier IIRC is needed to machine the BC for the firing pin safety. hmm interesting on the SA80 part. I recall reading something like that somewhere but im not sure where so i couldnt quote it. Either way, the IAR predates the Pmag. Yes the firing pin safety is certainly an improvement incase of an AD. |
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That's a purdy rifle. But, isn't EVERYTHING issued to our troops supposed to be MADE IN THE U.S.A.? I noticed in the pic that it's stamped made in Germany. I'm just making an observation. Thanks DevilDog for your service and sacrifices though. You guys are the real hero's in this world.
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It just doesnt make sense to me why HK would take into account Pmags considering they are almost at the point of being the "standard" in M4/M16/AR-15 magazines, but of course everything is based of NATO standards so what can we do? Pmags didn't exist back then - the HK416 predates the Pmag by several years. A more relevant question is why Magpul ignored the incompatibilites with existing non-AR but STANAG-compliant weapon systems. Supposedly E-Mags work with this weapon, but i have not looked into it that much yet. I know Magpul designed these for foreign weapons and have won a contract as the standard issued mag for the British.
E-Mags work with both the HK416 and SA-80. Magpul has also recently recognized their mistake (or recognized the market shift, depending on how you want to interpret it), and for Gen 3 have redesigned their Pmag's to be fully compatible with rifles like the FN SCAR, FN FS2000, HK416, and SA-80 that are designed around the STANAG magazine spec. |
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The AG416 I believe is the same as the M320 as is now being issued to the Army. Got to handle some 320s at drill this weekend, and they rail mount, so I don't think there'd be any issues putting one on an M27
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Quoted: Quoted: 1: First and foremost the thing that angers me the most and this was addressed a long time ago, HK decided they wanted to change the dimensions of the Magwell. Why? With a STANAG dimension magazine inserted the standard magwell, too much dust, sand, and crud could enter into the upper receiver, even with the dust cover closed. HK could not control magazine dimensions, so they solved problem by making a tighter and longer magwell, that reduced the amount of dust and sand that entered into the receiver. I don't believe this is correct. The magwell was made to mimic the magwell setup on the SA80, which HK was working on an improvement package for which included a new magazine. The extended front of the magwell is needed to actuate a lever on a special blank-only magazine IIRC. Can't remember exactly where I got that info but it seemed well documented. The Bolt. Notice the differences? There is a lever that you lift to release the firing pin once the retaining pin is pulled out. The Bolt is spring loaded and the spring is located around the firing pin. The second picture you can see the hole and inside you can see the spring. Why is that hole there? No clue, maybe its for lubrication. The side of the bolt also does not have holes for lubrication from what i saw. Believe it or not...this BOLT itself is what you use to unscrew the Cross looking screw that holds the hand guard in place. I guess thats a good idea so you dont need an extra tool to get it out but i think it could have been done another way to minimize bolt face damage. The lever is actually a firing pin safety, more commonly encountered in pistols. The hole on the bottom of the bolt carrier IIRC is needed to machine the BC for the firing pin safety. Magpul stated that in a GD thread awhile ago. I asked one of the folks over on HKPro that was on the design team for the 416 about it and they stated that that was malarkey. The change made changing mags easier or some shit. It's the internet, who knows. The new PMAGs will work in the 416/IAR/MR556. Whenever they decide to release them. http://www.magpul.com/introducing-the-pmag-30-m3.html A re-designed bolt catch notch in the rear of the magazine allows increased bolt catch clearance, while an over-travel stop on the spine helps ensure the PMAG 30 M3 will not over-insert on compatible weapons, including the AR15/M16, HK 416, M27 IAR, British SA-80, FN SCAR MK 16/16S, and others. |
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Basically the E-Mag the same shit just dimensionally different to cater to the foreign weapons right?
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I am curious how much does the whole setup weigh loaded? Slightly under 10 lbs. The different is hardly noticable compared to a loaded M16A4. Obviously huge difference compared to the M4. Only thing is the M27 didnt have a PEQ-16 but im pretty sure they will add them on eventually. Ofc if you wanted to, you can take off the Harris Bipod and grip to lighten it but whats the point? Just another piece of gear getting lost. |
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Quoted: Basically the E-Mag the same shit just dimensionally different to cater to the foreign weapons right? Yup (well other than the price ) http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG241/2 I'm patiently waiting for the M3 though. |
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It just doesnt make sense to me why HK would take into account Pmags considering they are almost at the point of being the "standard" in M4/M16/AR-15 magazines, but of course everything is based of NATO standards so what can we do? Pmags didn't exist back then - the HK416 predates the Pmag by several years. A more relevant question is why Magpul ignored the incompatibilites with existing non-AR but STANAG-compliant weapon systems. Supposedly E-Mags work with this weapon, but i have not looked into it that much yet. I know Magpul designed these for foreign weapons and have won a contract as the standard issued mag for the British.
E-Mags work with both the HK416 and SA-80. Magpul has also recently recognized their mistake (or recognized the market shift, depending on how you want to interpret it), and for Gen 3 have redesigned their Pmag's to be fully compatible with rifles like the FN SCAR, FN FS2000, HK416, and SA-80 that are designed around the STANAG magazine spec. Magpul started by selling mags to cops and civilians and pursuing the US military market. The Emag was a success and now they are pursuing government contracts abroad. It's not a market shift because those weapons were in service. Since compared with the M4 there is next to no US market for exotics that isn't a good place to chase money. |
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Basically the E-Mag the same shit just dimensionally different to cater to the foreign weapons right? Pretty much. |
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I'm surprised by the bipods. Those are very nice bipods, from what it looks like its the ones that LaRue mod. Is there a reason why you expect it to break?
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I'm surprised by the bipods. Those are very nice bipods, from what it looks like its the ones that LaRue mod. Is there a reason why you expect it to break? Im basing this off of how much abuse a SAW gets. Despite the obvious weight difference in the M27, if these things get slammed around like the SAW did, i would expect to see replacement bipods at some time in the future. |
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I'm surprised by the bipods. Those are very nice bipods, from what it looks like its the ones that LaRue mod. Is there a reason why you expect it to break? Im basing this off of how much abuse a SAW gets. Despite the obvious weight difference in the M27, if these things get slammed around like the SAW did, i would expect to see replacement bipods at some time in the future. Well atleast you know the mount portion will hold up |
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Here you can find out why some things in M27 are as they are. And why HK did not made any significant changes from HK416 to M27. Interesting read:
http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1322 |
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Nice review it looks brand spanking new did you guys just get them?
Either way regardless though I still don't care for it. |
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The hole on the bottom of the bolt carrier IIRC is needed to machine the BC for the firing pin safety.
No. The hole on the bottom is a drain hole for water ala the OTB certified 416s. Same thing for the 3 holes at the rear of the receiver extension. Not sure if the IAR has these, but it seems HK has simplified manufacturing by putting these on most 416s not just the OTB certified ones. To the OP, not sure if you can get away with it in the USMC but the buttpad can be switched out to curve the other way (takes about 5 seconds). Its a $35 part. |
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beautiful machine, I have searched hard for the reason behind the magwell and have been told definitively several different things. None of them came from Oberndorf so I don't care what people's thoughts are. I just think it is odd and one of those things I know they wish they had not done. The AR was already the most stabilized magazine well on any modern firearm.
You can see that the Surefire 60 rd mags are different from the very first released pictures in the front area that nearly hits the loower, so they had made a tool change, and then it is so close that I don't think it worked 100 percent in the beginning. I love the weapon and I really love machine guns, the SADJ article with Robbie is good in the handling of open bolt and accuracy, Great things brough from the IAR 1-I still have no idea why the General Dynamics Ultimax didn't kill everyone. Probably because of semi auto vs. full auto being used but in full auto there is no weapon on the planet with the hitting capability and it already had a very successful high capacity system just a change with the mag well on it would have been needed. 2-Open bolt closed bolt-no doubt there have been all kinds of schemes, but FNH I think nailed it and any weapons in the future shoud use it as a father design legacy, atleast if you drop the thermal reg you can just have an external lever for the control, other wise an open/closed system is a nightmare waiting to happen. 3-great historical designs of feed systems are coming to market which are making modular feeding high capacity an assault weapon a much more attractive option to the light machine gun for troops around the world. I am glad it was picked althorugh I thought the now HAMR would do more of a M249 replacement but I understand the role change as well. If you can keep from cooking, you're much better off than going with open bolt, screw carrying extra barrels, I am not sure if that is even done that much anymore. Kind of unneeded to have both open bolt and extra barrels unless the guy needs a workout. |
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The hole on the bottom of the bolt carrier IIRC is needed to machine the BC for the firing pin safety.
No. The hole on the bottom is a drain hole for water ala the OTB certified 416s. Same thing for the 3 holes at the rear of the receiver extension. Not sure if the IAR has these, but it seems HK has simplified manufacturing by putting these on most 416s not just the OTB certified ones. M27 IAR is OTB rated by HK. Actually it kind of make sense with it being used by Marine Corps. |
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I don't know when the Surefire design was updated but the magazine in the picture is one of the first batch from Brownell's after the initial long backorder.
If the older ones don't fit, I bet there aren't more than a handfull floating around. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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M27 IAR is OTB rated by HK. Actually it kind of make sense with it being used by Marine Corps. Did not know that. Makes sense. Thanks for the info. |
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Pro's: Overall, in my honest opinion, it serves as an excellent General Purpose weapon somewhere in between the M4/M16 and the SAW. In a perfect world i would love to have all M16's replaced with the IAR and M4's replaced with a 14.5" HK416 with a TA31. The piston design in general whether it be on the 416 or any other after market AR-15 Piston kit, is a great idea. It was deemed too costly and H&K could not gear up to produce enough M27 to replace the A4/M4 in any reasonable amount of time. The A4 PIP with a free floating tube and collapsible stock gives you about 75 percent of what you get with an M27 at 25 percent of the cost. |
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It wouldn't surprise me if the Corps went to the M27 across the board...or a variant of it in the very near future. Just say'n.....
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It wouldn't surprise me if the Corps went to the M27 across the board...or a variant of it in the very near future. Just say'n..... Too expensive it was over a billion dollars to do and H&K would take something like 15-20 years to build the guns MCOTEA looked at it and compared it with several PIP built A4s they found they got 75 percent the performance at 25 percent the cost. |
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Has the Marine Corps decided to search for a replacement rifle or are they going along with the Army and the 2-tiered approach?
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Has the Marine Corps decided to search for a replacement rifle or are they going along with the Army and the 2-tiered approach? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a little more complicated, we are monitoring the IC but have somewhat committed to just PIPing our existing rifles and carbines with free floating tubes and new collapsible stocks for the A4s. |
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That's probably what the Army will end up doing since we're broke as a nation.
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Has the Marine Corps decided to search for a replacement rifle or are they going along with the Army and the 2-tiered approach? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a little more complicated, we are monitoring the IC but have somewhat committed to just PIPing our existing rifles and carbines with free floating tubes and new collapsible stocks for the A4s. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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It's a pretty neat weapon, I looked at 1 last year where I work. We stored some for the USMC when they were here doing some T&E on them, and got 1 of the young NCO's to let us look at it, broke down and such. He wouldn't let me take pictures of it for some reason, said it would violate some "opsec" stuff. I said OPSEC? You can go on the web and see more than I am looking at. Anyway, my biggest drawback to this system is that it's like a M1918A2 BAR....no quick change barrel, but they are wanting to replace the M249 with this? You can shoot only so many 30 rd mags thru them and they will start overheating...at least in a SAW, you can change the barrel every few minutes if needed, and spare barrels can be carried by the whole squad. Just my opinion, but overall, it's a good system, but I don't think the Army will adopt it...I could be wrong though.
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It's a pretty neat weapon, I looked at 1 last year where I work. We stored some for the USMC when they were here doing some T&E on them, and got 1 of the young NCO's to let us look at it, broke down and such. He wouldn't let me take pictures of it for some reason, said it would violate some "opsec" stuff. I said OPSEC? You can go on the web and see more than I am looking at. Anyway, my biggest drawback to this system is that it's like a M1918A2 BAR....no quick change barrel, but they are wanting to replace the M249 with this? You can shoot only so many 30 rd mags thru them and they will start overheating...at least in a SAW, you can change the barrel every few minutes if needed, and spare barrels can be carried by the whole squad. Just my opinion, but overall, it's a good system, but I don't think the Army will adopt it...I could be wrong though. During testing the M27 was able to fire off 3-5 rounds ever 5 seconds for 600 rounds without overheating. |
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It's a pretty neat weapon, I looked at 1 last year where I work. We stored some for the USMC when they were here doing some T&E on them, and got 1 of the young NCO's to let us look at it, broke down and such. He wouldn't let me take pictures of it for some reason, said it would violate some "opsec" stuff. I said OPSEC? You can go on the web and see more than I am looking at. Anyway, my biggest drawback to this system is that it's like a M1918A2 BAR....no quick change barrel, but they are wanting to replace the M249 with this? You can shoot only so many 30 rd mags thru them and they will start overheating...at least in a SAW, you can change the barrel every few minutes if needed, and spare barrels can be carried by the whole squad. Just my opinion, but overall, it's a good system, but I don't think the Army will adopt it...I could be wrong though. During testing the M27 was able to fire off 3-5 rounds ever 5 seconds for 600 rounds without overheating. In my opinion, that ain't a whole lot of ammo...180 rds per minute into 600 rds just isn't a sustained firefight. Right at 3 1/2 minutes +/- . After it's all said and done, and millions of taxpayer $ have been spent buying, testing and fielding this overpriced puppy, give me a M249 and spare barrels and the belted ammo anyday. |
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In my opinion, that ain't a whole lot of ammo...180 rds per minute into 600 rds just isn't a sustained firefight. Right at 3 1/2 minutes +/- . After it's all said and done, and millions of taxpayer $ have been spent buying, testing and fielding this overpriced puppy, give me a M249 and spare barrels and the belted ammo anyday. Where are you going to carry all that ammunition? |
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It's a pretty neat weapon, I looked at 1 last year where I work. We stored some for the USMC when they were here doing some T&E on them, and got 1 of the young NCO's to let us look at it, broke down and such. He wouldn't let me take pictures of it for some reason, said it would violate some "opsec" stuff. I said OPSEC? You can go on the web and see more than I am looking at. Anyway, my biggest drawback to this system is that it's like a M1918A2 BAR....no quick change barrel, but they are wanting to replace the M249 with this? You can shoot only so many 30 rd mags thru them and they will start overheating...at least in a SAW, you can change the barrel every few minutes if needed, and spare barrels can be carried by the whole squad. Just my opinion, but overall, it's a good system, but I don't think the Army will adopt it...I could be wrong though. During testing the M27 was able to fire off 3-5 rounds ever 5 seconds for 600 rounds without overheating. In my opinion, that ain't a whole lot of ammo...180 rds per minute into 600 rds just isn't a sustained firefight. Right at 3 1/2 minutes +/- . After it's all said and done, and millions of taxpayer $ have been spent buying, testing and fielding this overpriced puppy, give me a M249 and spare barrels and the belted ammo anyday. 600 rounds was used as the standard because that is the combat load of a SAW gunner |
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That's true...but aren't you forgetting the rest of the squad, or if they are mounted, the cans of 800 rds of linked 5.56mm sitting on that HUMVEE? I've carried 360 rds of 5.56 in 30 rd mags, 200 rds of 7.62 for the pig, and god knows what else you could put in a ruck. If that was all that was fired and used as a test standard, all I can say is that the test was rigged to pass. I've gone thru the above mentioned ammo load in about 12 minutes or so of good continous firing, and by the time cease fire was called, I had maybe 45 rds of 5.56 left and no 7.62. If each member in the squad carries a 200 rd drum of 5.56 with them, that ads up real quick when it needs to. The 1st few minutes of an engagement will probably determine the outcome of the fight. For those of you wondering, none of this was in a combat environment, it was in immediate action and movement to contact drills back in the early 1990's after Desert Storm was over. Not claiming to be a hardened trigger puller, but I've done my fair share of doing those drills. Just stating my opinion on the OP is all I am doing, hoping it adds to the discussion.
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for any active duty Marine out here, i have a question or 2;
is there any truth to rumors i've heard about you dropping the M16A4 and going with the army's M4 SOCOM? is there at truth to the rumor about switching to 1 in 9 twist rates due to barrels burning out too fast with 1in7? thanks. |
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No, both SYSCOM and PP&O are monitoring the IC program, but have neither comitted to it or believe the contract vehicle would be large enough for both services
I can tell you the exact percent of rebarrelled guns (pretty damn small) when I get to my work files, but for most part barrel wear is not a major concern within the Marine Corps add: "rifles are rebuilt at a 1.6% annual rate." |
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Neat stuff. I'm curious regarding the mechanism used to convert from closed bolt operation to open bolt. I'm familiar with the usual burst, full, and four position FCG's, but I've yet to see the FCG for the M27.
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Neat stuff. I'm curious regarding the mechanism used to convert from closed bolt operation to open bolt. I'm familiar with the usual burst, full, and four position FCG's, but I've yet to see the FCG for the M27. The M27 is a closed bolt weapon |
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Neat stuff. I'm curious regarding the mechanism used to convert from closed bolt operation to open bolt. I'm familiar with the usual burst, full, and four position FCG's, but I've yet to see the FCG for the M27. The M27 is a closed bolt weapon And that's what I get for not pulling information from more that one source. *facepalm* |
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*looks some more* So, after managing to pry my size 12EEE boot out of my mouth, I'm seeing now that what I thought was an M27 is actually a LWRC (is that correct?) I'm still interested in how that closed to open bolt mechanism functions, if someone could point me in the right direction I'd be mighty appreciative.
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appreciate the review OP, heard some stuff over on the Army side about this. a lot of BS and misinformation.
nice review OP, nice to get the skinny from someone operating the system. and to all the marines with first hand experience. I was concerned about the quick change barrel as well, being a machine gunner by trade...it piqued my interest. cool to hear the rates of fire it could sustain |
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The A4 PIP with a free floating tube and collapsible stock gives you about 75 percent of what you get with an M27 at 25 percent of the cost. Go to a medium profile barrel, 18" or so, and replace the burst FCG with Auto. M16A5 or whatever they want to call it. Problem solved. Probably the same cost as A4s with the rail handguards they're buying, and could rebuild old A2s or A4s also. |
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*looks some more* So, after managing to pry my size 12EEE boot out of my mouth, I'm seeing now that what I thought was an M27 is actually a LWRC (is that correct?) I'm still interested in how that closed to open bolt mechanism functions, if someone could point me in the right direction I'd be mighty appreciative. LWRC was one of the entrants for the IAR and have retained the IAR designation for the weapon. Colt, FN (which fires both open and closed bolt depending on temperature), and Ultimak, among others also develop and sell "IARs". The LWRC IAR has both open and closed bolt modes, but I am unsure of the mechanism to achieve this. The M27 HK IAR is a closed bolt rifle; in essence it's a standard HK416 with a 16" heavy barrel and long handguard. Nothing more. |
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